Crusade on London

[Morty]

Lame.

I am playing my English campaign and I had just destroyed the Scotts and was working on the Irish when I decided to go ahead and ignore the Pope and take Galoway. I was excommunicated for doing so. No big deal I'm thinking my leader is almost dead and so is the Pope. By the time I finish off the Irish I'll be reconcilled.

A few turns later someone, I suspect the French, called a Crusade on London... That is sooo stupid. Crusades were holy wars to protect pilgrims going to the holy lands and to counter balance Islamic expansion. What exactly are they crusading against? The English are Catholics. All Catholic countries should be immune to Crusades regardless of wether or not I'm excommunicated or not. By the same token I also think Orthordox countries should be immune to Crusades.

Morty

[nutranurse]

Well, you can try to rationale it on the fact that you were excommunicated and that the French may find you rather unfriendly and the Pope wants to expand his own power base into your nigh-impenetrable faction as a reason to call a crusade. They could have just said your current monarch is an apostate and went with that. There were more crusades than the ones in the Levant, I recall one somewhere in Southern France and another against the pagans in the Baltic region.

[The Pied Piper]

You are excommunicated and so a temporary amount of time you are out of communion with the Catholic church, meaning you are not Catholic. Even more so, the Pope is more concerned about the defense of his faithful or loyal Catholic subjects (in this case Ireland) than those who are out of favor and trying to harm those in favor so calling a Crusade or holy war against the "greedy and warmongering barbarians" is a just and valid weapon of war. And there are those slimy "faithful" Catholic kingdoms just chomping at the bit to take advantage of this opportunity, not just to help poor pitiful Ireland, but to grasp land from the enemy with the Pope's blessing before he allows you back into the Catholic fold.

So in other words, you are not Catholic at the moment and in the eyes of the rest of the Catholic world, just a tad better than a pagan kingdom if that.

[Morty]

I could "rationalize" a crusade being called on London any number of ways mentioned above or in some combination. In the end it just does not make any sense whatsoever.

Yes there were several crusades, most minor but they ALL used religion as the main rationale for legitimizing them. Take the first Jewish holocaust at the hands of Gottschalk and Folkmar and their "crusade" en route to the holy lands. Which started by some religious scrubs who managed to convince 10,000+ commoners that their vision of catholic purity rang true and commenced to rape, loot and pillage any and all jews en route from the rhineland to the holy lands. Fortunately they were massacred to the last man while in Hungary.

The only crusade that was diverted from their religious cause was the fourth. Which sacked Constantinople to pay off the Venetians. Since the Byzantines were orthodox the papacy turned a blind eye, ironic when you consider the rationale for the first crusade.

The papacy excommunicated Frederick II several times (popes kept dying off and they had to renew the excommunication) for heresy and even urged for crusades against the "blasphemous beast of the apocalypse". To which not a single nation state responded, ever. This against the backdrop of Frederick II beating the Lombards and practically surrounding Rome and only the Venitians (infamous meddlers that they were) left as the single independent Itatialian power urging the papacy along.

For a game and mod that are great sources of pretty accurate historical information and happenings this area is not to my personal liking. If I knew how to do it, I'd make it so that no province with X% catholic religion could be the target of any crusade unless owned by a Muslim or Pegan or maybe even an Orthodox but most certainly NOT against a current or excommunicated catholic.

People saw the papal urges for those types of crusades for what they were, political manueverings having nothing to do with catholisism. They didn't generate the religious zeal that the real crusades could use for cover.

While I realize the game lets us have fun remaking history I just do not buy into crusades against excommunicated catholics, from a historical point of view and my own personal preference.

I reloaded that end of turn and I wasn't crusaded on the reload and that is the one I will go with.

Morty

P.S. That was the first time I've been crusaded against as a Catholic power. Normally I send a diplomat in or my leader or the pope dies and I'm reconcilled.

[Morty]

Hehe Taiji,

Something I might consider doing the next time I plan on going deep into papal trouble is calling a crusade on someone THEN going on my catholic faction mission of mayhem. That way I'll be covered for at least 20 turns + however long it takes for the others to take my crusade target.

Thanks Xtiaan for bringing up the Norman invasion. After reading the cliff notes version of the events leading up to it I now see how powerful Alexander II's blessing of the Norman invasion and subsequent excommunication of Harold had. You learn something new every day . Papal santioning of invasions was the norm and while the invasion of England was grand it was not a crusade. Depending whom you ask, a crusade can mean many things, but one thing that makes them a "crusade" is their scale and the fact that they are multi national. Unlike the Norman "invasion" of England.

I guess you could stretch the French calling a crusade on London a Norman invasion part II. I just don't buy into European powers amassing thoasands of troops then sending them hundreds of miles away for what was/is clearly a catholic nation state on catholic nation state affair. Unless of course there is something in it for them...

Morty

[Taiji]

Being excommunicated in DLV is typically quite painful. The crusade is really easy to fix though, try to catch it as soon as it's called or all of europe will be at war with you. You only need to give london to some weak fool and then take it back, problem solved for however many turns.

The whole thing can be avoided if you manage to get your target excommunicated instead, go annoy him with a small army as soon as the pope threatens you

Whatever you do, do not attack the crusaders!!! All of europe will hate you forever! OK not really forever but it might seem that way.

[Xtiaan72]

Why is it lame?

Don't you know that The Pope excommunicated the Anglo-Saxon King of England....And that was the justification for the Norman invasion of England, Duke William even flew Papal banners at The Battle of Hastings. You've got to read up on your history man

[Elvallie]

There were more crusades than the middle eastern ones. In Scandinavia, for example. There is an Osprey Books Publishing book about that. The Scandinavian and Baltic Cruasdes.

Crusades: "[...]Between 1232 and 1234, there was a crusade against the Stedingers. This crusade was special, because the Stedingers were not heathens or heretics, but fellow Roman Catholics. They were free Frisian farmers who resented attempts of the count of Oldenburg and the archbishop Bremen-Hamburg to make an end to their freedoms. The archbishop excommunicated them, and Pope Gregory IX declared a crusade in 1232. The Stedingers were defeated in 1234.[...]"

So, it is not that stupid, you know.

[Kjertesvein]

I have to ask; did more nations, other then France, Irland, and other bad "relations"-factions go against you?

If I were crusaded upon, I would...

• Send every thing, that had 4 legs, against the pope.
• All my assassins at the Pope or crusading generals.
• I would block of roads, and send out scouts on the french lands to act as an innocent bi-stander. Beieng attaked by the false and greedy French Crusaders = adds my standings with the pope.
• Kill of my old grumpy pope-hating king.

[Xtiaan72]

Well, also France got a Papal blessing to commit complete genicide against the Cathers.... And the Pope sanctioned King Henry Plantagenet's invasion of Ireland just one generation after the conquest of England Apparently he didn't like how the Irish had a 'looser interpretation of the Catholic faith' then he was comfortable with.

To my eyes there is no difference between a 'Papal Sanction' and a crusade....If you were Muslim it was a 'Crusade' and if you were a 'Christian' it was a 'Papal Sanction. It basically amounts to the same thing, no?

[Morty]

I have to ask; did more nations, other then France, Irland, and other bad "relations"-factions go against you?

If I were crusaded upon, I would...

• Send every thing, that had 4 legs, against the pope.
• All my assassins at the Pope or crusading generals.
• I would block of roads, and send out scouts on the french lands to act as an innocent bi-stander. Beieng attaked by the false and greedy French Crusaders = adds my standings with the pope.
• Kill of my old grumpy pope-hating king.

I never got to find out Blackleaf-Willie, I was against the logic of a crusade against me and reloaded that end of turn. The reload yielded a new turn with no crusade. Now that I think more upon it though, I'm curious how things would have went. Since the AI is atrocious at amphibious assaults I don't think it would have gone well for them.

Morty

[Xtiaan72]

Geez, If the pope's were really responsible for all this carnage, how on earth could they be the representatives of a "Higher Power" that "Loves" mankind?

[Morty]

Geez, If the pope's were really responsible for all this carnage, how on earth could they be the representatives of a "Higher Power" that "Loves" mankind?

The reformation era (early 1500's) spawned all kinds of catholic offshoots that are still around today, Lutheran, Calvinist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Methodist, Puritan, Baptists, Adventist, Pentecostalist etc.

Some historic trivia/irony: The trailblazers were a couple of academic types from Oxford University who ended up getting themselves killed as heretics for debating a new term... nationalism --> Oxford had a good portion of its buildings constructed from some rich merchant who also paid a very hefty sum for some indulgences which required the catholic church to have several leity pray for him once a year at Oxford University for eternity --> Indulgences were what really ticked off Martin Luther, among other things, and started the Protestant movement.

Morty

[Xtiaan72]

The reformation era (early 1500's) spawned all kinds of catholic offshoots that are still around today, Lutheran, Calvinist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Methodist, Puritan, Baptists, Adventist, Pentecostalist etc.

Some historic trivia/irony: The trailblazers were a couple of academic types from Oxford University who ended up getting themselves killed as heretics for debating a new term... nationalism --> Oxford had a good portion of its buildings constructed from some rich merchant who also paid a very hefty sum for some indulgences which required the catholic church to have several leity pray for him once a year at Oxford University for eternity --> Indulgences were what really ticked off Martin Luther, among other things, and started the Protestant movement.

Morty

If you want to know something funny...I'm only 3rd generation American....My grandpa was from Ireland and was a 7th son of a 7th son.... They emigrated in 1914....My grandmother was from Sweden and emigrated in the 50's.....On her side, One of my direct ancestors was the first Arch-Bishop of the Lutheran Church of Sweden.

[Kjertesvein]

Sweden is such a petty kingdom, HA.

While Xtiaans grand father was sailing some small time cog, around the ocean, my granny was Chief-in-General(...and people ask me why I play Total war) during ww1 of Switzerland. Marrige the daughter of Wilhelm the secound of Germany. HA


I also had one side of the family that was a traiter to my country, and let Quisling(Hitlers lap dog in norway) in power during ww2....If I can just find a image....

[Xtiaan72]

I don't even know how we get along so well, you being a Smelly Whale Hunting Norwegian and all

[Morty]

Native american on my mothers side, which I can trace back to the first forced reservations in the 1800's and my father was a British mix.

The whole medieval era fascinates me along with most ancient history, with an emphasis on the religious goings on. I am a devout (pun intended) atheist however .

By the way, that merchant who paid for some of the Oxford Universities buildings still has those indulgences done for him to this very day. Just ask Richard Dawkins, he is one of the Oxford faculty that has something to do with making sure they are done once a year. Truly ironic when you consider who he is.

Morty

[Xtiaan72]

Native american on my mothers side, which I can trace back to the first forced reservations in the 1800's -
Morty

Let me guess.....Andrew Jackson and his illegal 'Removal' of the Cherokee from Georgia...Even though the supreme court said he couldn't do it.... He was closest thing America ever came to having a dictatorship

A very scary guy... Makes George Bush look like a 'Choir Boy'

[Morty]

I'm actually Sioux, specifically Rosebud Sioux, which derives its name from the reservation. Thats what a non native would call me at least. The word Sioux is actually a bastardization of a french colonial word meaning barbarian or a Pawnee word for snake, depending whom you ask. The Sioux don't call themselves Sioux, unless talking to non natives. I am Sicangu which is a sub tribe of Lakota which itself is a subtribe, one of the three main tribes that make up the "Sioux" nation.

I wasn't born on the reservation since they had no hospital, but in a nearby town called Burke in Gregory county. My mother was a registered tribe member and sponsored me when I came of age. The sponsoree must have verifiable 1/4 or greater Sioux bloodlines. Tragically my daughters do not qualify, since I've been deluted and my wife is not native. There are only 25,000 or so registered members alive today. The only "famous" person that I know of from my mothers side was Chief Stranger Horse.

Morty

[Kjertesvein]

Ohh, thread lightly... I guess that was not the big hug you were looking for.