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  1. #1
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Free energy debate

    Mylows magnet motor was a hoax, in a long list of hoaxes this is the one no one really wanted to believe. God damn shame but there you are... while reading about that hoax I came across this:

    http://www.examiner.com/x-2383-Honol...nergy-machines

    An experimental nuclear physicist has written an Open Letter to world renowned physicist, Dr Michio Kaku, challenging his dismissal of non-conventional energy devices - more popularly known as “free energy” machines. In a Coast to Coast AM radio interview on April 18, 2009, Dr Kako dismissed free energy machines as impossible due to their violation of energy conservation laws. Dr Robert Koontz, a nuclear physicist who has worked in various government projects and held Top Secret classification, pointed out the fallacies in Dr Kako’s thinking. Dr Kaku, according to Dr Koontz, needs to reconsider the feasibility of non-conventional energy devices. Otherwise he may suffer the same fate as early scientific critics of the Wright Brothers - critics dismissed the idea of heavier-than-air flying machines as impossible.
    Dr Koontz begins his May 15 Open Letter:
    Recently, on the popular late-night radio program, "Coast to Coast AM," which reportedly has a listening audience of millions, you indicated that investors call you up daily and ask whether certain inventions will work. Characterizing those devices as "perpetual motion machines" you said they were impossible to make.
    Dr Kaku’s dismissal is based on energy conservation laws that are based on the scientific belief that energy can only ever be converted from one state to another. This leads to the view that the amount of energy in the universe remains constant, and no energy is ever lost or created. The idea that a machine can be created which generates more energy than it consumes to run forever has been deemed to be scientifically impossible. The idea of perpetual motion machines has long been discredited and has been used as a kind of scientific slight against those proposing non-conventional energy devices. It is this rigid scientific viewpoint that Dr Koontz directly challenges and goes on to say:
    Dr. Kaku: You appear to believe that the universe has 11 dimensions, many of which are supposed to be hidden. Why would that be true while creation of energy using negative mass electrons or using gauge transformations would be impossible? Could you be wrong, sir? Undoubtedly you think you are not wrong, but could you be wrong, sir? You might say to me that negative mass electrons have never been seen. But those many dimensions you believe in have never been seen either. And is it not true that we physicists for decades have used negative mass electrons in our theories in order to reach agreement with experiment?
    Dr Koontz’s reference to negative mass electrons is one way in which he believes energy conservation laws can be maintained in an unconventional energy device. He goes on to cite the work of Nobel Prize winning physicists, Dr Paul Dirac, who was the first to introduce negative mass electrons.
    When Paul Dirac, the Nobel prize-winning physicist was developing the first form of relativistic quantum mechanics he found it necessary to introduce the concept of negative mass electrons. This subsequently led Dirac to develop the idea that a hole in a sea of negative mass electrons corresponded to a positron, otherwise known as an antielectron. Some years later the positron was observed and Dirac won the Nobel prize.
    Another way for an unconventional or “free energy” device to work is for it to use rotating electromagnetic fields using magnets, plasma, or other electrical conductors. This creates what is called a “torsion field” where energy is generated from the rotating objects. According to Dr Elizabeth Rauscher and Nassim Haramein from the Resonance Project, torsion fields power all known rotating objects in the universe from suns and galaxies, to atoms.
    Other physicists point to a zero point energy field where a quantum flux creates virtually unlimited energy. Essentially, free or "zero point" energy comes out of the vacuum of space in a manner similar to a bottle of soda that is shaken and opened. This was first theorized by the Dutch physicist Dr Hendrik Casimir in 1948 and later experimentally confirmed. The Casimir Effect is now used in nanotechnology to power microcircuits.
    If an unconventional energy device uses negative mass electrons, as Dr Koontz claims, then the energy conservation laws of physics may well be maintained. If “free energy” devices use rotating magnetic fields or zero point energy, there appears to be no way energy conservation laws can be maintained unless one considers energy moving between dimensions. Interestingly, Dr Kaku believes that 11 dimensions exist - some of which are obviously beyond human perception. If so, there are a number of ways in which the energy conservation laws of physics can be maintained across the “omniverse’ of 11 dimensions while considering the feasibility of unconventional energy devices. Perhaps we’ll find some answers if and when Dr Kaku responds to Dr Koontz’s challenge.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Free energy debate

    We don't really need perpetual, 100 percent efficient machines to get loads of free energy. Just need to be creative about geothermal devices and produce better generators.

  3. #3
    Simetrical's Avatar Former Chief Technician
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    Default Re: Free energy debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    Otherwise he may suffer the same fate as early scientific critics of the Wright Brothers - critics dismissed the idea of heavier-than-air flying machines as impossible.
    Those critics were using their intuition, not solid scientific principles that had held up for centuries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    Dr. Kaku: You appear to believe that the universe has 11 dimensions, many of which are supposed to be hidden. Why would that be true while creation of energy using negative mass electrons or using gauge transformations would be impossible?
    This is a non sequitur. Most string theorists admit that their theory isn't proven yet, too, or at least I hope so ― unlike conservation of energy.

    It's worth pointing out that this particular critic might not actually be a crackpot. He does hold a Ph.D. in physics, and the mechanisms he's researching might (from what I've heard) actually be physically plausible. So some of his attacks on Kaku might be misdirected. I don't know if he would actually group this guy together with the crackpots who call him all the time. I'm not sure I would, for one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    Another way for an unconventional or “free energy” device to work is for it to use rotating electromagnetic fields using magnets, plasma, or other electrical conductors. This creates what is called a “torsion field” where energy is generated from the rotating objects. According to Dr Elizabeth Rauscher and Nassim Haramein from the Resonance Project, torsion fields power all known rotating objects in the universe from suns and galaxies, to atoms.
    That sounds like crackpottery to me. For one thing, Wikipedia says torsion fields are baloney.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    Other physicists point to a zero point energy field where a quantum flux creates virtually unlimited energy. Essentially, free or "zero point" energy comes out of the vacuum of space in a manner similar to a bottle of soda that is shaken and opened. This was first theorized by the Dutch physicist Dr Hendrik Casimir in 1948 and later experimentally confirmed. The Casimir Effect is now used in nanotechnology to power microcircuits.
    I've heard it claimed that some respectable physicists think this might be a worthwhile direction of research.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    If an unconventional energy device uses negative mass electrons, as Dr Koontz claims, then the energy conservation laws of physics may well be maintained.
    In which case it's not really a free energy device at all. I mean, if you get an electron with negative mass, just dump it in outer space next to a normal electron. The Coulomb force will be repulsive, but since F = ma, the acceleration of the negative-mass particle will cause it to chase the positive-mass particle as it moves away.

    They'll end up accelerating in the same direction at the same distance from each other forever, reaching arbitrarily high speed without any energy input. But conservative of energy is conserved, since the kinetic energy of the negative-mass electron is exactly the negative of that of the positive-mass one. Momentum is conserved for the same reason. So no physics being violated here ― if you can actually get a negative-mass electron into this situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Playfishpaste View Post
    We don't really need perpetual, 100 percent efficient machines to get loads of free energy. Just need to be creative about geothermal devices and produce better generators.
    That's a point I always make as well. Who cares? For engineering purposes, cost per watt is what really matters, not theoretical physical efficiency. A free-energy device is practically useless unless it produces its energy more cheaply than the competitors, or otherwise more advantageously.
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    Wild Bill Kelso's Avatar Protist Slayer
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    Default Re: Free energy debate

    The guy was on coast to coast AM. That fact alone says all that I need to know.
    Still here since December 2002
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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Free energy debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Bill Kelso View Post
    The guy was on coast to coast AM. That fact alone says all that I need to know.
    Not respectable?

    Edit to all: I'm not particularly advocating any of this stuff I don't know enough to have an informed opinion but I do like reading other peoples opinions who do know a little more about it than me.

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    Default Re: Free energy debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Bill Kelso View Post
    The guy was on coast to coast AM. That fact alone says all that I need to know.
    I don't know what that means, but Michio Kaku is a fairly big-name string theorist. He's a professor at City College, actually, which I just graduated from.
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    Default Re: Free energy debate

    Perhaps we’ll find some answers if and when Dr Kaku responds to Dr Koontz’s challenge.
    Science is not a forensics debate, physics perhaps, but even in that field you have eventually get around to physically testing theory (when they can scrounge up a few hundred billion dollars). If "free-energy" is a reality, then it can be demostrated repeatedly and on a large scale. If it can't, then its not science.

    (Sim's point on practicality is also on the mark.)

  8. #8
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Free energy debate

    Harness the Sun. It's the most powerful and abundant power source we have, yet we are so dumb not to use it.

  9. #9
    Wild Bill Kelso's Avatar Protist Slayer
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    Default Re: Free energy debate

    Well maybe old Art (if he is still the host) has managed to have a few reputable guests. But I used to listen to his show for laughs and the usual guests and callers where either huge conspiracy theorists, alien abductees or victims of demonic interference.
    Still here since December 2002
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    Default Re: Free energy debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Holger Danske View Post
    Harness the Sun. It's the most powerful and abundant power source we have, yet we are so dumb not to use it.
    Solar energy is not the answer to all our problems until solar cell technology improves. It's still more expensive than things like fossil fuels unless heavily subsidized, and it's not practical for cars (except indirectly through batteries, hydrogen fuel, etc.). There is no magic solution here. We need to go with what's most economically efficient at any given time, and invest in developing more efficient ways to harvest energy in the future.

    The most abundant energy source we know is theoretically available on Earth isn't solar energy, it's fusion energy. The maximum power that you could get from the Sun is only 150 PW or something. That's only 10,000 times current global human power usage. Fusion could, in principle, provide as much power as we have fusion plants, until we exhaust the Earth's hydrogen supply.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Bill Kelso View Post
    Well maybe old Art (if he is still the host) has managed to have a few reputable guests. But I used to listen to his show for laughs and the usual guests and callers where either huge conspiracy theorists, alien abductees or victims of demonic interference.
    Michio Kaku is definitely reputable. I've read one of his popular books, and it was pretty good.
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  11. #11
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Free energy debate

    In theory isn't an answer though, market forces will determine the answers for what will create the independance from oil unless the state bollocks it up through subsidies. As long as fusion is a theory (like free energy or ZP or whatever) its all a pipe dream though one worth pursuing.

    As was pointed out on the forums though no serious solutions will be implemented until the real cost of a barrel of oil rises high enough (ie above the 40 dollar mark)

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    Simetrical's Avatar Former Chief Technician
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    Default Re: Free energy debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    In theory isn't an answer though, market forces will determine the answers for what will create the independance from oil unless the state bollocks it up through subsidies.
    I don't think independence from oil is really a worthwhile goal per se. We should use the best available sources of energy. As long as that's oil, there's nothing wrong with using oil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    As long as fusion is a theory (like free energy or ZP or whatever) its all a pipe dream though one worth pursuing.
    Fusion is not a theory. We know that fusion power works: the Sun runs on it, for instance. We also have man-made fusion reactors that work perfectly well ― ITER, for instance. It's very far from being a practical energy source, but there's good theoretical reason to believe it might eventually become one, with enough engineering. My point was that solar power is not ideal, it just might end up being one of the best power sources for a while beginning in the next few decades.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    As was pointed out on the forums though no serious solutions will be implemented until the real cost of a barrel of oil rises high enough (ie above the 40 dollar mark)
    That's not true. New solutions will be widely implemented whenever they're cheaper than existing ones. People will start using battery-powered cars, for instance, when that's cheaper and otherwise uniformly superior to using gas-powered cars. That might occur because gas-powered cars become more expensive for any reason (more expensive oil, carbon taxes, tighter regulations, etc.), or because battery-powered cars become cheaper for any reason (cheaper batteries, cheaper outlet power, more convenient ways to refuel, longer battery life, government subsidies, etc.), or any combination of the two.
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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Free energy debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical View Post
    I don't think independence from oil is really a worthwhile goal per se. We should use the best available sources of energy. As long as that's oil, there's nothing wrong with using oil.
    Which is why I stated market forces will answer this one, a solution will arrive when neccessary.

    Fusion is not a theory. We know that fusion power works: the Sun runs on it, for instance. We also have man-made fusion reactors that work perfectly well ― ITER, for instance. It's very far from being a practical energy source, but there's good theoretical reason to believe it might eventually become one, with enough engineering. My point was that solar power is not ideal, it just might end up being one of the best power sources for a while beginning in the next few decades.
    Sorry I should have said theoretically it could be cost effective.

    That's not true. New solutions will be widely implemented whenever they're cheaper than existing ones. People will start using battery-powered cars, for instance, when that's cheaper and otherwise uniformly superior to using gas-powered cars. That might occur because gas-powered cars become more expensive for any reason (more expensive oil, carbon taxes, tighter regulations, etc.), or because battery-powered cars become cheaper for any reason (cheaper batteries, cheaper outlet power, more convenient ways to refuel, longer battery life, government subsidies, etc.), or any combination of the two.
    Which is exactly what I meant by market forces so I'll not take issue with this. The whole point about the real cost of oil I brought up is that it is still economical to use therefore others are not at the minute due to their price.

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    Simetrical's Avatar Former Chief Technician
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    Default Re: Free energy debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    Sorry I should have said theoretically it could be cost effective.
    In this it differs from the "free energy" schemes being discussed. Those aren't even known to work. Fusion works, it's just not yet practical as an energy source (and won't be for some time, possibly forever).
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    Rhaegar1's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Free energy debate

    Just wanted to point out ITER isn't working, they hardly started building it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER
    Not to say fussion couldn't work (it allready does as pointed out in other places) allthough I'm highly sceptical we will be able to see commercial fussion reactors this century.

    My opinion about free energy devices is this.

    IMO it's clear that they are impossible according to our current physical laws and theories. That said I also think that it would be a mistake to assume that all our pyisical laws and theories are correct under any circumstances, I think most of our laws are almost perfect approximations under normal circumstances. Which have of course been proven by centuries of measurments and experiments. Just like our classical mechanics work perfectly well to describe the speed and time it will take to drive a car from Amsterdam to The Hague but it turns out those classical mechanics are just approximations which won't work when we are talking about speeds closer to light speed (relativity). For quantum mechanics it works more or less the same (more less then more to be honest) when we look at very small systems.

    So in my opinion there might be ways to 'evade' the conservation of energy law, or the law might not be a law but an approximation that is correct under normal curcomstances but it will take an outragous change in these curcomstances to actually accomplish this. That's the reason why I allways discard the enthousiastics that claim to have build a free energy device in their spare time in their garage because I'm pretty sure it will take more then 3 magnets to accomplish this change in circumstances.
    'I'll be damned ' Marcellus Wallis


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