Best animation pipeline?

[Bwian]

Most of the time I have been doing animation by the 'text editing' method, but this is not always the best way to do something.

So, when I decided that the Warpstorm had to have animated bowstrings, I was not expecting a difficult task on my hands ...

What is the best, simplest and most reliable way to do animations with extra bones?

I tried MS3D on it's own, using GOAT:
I had to have an extra bone, so I made that bit first. Then I extracted the skeleton and used GOAT to apply it to the stock animations. Them run animerge with the new animation and the new mesh. This gives me an MS3D file with the extra bone and the animation with that in. Next, I modify it and extract teh animation.
BROKEN.
The MS3D file has a problem with a hidden animation frame that you can't edit. It's fine as long as you don't need to edit it....but useless for most applications

Next, I tried Max, importing the MS3D file and modifying it in Max.
This appears to work...but teh end result in game has a major issue. I may have got this with the above method had it worked...I don't know.... but the bow on my archer now floats in the air.

I have had this happen before with modified animation sets and weapon bones .... but I have never seen this with a mesh that is attached to the hand bone! Grrrr

So...the question is, what is the best method to make these things work?

[Bwian]

Additional ...

The floating weapon happens whatever I do here. I just tried adding an extra bone to a human skeleton then exporting it to the stock bowman file, and it causes the weapon to move away from the hand.

Now...I know we had problems like this with the weapon bone...but this thing is attached to the hand bone.

So I converted the 'weapon' cas files to text and had a look. They each have a reference to the hand bone that holds the bow.... I can't apply the new skeleton to the weapon cas files and have the thing still work....every time I tried it, the thing wouldn't build the animation packs. So....the thing must be linked to the weapon bone ... or in this case, the left hand bone.

When I looked closely at the value for left hand, I spotted a BIG difference between this number and the one in the actual basepose for the model. Eureka moment....

I copied and pasted the basepose number into the weapon text file, converted back to CAS, and IT WORKED!

Yes folks, there is a cure for floating weapon syndrome

[Bwian]

OK .... now I am starting to get angry with this.

I have a reliable animation pipeline that works for non standard added bone skeletons. It works fine, and produces an animation that looks like it works. It works in aniimerge format, and it works OK with a model in the game that has not had the bone added.....which kind of defeats the object. It does, however, tell me that the animation itself is sound and should be accepted by the game. It just doesn't have a 'hook' to make a MESH move.

When I try and make a humanoid MESH file with the new bone in, however, I am getting a model that crashes the game. Not straight away, but after a fairly short random time. It does not link to a particular lod...I tried that...but I am stumped. I know there is something amiss here, as the 'new' mesh file with an extra bone is SMALLER than the old one.......

I do not seem to be able to make a MESH with extra bones that does not cause a crash. I am tied to using GOAT for this, as GOM's converter does not handle extra bones ... and I am stuck.

I KNOW this can be done, EB did it to make an archer with a moving string....and I have done everything BUT make a mesh that the animation will work with. Grrrr!!!

[Bwian]

The one-man thread continues....but in a productive way!

Having done some fairly exhaustive testing, and swapped a few pm's and e-mails with KnightErrant, it looks like we have pinned down what the problem is with this.

GrumpyOldMan's MESH converter handles the 'extra' bones for weapons and shields in a different way to KnightErrants GOAT toolbox. All the human models I had been working on had been converted to MS3D format using hte GOM tool. As soon as I start adding bones in, I then had to use GOAT instead....and using a GOM originated model for back conversion to MESH through GOAT was the root of my problem.

I am going to run further tests tonight starting with a model converted from MESH via GOAT and see if the results are better.

The moral of this story is

Don't mix your tools!

This would also explain why GOAT had been rock solid on mounts, but flipped out as soon as I tried it on humans. Any additional bones had to sit at the end of ht bone chain...but BEFORE the weapon/shield ones. The cross-format issue messed this up, and the crashes I had were the result.

By tonight, I'll either be a happy man, or a depressed one firing off more PM's ..... fingers crossed.

Oh yes...if this works, I will be working it up as a tutorial to show the basic animation pipeline and hte process for animation where non-standard skeletons are concerned.

[Caesar Clivus]

It may be a one-man thread Bwian but I have been very interested in your findings. I would've contributed but I know absolutely nothing about animation

[Eothese]

Me too, I did reply here once but the post is gone. So congratulations in advance for your break-through. Never mix your tools!! I would love a tut on animations because I could do with some anims for a boulder throwing Ogre... Although I could also do with a model for a boulder throwing Ogre, so no hurry.

[King Kong]

Same here. Another lost post...
I have also read your one-man thread with big interest and I would really looking forward to a complete animation tutorial.
Besides, I think it was a one-man thread because I think you are probably the only good and experimental animator here.

And didn't you say something of a two-handed rock throwing animation? This would be really amazing and I think a lot of fantasy mods could use such an animation.

Btw, I think I have better chances to ask you this directly, so do you know how/where I can change the model and animation for projectiles, for example arrows, javelins, naphta bombs, etc...?

[Eothese]

Well I'll give that one a shot, at least the where... models_effects contains the .cas files for the projectiles as referenced in the descr_projectile model line, this is where the newer projectiles like the naptha bomb are. There are also some files that appear to be left over from RTW in the models_missile, this is where the arrows and javelins etc, are.

Maybe you could convert some of the .mesh files in the weapons_library into .cas and make your new projectiles that way?

PS. Any chance of a reply to that pm I sent over permission KK?

[Bwian]

Annoyingly, I posted a tutorial on the day the board went down, and that died a death in the restore. I will find the time to put it back up. It was a step by step through what I did to change the archer animations and gives a reliable pipeline for animation that I have used and tested.

I have ironed out hte bugs, and understand a lot more about why the tools were breaking and how you avoid htat happening. Ultimately, these are not commercial tools, and have been put together by individuals with a desire to make things work, not professional teams with full access to all the code, data etc. so it is to be expected that they will be less tolerant of mis-use. The advantage of a tutorial is that it gives a chance to share the info gained from trial and error! Animation really isn;t as hard as it might appear at first!

For the rock thrower, I will use hte javelinman animation as a start point. The right arm is throwing in a way that would work for a rock...it would just need to have the left arm mirror that action, and have any twist of hte torso removed. Again, as it's a missile animation, the bulk of the animations can stay as they are, and it just needs the ready, hold and release ones changed. The hand shape would be set in the model, and the missile likewise.

Game-engine-wise, I have never seen any animation in the actual projectiles, though I wish there was! I have not delved deeply into the projectiles, but it looks to work much the same as the RTW system. You have a physical projectile ( as Eothese mentioned) and particle effects for trails. That's about it. When a model launches a missile, the animation routine for the missile_release plays, and the game engine spawns a projectile that heads away from the point of launch. The synchronisation between the two is not always perfect, and you can see with archers, for example, arrows do not leave from the bow, but from somewhere just in front of hte soldier model. Same applies for javelins. Ideally, you want your missile model to be the exact twin of ht eone in your soldier mesh.... but again, CA have taken shortcuts with this to reduce the number of javelins etc. that are needed, and all the throwers models are different, but hte missile they launch common to all. You don't notice it in game really.

A new projectile would be needed for a eock thrower, or you could use the one from the catapult...though I suspect a new one would be needed to tone down how far you could throw it! Also, as a person launched weapon, it could not target gates or towers.

[Eothese]

I know what you mean about a missle unit not being able to target walls, but thinking it through a little... I think a stripped down holy cart packed with boulders and used as an 'ammo cart' for each unit member to start with. (With the crewmen being Ogre's or Troll's etc.) Then the engine crew anim's swapped for javelin or a new 2-handed throwing anim. (Or the pile of cannon balls included in the bombard etc, could possibly be used instead of a cart).

The engine would probably have to be given an attack value, but it could be made to look like the crew were pushing there carts of boulders then stopping, picking up a boulder from their supply and launching it 2-handed at castle walls or enemy units alike.

I know it sounds a little bit of a tall order, but from the stuff I've done with engines and projectiles, I think it should work...

[King Kong]

Thanks for your replies regarding the projectiles, Bwian and Eothese.
At least I know now where the projectiles are, but it really seems that there is no animation for them. I have already managed to change a naphta thrower to a big rock-throwing ent (I simply exchanged the naphta model with the rock-model), but it still looks pretty weird.


@Eothese
I hope that your idea to change artillery-crews to a rock throwing Oger/troll/ent would be possible, similar to Bwian's 'elephant trolls', but I still do not have really an idea how I could do this.
And sorry if I havn't replied to your pm, but I must have forgotten it, which was not intended. So, just send me the pm again...

[Eothese]

#KK,
No problem, I can understand how many pm's you must get, So I sent you another.

Anyway here's my progress report, just to prove I'm not insane... I hope you don't mind that I post this here Bwian...
Siege engines replaced with a boulders, well an untexured cannon ball from the unit_models/equipment_library (I think any mesh would do...)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This also includes all crew loading and firing anims changed for Javelin throwing anims, however the crew only shuffle back and forwards as the 'engine' fires. All the engine anims are set to idle...

End result.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Not brilliant, but for an hours work and only 1 CTD on the way its my kind of progress...
With the crew anims adressed properly this should be a half decent workaround.

#Edit
Ok a little later and here is a refined version.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In the battle_models.db I changed the AS trebuchet crew anim from M2TW_trebuschet to M2TW_fast_javelin and got a proper throwing action, albeit 1 handed. Although there is still some 'pushing' animation.

A few minor problems;
1) The engine anims need to be left as in the original or you lose the ability to target walls, no real problem there. The Cannon balls remain static anyway.
2) Not everyone fires.
3) Some crewmen die when they throw their own rock, probably a missile_poss problem, that can hopefully be ironed out.
4) In custom battle at least, you still need some 'built' siege equipment.
5) That 'pushing' animation, almost ruins the effect.

I understand that it is possible to edit a mesh so that in game it is invisible? That would be better than seeing the cannon ball. Or I guess a 'dot' sized mesh could be used instead.

In conclusion, with some more testing and refinement, this should work very well. With some giant sized, 2 handed throwing anims created, this should work perfectly.

Does anyone know what the following refers to in descr_engines
sa_range 50.0
sa_friendly_range 75.0