I hate military cliches

[Hand of Nergal]

From the point of view of a vet, someone who has been in the military, its a little upsetting. I have tough skin so it doesnt bother me too much, but military cliches are like sterotypoes and can be very damaging. Its the reason why the defamation league is so against negative type casting of minorities in movies where the black or hispanic guy is often a mugger or rapist.

Even positive stereotypes can be damaging ('all Asians are good at math' sets the civil rights movement back fifty years because it reduces all individual Asians down to 'that guy who is good at math'. Its the old stereotypes that takes individuals and lumps thme all together as a group that is dmaging. Not all Asians are the same, and its the same way in the military.

It would not bother me so much if negative sterotypes would not hinder me from getting hired from a potential employer who thinks he knows ebverything about former Marines because of what he saw on TV, but some people out there actually ARE that ingnorant. Because of movies like Full Metal Jacket and A Few Goog Men, some people think that all Marines are squared away jarhead robots who get a hard on from killing and blood.

Maybe its good that some people (like out enemies) are convinced that we will eat their babies (yes, some people overseas actually think that we eat their children, its stupid but true), then maybe a potential enemy may become less likely to attack us or our allies in the future. Unfortunatey, in the meantime, we get singled out by the enemy and our own people alike. (A Marine barracks was blown up in Lebanon and there was a night club in North Carolina that denied Marine visitors because they believed us to be too rowdy. Let me dispel some myths.

1)Not all Marines are infantry.
Despite horrible movies like John Cena's 'Marine' we are not all juiced hyper-steroid supermen who are bullet/fire-proof commandos. There are over three hundred professions in the Corps, ranging from admin clerk to avionics technician(which is what I was). There are only six or maybe seven warfighting MOS's, and thats a very significant ratio. Yes, ALL Marines are riflemen, and yes, we are all heavily instilled with the Corp's old philosophy of killing America's enemies, we are an elite force. However, just keep in mind, that we don't all spend every day of the week drinking the blood of brown babies. Even most infantry guys spend most of their time drilling, in classes, in the field training, or out in the track physical training, or cleaning rifles, etc.

2)Not all Marines are crazy. We are not brainwashed zombies, we are not even all homogenized government issued retards, we are individulas with families and friends, and some of us have remarkable reasoning powers and opinions. We may not always get the freedom to voice our opinions, but we still have brains and hearts.

3)We hae not all been overseas, had sex with Phillipine prostitues, and covered with STD sores.
Seriously, some of us (unfortunately) have never even been overseas, as much as they might have wanted to (sigh). Some of us have only banged prostitutes on one continent, if any, and are completely free of STD sores(dang).

4)We have not all been in the field for three tours, lost a friend named Charlie, suffering from PTSD, and dress up in utilities on the weekend to impress chicks. Again, even if some do, not all, a stereotype is a sterotype is a sterotype.

5)We do not see red when we get angry and start murdering people senslessly, as much as I might want to, I love you civilians, as much as they completely dont understand what being a Marine even means, I dont.

If you want to know what its like, enlist or get a commission. If not, stop pretending that you know everything about us, cos you DONT. Stop spreading lies, try to keep an open mind. Im not asking you to kiss our ass, if you hate us, fine, we will still defend you when the times comes for it, just dont deny us any freedoms or rights (like being able to go into a bar unharassed) just because of what we do. Please.

[C-Rob]

number one is surprising to me. I'm sorry, I didn't know.

lol, my friend's uncle fits everything though. Makes me smile.

[Tiberius Tosi]

1)Not all Marines are infantry.
Despite horrible movies like John Cena's 'Marine' we are not all juiced hyper-steroid supermen who are bullet/fire-proof commandos.

Who do you think you are saying the Marine was a bad movie? That movie was Oscar-worthy.

Good valid points though. The misconception about Marines all being infantry is true. Marines are not freakish superhumans and (I have to say this and am gonna take some heat from Marines) are no better than any other branch, each does its own job to its full potential.

People making fun of stereotypical Vietnam vets with insane PTSD really tends to piss me off (I know I'm a hypocrit, as I have not served).
Stereotypes about certain branches being for pussies also pisses me off. When I tell people I am considering joining the Army, half the people go "oh your a pussy, join the Marines".

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

Who do you think you are saying the Marine was a bad movie? That movie was Oscar-worthy.

I don't know, I liked Full Metal Jacket better.







HARTMAN addresses the recruits.
The deadliest weapon in the world is a marine and his rifle. It is your killer instinct which must be harnessed if you expect to survive in combat. Your rifle is only a tool. It is a hard heart that kills. If your killer instincts are not clean and strong you will hesitate at the moment of truth. You will not kill. You will become dead marines. And then you will be in a world of . Because marines are not allowed to die without permission! Do you maggots understand?

RECRUITS

Sir, yes, sir!

HARTMAN
(chanting in cadence)

I love working for Uncle Sam!

RECRUITS
(chanting in cadence)
I love working for Uncle Sam!

HARTMAN

Lets me know just who I am!

RECRUITS

Lets me know just who I am!

HARTMAN

One, two, three, four! United States Marine Corps!

RECRUITS
One, two, three, four! United States Marine Corps!

HARTMAN
One, two, three, four! I love the Marine Corps!

RECRUITS
One, two, three, four! I love the Marine Corps.

HARTMAN
My Corps!

RECRUITS
My Corps!

HARTMAN
Your Corps!

RECRUITS
Your Corps!


HARTMAN
Our Corps!

RECRUITS
Our Corps!

HARTMAN
Marine Corps!

RECRUITS
Marine Corps!


Yeah, totally not brainwashing.

[Watchman]

Hartman is made of epic and win.

Anyway, marines are per definition infantry trained in amphibious operations ("Marines Also Ride In Navy Equipement", as it were ); the US ones tend to get employed a lot as as a light fast-response force, but that's largely due to the state's politics and the kind of inevitable necessity of having to literally ship the troops wherever they're supposed to do something...
Conversely for example the French mainly use their Foreign Legion for the same purpose, and IIRC it doesn't even *have* an amphibious component.

As for marines in general, eh. Pretty much any state that even has a coastline has those, or something functionally similar - for example, Finland has the Coastal Jaegers trained for operations in the peculiar conditions of the coastal archipelago zone.

By some definitions of "elite" - ie. given specialised extra training to be able to fill a role regular line units cannot - any marines are of course elite. But then, so are paras, ranger-type light infantry, "air assault" type heliborne infantry, dedicated mechanised formations...
IMHO the somewhat self-professed "elite" claim of the USMC is primarily a product of their own motivational conditioning, as well as the usual inter-service nose-lifting all arms engage in. Propagating a "we're teh best" mindset among the soldiers is of course useful for group-bonding, morale and confidence etc. - but by no means necessarily even remotely true.

[Hand of Nergal]

Yeah, Full Metal Jacket was kind of cool, but in does perpetuate some myths.
Boot camp=brainwashing? Bear in mind it was only a movie taking place in the Vietnam era. If you would like to see what boot camp is like you should enlist.

Seneca, I am surprised at your ignorance, but at least commend you for openly admitting your anti-military discrimination. I sincerely hope that I never have to seek employment from you. You are a poster boy for the people I target in the OP.

As for the nature of the US Marines being elite, they ARE. Yes, so is the French Foreign Legion, Royal Marines, 82nd Airborne, etc. Never siad they werent, doesnt detract from the Corps any, their record speaks for itself, they have a worldwide reputation for a reason.

Were called teufelhunden by Germans in WWI for a reason
Sank I dont know how many Japanese ships at Wake island alone
Turned the tide of Korean war with a single amphibious assault
Two Marine divisions pushed Iraqi army out of Kuwait in Persian Gulf war. At the time Sadaam had one of the biggest armies in the world.

Yeah, I take pride in the Coprs, and yes, it is good for morale. Guess what, they makes Marines better motivated and more deadly, it is a part of that esprit d' corps that makes us special.

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

Yeah, Full Metal Jacket was kind of cool, but in does perpetuate some myths.
Boot camp=brainwashing? Bear in mind it was only a movie taking place in the Vietnam era. If you would like to see what boot camp is like you should enlist.

Nergal, I respect anyone who serves his country and pursues a life of discipline. I also respect your diligence trying to debunk some urban myths about the Marines. I'm not stubborn in my views, I can be convinced, but I need actual proof, and I won't start to read up on it, simply because I don't have the time. Now, you started a thread open to all. When someone posts a view that counters your OP, you say "if you want to know what its like, enlist". This is not the way to deal with replies, throw out some substantial arguments please. As I said, I'm open-minded, and would like to hear your experiences about being a Marine. F.e. you said that Full Metal Jacket "perpetuate some myths", I can accept that, but I have to be convinced by facts, i.e. how does a training look like, what are you told etc. Saying that "go enlist" is not enough in my opinion.

[Watchman]

Two Marine divisions pushed Iraqi army out of Kuwait in Persian Gulf war. At the time Sadaam had one of the biggest armies in the world.

An army that for the most part could be politely described as "Third World goon squad crap", though, mostly made up of singularly unmotivated and poorly trained conscripts and in this case fighting at a virtually total technological inferiority.
Also largely blown to bits from the air before they even saw the Coalition land forces, most of the time, if memory serves.

Giving that sorry lot a whipping is not, frankly, much of a measure of anything. Did *any* of the "Western" forces involved in the war have meaningful difficulties rolling up their Iraqi opponents ?
Not that I know of...

Turned the tide of Korean war with a single amphibious assault

*cough* And what about the Army's 7th Infantry Division, and of course all the naval and air support...?

[Denny Crane!]

Seneca, I am surprised at your ignorance, but at least commend you for openly admitting your anti-military discrimination. I sincerely hope that I never have to seek employment from you. You are a poster boy for the people I target in the OP.

I'm not ignorant, ingnorant implies that I am ignoring or lacking information which I am not. I stand in a position that is ideologically and morally opposed but not ignorant. I can understand that you want to attack that position, you may even despise my position but calling me out on a lack of knowledge isn't the best idea since its not like I haven't looked into my ideas. I don't dislike marines or want to spit on them out of a fanatical hatred towards ''blah blah blah'' but it is a considered position.

As for discrimination, hell yeah, I firmly believe that it is a right of employers to be discriminatory in the interests of whatever the hell they want or will serve their business the best. Just like private property rights allow you to choose who you want in your house you should be able to choose who works for you. If they were definitely the best qualified and most likely to make me money, I might change my mind though i wouldn't really want a lot to do with them beyond a more than distant professionalism.

[Chaigidel]

nobody says you are? you have a false persecution complex to justify the stupidly evil things you do in the name of your nation.

all because some half wit hippy threw a turd in vietnam; you are chaps doing a job, nobody really thinks or cares about you otherwise, any moreso than anyone else on a factory line, or in a hospital-- its a critical job, a critical dirty job that nobody likes to do but that rich men like having access too-- in our military especially please dont about a goddamn thing, you signed up , so you take the good with the bad.

nobody stereotypes things they dont think or care anything about.

[Hand of Nergal]

nobody says you are? you have a false persecution complex to justify the stupidly evil things you do in the name of your nation.

all because some half wit hippy threw a turd in vietnam; you are chaps doing a job, nobody really thinks or cares about you otherwise, any moreso than anyone else on a factory line, or in a hospital-- its a critical job, a critical dirty job that nobody likes to do but that rich men like having access too-- in our military especially please dont about a goddamn thing, you signed up , so you take the good with the bad.

nobody stereotypes things they dont think or care anything about.

1)False persecution complex? Sooo...there arent anti-war protesters picketing in front of Marine recruitng offices in San Francisco and spitting on them? That blurs the line between free speech and persecution to me...

2)Justify stupid/evil things I do in in name of my nation? If you were against the thing in Iraq Ill agree with you, but I dont think that fixing the electronics on a Harrier jet is stupid or evil
Then again, I guess when we went to Germany to kill Nazis that was 'evil' too, just ask a holocaust survivor if they like the military.

3)Ill agree that I am just a chap doing a job, all I was saying was that it had some aweful stereotypes that DO affect how others see and treat us, your reaction is good proof of that. Oh, and as for people not stereotyping things they dont think or care about, when a nation is at war they do think a great deal about the military, duh!

[Dayman]

From the point of view of a vet, someone who has been in the military, its a little upsetting. I have tough skin so it doesnt bother me too much, but military cliches are like sterotypoes and can be very damaging. Its the reason why the defamation league is so against negative type casting of minorities in movies where the black or hispanic guy is often a mugger or rapist.

Even positive stereotypes can be damaging ('all Asians are good at math' sets the civil rights movement back fifty years because it reduces all individual Asians down to 'that guy who is good at math'. Its the old stereotypes that takes individuals and lumps thme all together as a group that is dmaging. Not all Asians are the same, and its the same way in the military.

It would not bother me so much if negative sterotypes would not hinder me from getting hired from a potential employer who thinks he knows ebverything about former Marines because of what he saw on TV, but some people out there actually ARE that ingnorant. Because of movies like Full Metal Jacket and A Few Goog Men, some people think that all Marines are squared away jarhead robots who get a hard on from killing and blood.

Maybe its good that some people (like out enemies) are convinced that we will eat their babies (yes, some people overseas actually think that we eat their children, its stupid but true), then maybe a potential enemy may become less likely to attack us or our allies in the future. Unfortunatey, in the meantime, we get singled out by the enemy and our own people alike. (A Marine barracks was blown up in Lebanon and there was a night club in North Carolina that denied Marine visitors because they believed us to be too rowdy. Let me dispel some myths.

1)Not all Marines are infantry.
Despite horrible movies like John Cena's 'Marine' we are not all juiced hyper-steroid supermen who are bullet/fire-proof commandos. There are over three hundred professions in the Corps, ranging from admin clerk to avionics technician(which is what I was). There are only six or maybe seven warfighting MOS's, and thats a very significant ratio. Yes, ALL Marines are riflemen, and yes, we are all heavily instilled with the Corp's old philosophy of killing America's enemies, we are an elite force. However, just keep in mind, that we don't all spend every day of the week drinking the blood of brown babies. Even most infantry guys spend most of their time drilling, in classes, in the field training, or out in the track physical training, or cleaning rifles, etc.

2)Not all Marines are crazy. We are not brainwashed zombies, we are not even all homogenized government issued retards, we are individulas with families and friends, and some of us have remarkable reasoning powers and opinions. We may not always get the freedom to voice our opinions, but we still have brains and hearts.

3)We hae not all been overseas, had sex with Phillipine prostitues, and covered with STD sores.
Seriously, some of us (unfortunately) have never even been overseas, as much as they might have wanted to (sigh). Some of us have only banged prostitutes on one continent, if any, and are completely free of STD sores(dang).

4)We have not all been in the field for three tours, lost a friend named Charlie, suffering from PTSD, and dress up in utilities on the weekend to impress chicks. Again, even if some do, not all, a stereotype is a sterotype is a sterotype.

5)We do not see red when we get angry and start murdering people senslessly, as much as I might want to, I love you civilians, as much as they completely dont understand what being a Marine even means, I dont.

If you want to know what its like, enlist or get a commission. If not, stop pretending that you know everything about us, cos you DONT. Stop spreading lies, try to keep an open mind. Im not asking you to kiss our ass, if you hate us, fine, we will still defend you when the times comes for it, just dont deny us any freedoms or rights (like being able to go into a bar unharassed) just because of what we do. Please.

If you don't mind me asking, what spurred this post?

[Hand of Nergal]

If you don't mind me asking, what spurred this post?

I dont mind, it was some fiction I read that completely got the military wrong. It was full of blaring inaccuracies that anyone who had taken their time to actually research would have known, but no one caught it or bothered to check.

It seems to be a tendency, people think that they know what the military is like even though less than 4% of the American population served. They just think they know because they have a friend/uncle/sibling in and they heard a total BS story and then make a mantra out of a stereotype. Its defaming at a certain point.

No, you're not.

uh, dude, yes we are...

[Manco]

we are an elite force.

No, you're not.

[Manco]

Marines aren't an elite unit. Where the hell do you get that crap?

[The Dude]

Marines aren't an elite unit. Where the hell do you get that crap?

Behold as the non-Marine tells the Marine what he isn't.

[Hand of Nergal]

Marines aren't an elite unit. Where the hell do you get that crap?

noun

1. People of the highest social level: aristocracy, blue blood, crème de la crème, flower, gentility, gentry, nobility, patriciate, quality, society, upper class, who's who. Informal upper crust. See over/under.
2. The superlative or most preferable part of something: best, choice, cream, crème de la crème, flower, pick, prize1, top. Idioms: cream of the crop, flower of the flock, pick of the bunchcrop. See better/worse.

Marines guard US embassies around the world
Marines guard nuclear depots
Marines guard naval vessels, air installations
Marines can be called in to go anywhere on the globe with a phone call from the preseident without Congress
Marines, ALL Marines, have to qualify with an M-16 up to 500 yards, regardless of MOS
Marines perfected the art of amphibious assault, invented Close Air Support, and vertical envelopment techniques.


The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of Marines.
Lord, how they could fight! [MGen. Frank E. Lowe, USA; Korea, 26
January 1952]



Marines know how to use their bayonets. Army bayonets may as well be
paperweights. [Navy Times; November 1994]



Why in hell can't the Army do it if the Marines can. They are the
same kind of men; why can't they be like Marines. [Gen. John J.
"Black Jack" Pershing, USA; 12 February 1918]



The United States Marine Corps, with it fiercely proud tradition of
excellence in combat, its hallowed rituals, and its unbending code
of honor, is part of the fabric of American myth. [Thomas E. Ricks;
Making the Corps, 1997]



The raising of that flag on Suribachi means a Marine Corps for the
next five hundred years. [James Forrestal, Secretary of the Navy; 23
February 1945 (the flag-raising on Iwo Jima had been immortalized in
a photograph by Associated Press photographer Joe Rosenthal)]



I have just returned from visiting the Marines at the front, and
there is not a finer fighting organization in the world! [Gen.
Douglas MacArthur, USA; Korea, 21 September 1950]



We have two companies of Marines running rampant all over the
northern half of this island, and three Army regiments pinned down in
the southwestern corner, doing nothing. What the hell is going on?
[Gen. John W. Vessey Jr., USA, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff;
during
the assault on Grenada, 1983]



Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a
difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem.
[Ronald Reagan, U.S. President; 1985]



Marines I see as two breeds, Rottweilers or Dobermans, because
Marines come in two varieties, big and mean, or skinny and mean.
They're aggressive on the attack and tenacious on defense. They've
got really short hair and they always go for the throat. [RAdm.
"Jay" R. Stark, USN; 10 November 1995]



They told (us) to open up the Embassy, or "we'll blow you away." And
then they looked up and saw the Marines on the roof with these
really big guns, and they said in Somali, "Igaralli ahow," which
means "Excuse me, I didn't mean it, my mistake." [Karen Aquilar, in
the U.S. Embassy; Mogadishu, Somalia, 1991]



Ten quotations by U.S. Marines



For over 221 years our Corps has done two things for this great
Nation. We make Marines, and we win battles. [Gen. Charles C.
Krulak, USMC (CMC); 5 May 1997]


Come on, you sons of es! Do you want to live forever? [GySgt.
Daniel J. "Dan" Daly, USMC; near Lucy-`le-Bocage as he led the 5th
Marines' attack into Belleau Wood, 6 June 1918]


Gone to Florida to fight the Indians. Will be back when the war is
over.
[Col. Archibald Henderson, USMC (CMC); in a note pinned to his office
door, 1836]

I dont even know why Im arguing with you, but, whatever...
believe whatever you want to believe, as a service branch, by definition, we are known worldwide to be elite

[Manco]

Oh sorry for using common sense. Separate units in the Marine Corps can be elite (like Force Recon), but can someone explain me how an entire branch can be considered elite? That would be 200.000 elite soldiers, even though that constitutes linguistics, air traffic controllers and cooks as well.

Even most combat specialisations aren't elite. A regular Marine Corps Rifleman is not substantially different than an Army Rifleman.

(and Hand of Nergal, elite in a military context does not simply mean good. Elite military units are SEAL's, Delta Force, Force Recon)

[Hand of Nergal]

Oh sorry for using common sense. Separate units in the Marine Corps can be elite (like Force Recon), but can someone explain me how an entire branch can be considered elite? That would be 200.000 elite soldiers, even though that constitutes linguistics, air traffic controllers and cooks as well.

Even most combat specialisations aren't elite. A regular Marine Corps Rifleman is not substantially different than an Army Rifleman.

(and Hand of Nergal, elite in a military context does not simply mean good. Elite military units are SEAL's, Delta Force, Force Recon)

dude, you are not using common sense if you are saying that a branch cannot be elite. I already told you how. We are not 200,000 soldiers, we are 200,000 Marines (Army has soldiers) Even our cooks have to go to combat training after boot camp, and even they have to quailify with a rifle at 500 yards, and they are trained to kill. A regular Marine rifleman is very different from an Army rifleman, (better shooting basically, different ethos and esprit d' corps, fighting spirit).

You just dont get it, do you?

[Manco]

dude, you are not using common sense if you are saying that a branch cannot be elite. I already told you how. We are not 200,000 soldiers, we are 200,000 Marines (Army has soldiers) Even our cooks have to go to combat training after boot camp, and even they have to quailify with a rifle at 500 yards, and they are trained to kill. A regular Marine rifleman is very different from an Army rifleman, (better shooting basically, different ethos and esprit d' corps, fighting spirit).

You just dont get it, do you?

So your entire argument rests on the fact that every Marine is a rifleman first?

That's just stupid. That only means you can all fight, it does not mean you are elite. Force Recon is elite, random Marine isn't.