What do you believe in?

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

This thread was locked, because "There is already a 424!! page long discussion on this in EMM", called "Existence of God". Interesting. Generally I am against megathreads, as they tend to devolve into something totally untraceable, i.e. responding to a post 100 pages ago. Even then, the locked topic was valid, given the poll options weren't asking just about the existence of god. One could argue that the existence of God isn't restricted to the belief of humans, nor it should be a "belief"; there are people who would say they know with the utmost certainty that God exists.

In any way, tertium datur, there is always a third option to the ever recurring circular debates of "God exists" vs. "No it doesn't exist, prove to me that God exists" arguments. In this case, belief in a Spirit or Life Force, metaphysical, binding, and ubiquitous power. An energy field that connects and sustains all living things. There's no denying that the concept of 'God' has been corroded with secularisation and as a result has become a terribly closed concept in the recent decades. Just like there's no denying that not all phenomena of the world can be explained by the scientific method, be it matieral or non-material phenomenon.

So here is my remake of that thread with some slight changes in the poll options (even though I don't view the first and second options as different substances), hopefully this won't get locked and discussion can continue.

[Rich86]

These threads won't work - this will become the very 'mega thread' you want to avoid.

One could argue that the existence of God isn't restricted to the belief of humans

You mean to say, wether or not God exists is not based upon wether or not humans believe in him/her/it? Nobody would really dispute that though...

there are people who would say they know with the utmost certainty that God exists

But there are likewise people who would say they know with the utmost certainty that aliens abduct cows and mess around with their reproductive organs. Someone claiming they just know something isn't much help with a question like this...

there is always a third option...In this case, belief in a Spirit or Life Force, metaphysical, binding, and ubiquitous power.

This third option seems almost identical however ;

a) I believe in God - a magical non-physical, all-powerful entity.
b) I believe in a magical non-physical all powerful thing.

That's how it seems to me.

there's no denying that not all phenomena of the world can be explained by the scientific method

Really? Why? Can you think of one phenomena which CANNOT be explained - and then tell us WHY you think the scientific method will NEVER be able to explain it?

[MaximiIian]

There's already several threads like this. Stickied ones are the Religious Profile Thread and that one other one with a poll.

In both I've made it abundantly clear that I am a hard polytheist.

[Pious Agnost]

I believe in a God that I can never comprehend.

Quite bleak, actually.

[Trey]

You know things have hit rock bottom when even God doesn't believe in himself.

[Djûn]

Pluralist Agnostic Theravada Buddhist with tendancies towards certain Mahayana Doctrines.

... If we're going for specificity.

As for the poll, I'm not sure what is meant by 'Spirit or Life Force'.

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

As for the poll, I'm not sure what is meant by 'Spirit or Life Force'.

I already explained that in the first post. A metaphysical, binding, and ubiquitous power, an energy field that connects and sustains all living things. "God" is the personalized version of the same kind of power.

There's already several threads like this. Stickied ones are the Religious Profile Thread and that one other one with a poll.

Yea, they are completely different topics. One asks about which church/religion committed to. The other one asks whether the existence of God can be justified, and how can it be justified. This one asks about your belief system.

These threads won't work - this will become the very 'mega thread' you want to avoid.

Negative thoughts have never moved things forward, so please keep it to yourself next time, kthx.

But there are likewise people who would say they know with the utmost certainty that aliens abduct cows and mess around with their reproductive organs. Someone claiming they just know something isn't much help with a question like this...

Silly beliefs do not constitute knowledge, whereas God can be justified through rational and logical argumentation. Before you ask how, please read Spinoza first.

This third option seems almost identical however ;

a) I believe in God - a magical non-physical, all-powerful entity.
b) I believe in a magical non-physical all powerful thing.

"Magic" is not a necessary attribute of God in many religions, whereas a life force can hold magical elements in some belief systems, so you made some hasty generalizations.

Really? Why? Can you think of one phenomena which CANNOT be explained - and then tell us WHY you think the scientific method will NEVER be able to explain it?

There are millions of phenomena just in the world of humans, where science fails to provide an answer, don't even need to go further.

[MaximiIian]

This one asks about your belief system

Again, that's what I thought the Religious Profile Thread was for.

But, fine. My belief system, in a nutshell, is a fairly conventional interpretation of thought and beliefs that existed in early Wicca during it's formative years in the 1930's, which were themselves based mostly on Hermetic beliefs and other schools of thought in Western esoterica, notably the Hermetic Golden Dawn and contemporary Celtic revival movements.
Wicca combined elements of the Western occult traditions, traditional folk magic practices, pagan revivalism, and British folklore; the historical context of this is crucial to understanding exactly what I mean.

Theologically, I am a panentheistic polytheist. I believe that there are a potentially infinite number of gods, some of which were described by past cultures and currently do interact with individuals; but generally they do not get involved in the universe beyond some intrinsic pantheistic quality each of them have. I believe that they exist simultaneously outside the universe and throughout it via natural phenomena and what the Romans called a genius loci, or spirit of a place; I think that, although each of the gods are individual entities with their own personalities, they are interconnected to a higher force or energy, which may or may not be conscious. Hermetic theology is similar, which holds that there are potentially infinite numerous gods whose presence is felt within the universe, through nature and natural phenomena, yet exist outside the universe as parts of a greater whole or All. The earliest Wiccan practitioners in the 1940's gave some extensive thought into this idea of The All, which has extended down to later writers and philosophers in the religion.

This greatly affects my interpretation of core concepts in Wicca, notably magical practices and the notion of a reincarnating spirit. I am of the belief that what is commonly referred to as a spirit or soul exists in two states- one immortal and outside of physical existence, and the physical manifestation of it, which I think of as some form of energy, probably thermal or electromagnetic in nature. This allows for the notion of a soul to not contradict with scientific understanding how the body functions, and also allows for the idea that all living beings have a soul. Hell, it also allows for a physical counterpart to reincarnation- that a body's chemical components decay upon the cessation of biological functioning.
My definition of magic is similar to the one set down by Western occultists in the late 19th century, "manipulation of physical forces to cause change in conformity with will", which posits magic as an inherently subtle phenomena dependent partly on the willpower of the practitioner. Again, most of the manipulation of physical forces probably involves electromagnetism on an exceptionally minute scale. On the other side of the coin, I have my doubts on certain kinds of magic practices that many other Wiccans take for granted (I swear, any time I hear the word "spellwork", I facepalm). So, most of the usual emblems and ideas associated with Western occult and esoterica, like the classical elements and alchemy and all that crap, I view as just entirely symbolic components of ritual practices.

However, my belief in the existence of the gods and my other beliefs don't really affect my view of science, unlike those of some other religious people. I fully accept and understand most scientific facts and theories, especially in biology; next to history, biology and chemistry are my favourite sciences. So, don't misunderstand my having beliefs as a lack of understanding for science and technology.
At the same time, I understand that most would think of my beliefs as strange. I don't think that everyone should hold the same beliefs as me, though, and I generally don't leap on someone for having unconventional beliefs; so, I ask the same courtesy and respect from anyone else who reads this, to be neither judgemental nor harsh in analysis.

Which only means science needs to broaden its horizon, just like it had to do many times in the past to make progress in human knowledge.

It's not a lack of horizons. It's merely a lack of data and the proper instruments to test numerous hypotheses and theories.

[Rich86]

Negative thoughts have never moved things forward, so please keep it to yourself next time, kthx.

No but they've stopped plenty of silly things from taking place

Silly beliefs do not constitute knowledge

I see - and who is it who decides what is a 'silly belief' and what is not a 'silly belief' ? Why is your belief not silly, but someone with the belief that aliens abduct cattle in possession of a silly belief?

God can be justified through rational and logical argumentation.

Justified? The idea that aliens might abduct cattle can likewise be 'justified' - what's your point? Your belief is just as silly as the belief about aliens.

"Magic" is not a necessary attribute of God in many religions, whereas a life force can hold magical elements in some belief systems, so you made some hasty generalizations.

I was trying to make a point quickly and in a slightly humurous fashion....

There are millions of phenomena just in the world of humans, where science fails to provide an answer, don't even need to go further.

You originally claimed that some phenomena cannot be explained with the scientific method. You are now saying that because science at this moment fails to provide an answer - that is sufficient to back up what you said? No answer now = no answer ever?

Just because science has no answer now does not mean it will NEVER have an answer.

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

Just because science has no answer now does not mean it will NEVER have an answer.

Which only means science needs to broaden its horizon, just like it had to do many times in the past to make progress in human knowledge.

[handsome pete]

in what way do you think science should broaden it's horizons ?

[Taiji]

I still haven't made the 'leap' but recently I have been toying with making a god. Of course I won't believe in it until it's complete though, so currently I guess I am a potential theist.

You have to have a really good idea of what would be good for you in order to make a god but I keep getting the feeling I'm missing something so belief seems a fair way off.

No chance I'll go with a ready made option though

[Ummon]

Don't forget buying make-a-god-faster-and-cheaper version 3.1.

[Garrigan]

Re: What do you believe in?

I believe whatever doesn't kill you, simply makes you...stranger.

[Rich86]

Which only means science needs to broaden its horizon, just like it had to do many times in the past to make progress in human knowledge.

Science doesn't need to broaden its horizons to answer some of our unsolved riddles though - does it? In some cases our questions are unanswered purely due to lack of data...not due to any problems with the scientific method.