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    Default What the hell is wrong with Liberal Democrats?

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6391226.ece


    • 77 per cent say that there should be more referendums to give voters a direct say on important issues;
    • 74 per cent back fixed-term parliaments, taking away from the prime minister of the day the right to choose the election date;
    • 73 per cent say there should be more free votes.
    • 82 per cent believe that a system of “recalling” MPs between elections to put themselves forward for re-election if they have broken the rules would improve things.
    • 66 per cent believe that the number of MPs should be reduced to cut the cost to the taxpayer;
    • 56 per cent say MPs should be stopped from having second jobs;
    • 51 per cent back a fully elected House of Lords.
    • 56 per cent support a change from the “first past the post” system to proportional representation



    These are the views and preferences of the British people. These are also all Liberal Democrat policies for over the last decade. The hall mark of the Liberal Party is constitutional, political and parliamentary reform. More referendums, fixed parliaments, free votes, recalling MPs, less MPs, no 2nd jobs, elected Lords and PR. All long term Liberal policies.



    My question is, if so many people support their policies, the policies that separate the Liberal Party from the other two. Why are they even lower in the polls? From 22% to 15%. What the hell is wrong with this party? Why do people simply refuse to vote Liberal? On the NHS, Public services, Education, Foreign policy, environment, the Liberals are just about identical to the other two.


    Other Liberal policies.

    • more choice for patients stuck on waiting lists in the NHS, giving them the option to go private and to be funded by the NHS if they wish;
    • a huge tax slash across the board in order to put more money back into the pockets of people compulsory English lessons for all long-term immigrants
    • better action on the environment
    • the renewal of Britain's Trident missile defence system in 2010
    • devolving more power to local councils
    • a slimming of government across the board
    • end to over centralisation in London.


    I mean they are just Tory policies. But my point is that in other areas except political reform the Liberals are the same. The thing that defines them is their dedication to political reform. It turns out the majority of the British people agree with all their reforms. Reforms they have advocated for ever.

    But still no one wants to vote Liberal.

    Instead other parties steal the Liberals policies, Labour and Tory, and take them as their own. People would rather vote for flip flopping and opportunist Tory and Labour parties than the Liberal party. It happens all the time with the Liberals. Always having their policies stolen by the other two and those policies turn out to be popular. Devolution, minimum wage, privatisation, environment, Hereditary peers etc.

    But why? Why can't the Liberal party translate this into success and support and popularity? Funds? Finances? History? Leader? MPs? Grass roots and fan base? PR? Lack of experience? Flip-flopping? What the hell is the matter!?

    Your thoughts on why the Liberals cannot seem to break through would be much appreciated.




    A view unto what the Liberal Party stands for. A speech by Nick Clegg, the leader, please do read it.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    First, a bit of sycophancy aimed squarely at you, Demos, the host of this event.

    In an article last week, Richard Reeves, your Director, defined progressive politics.

    It is, he said:

    "about the production and distribution of power. To be progressive is to support environments in which individuals have the capabilities and opportunities to be self-governing; to oppose dependency and subjection in all their social and economic forms and to ensure people have the collective power to shape the conditions of their shared, overlapping lives. In short, a society of citizens, not subjects."

    For someone increasingly tutored in the ten second soundbite, I have to say this doesn't exactly trip off the tongue.

    But it's dead right.

    Liberalism, progressive liberalism, has always been and always will be about the dispersal and distribution of power.

    A liberal abhors excessive concentrations of power in politics and economics alike.
    I believe monopoly in the market place is as destructive of creativity and autonomy as is monopoly in politics.

    And underpinning this attitude towards power, there is a particular liberal attitude towards people.
    Like all liberals, I have an optimistic attitude towards people.
    That most people, most of the time, will make the right decisions for themselves, their family and their community.

    A belief in the dispersal of power only makes sense if sustained by this optimism.
    There would be little point in dispersing power from Governments to citizens, families and communities if you didn't think they have the capacity to put that power to better use than Governments themselves.

    This, of course, is the fundamental difference between progressive Liberalism and progressive Socialism, a difference which has endured for the best part of a century and lives on in the modern Liberal Democrat and Labour parties.

    Liberalism believes fairness, fulfilment and freedom can be best secured by giving real power directly to millions of citizens.
    Socialism believes that society can only be improved through relentless state activism, a belief driven by far greater pessimism about the ability of people to improve their own lives.

    A liberal believes in the raucous, unpredictable capacity of people to take decisions about their own lives.
    A Socialist believes in the ordered, controlled capacity of the state to take the right decisions about other peoples' lives.

    A liberal believes a progressive society is distinguished by aspiration, creativity and non conformity.
    A Socialist believes a progressive society is characterised by enlightened top-down Government.

    Meanwhile, the Conservative tradition in British politics has oscillated wildly between a paternalistic view of the state - as sceptical as the Left of the capacity of people to take charge of their own lives - to an aggressive consumerism wedded to an unreformed model of politics at home and a brittle, slightly neurotic, nationalism abroad.
    The modern Conservative Party seems to me to be beached between these two traditions - keen to take a softer, paternalistic attitude towards social issues whilst taking an increasingly sink-or-swim attitude towards those hit by the economic downturn and a doctrinaire hatred of the EU.

    The great strength of British Conservativism has been its aversion to excessive theorising, and respect for simple pragmatism.
    But I'm not sure how even the most ingenious pragmatist will make sense of these new contradictions.

    Optimism in people.

    Dispersing power.

    These then are the key instincts of liberals.

    But surely this optimism makes no sense when the newspapers are filled almost daily with harrowing accounts of people doing untold damage to others?

    Karen Matthews, who had her own daughter kidnapped, drugged, bound and imprisoned to try and make some money.
    The mother and step-father of Baby P, who beat their child to death.
    The father in Sheffield who raped his daughters for twenty years.

    How on earth is it possible to be optimistic about human nature with these crimes in mind?

    And surely, as the economic recession tightens its chilling grip, Big Government is the only answer? Only the State can provide the protection and intervention needed at a time of economic emergency?

    Wasn't it precisely economic liberalism which spawned the regulatory failure and corporate greed which toppled our economy into a binge of unsustainable private debt?

    I flatly reject both allegations.

    Evil may be the right word to describe what some individuals have done to others, especially their own children.
    But our outrage as a people...
    Our fury...
    Our determination to stamp out these crimes wherever we can...
    Shows that as a society - we are moral, we are decent.

    And we have a choice: do we let the worst set the rules?
    The world is not made up of the horrific examples I've listed.
    These cases make the news because they are extra-ordinary.
    Most parents, almost all parents, are loving, caring, and put themselves last when it comes to decisions that affect their children.
    There are minor miracles done by parents, teachers, carers, total strangers, every day in schools, hospitals, homes, playgrounds.
    Acts of kindness that are the overwhelming majority of human experience.

    It is disaster politics to assume otherwise.

    We know that it was the disaster politics response to the killing of James Bulger that led to a massive upswing in the number of children in prison or prison-like secure accommodation.
    And we know it isn't doing any good, it isn't cutting crime, it's just turning fragile children into damaged adults.
    Turning out a generation of career criminals.

    Yes, we need to protect against the worst, but we should not assume it. Crime must not end hope.

    But it's the suggestion that the economic crisis demands a newly interventionist and activist state which I'd like to concentrate on today.

    It's a suggestion that is made with increasing frequency on the Left, especially those in the Labour Party who never liked New Labour in the first place and now want to see a rapid return to an activist, Fabian state.

    But it is liberalism which provides the best guide for what has gone wrong: a monumental failure of regulators and Governments to hold businesses to account, to identify and assess risk, to impose transparency on markets whose complexity made them increasingly immune to scrutiny.

    Liberal economics is not laissez-faire economics.
    Liberal economics believes our prosperity depends on regulation to challenge monopolies, to create a level playing field between big and small companies, to keep trade open and fair, to ensure short termism in business does not usurp our long term duty to the environment, and to give consumers the rights and information they need.

    In other words, liberal economics rests on the idea that we have to get the rules right to allow the dynamism of a liberal economy to serve society's wider needs.
    What it does not believe is that the State should seek to micromanage the economy, or run vast swaths of it directly itself.

    By any standard, the failure of Gordon Brown to anticipate the end of an unsustainable housing boom or to halt the insanely leveraged business models pursued by a raft of British banks was a spectacular failure to understand the basic principles of a liberal economy: the rules were simply wrong, or absent altogether.

    That is why the liberal critique of what went so wrong in recent years has now proved to be so accurate: we understood earlier than others that the City was not being adequately regulated, that an overheated housing market demanded new policy responses, and that the oligopoly which now exists in the energy market is not serving British families.

    What we need now is a resetting of the rules which govern a dynamic, liberal economy - not a lurch back towards the economic policies of the 1970s.

    And what we also need to understand is this: the economic crisis rightly dominates the political debate today, but it also obscures deeper challenges which the country was already facing, and which are now further exacerbated by recession:

    A social crisis.

    An ecological crisis.

    And a political crisis.

    Take the social crisis first.
    Our society is deeply unfair.
    The difference in the way that the recession is hitting those at the bottom compared to those at the top makes it impossible to pretend otherwise.

    In 1997, when New Labour promised a new era for what we now call social mobility...
    When they guaranteed that no one would be left behind because of their upbringing, the circumstances of their birth or the wealth of their parents...
    And that everyone would have a chance to make something of themselves...
    I, like many people, held out hope.

    But the New Labour project has failed.
    Relentless central Government activism has not produced the fairness we were promised. After years of unprecedented Government expenditure and target setting, social mobility is worse now than it was in the 1950s.

    Millions of children still go without, living in cramped and filthy accommodation.
    This Christmas 4.5 million people will only be able to afford to heat one room in their homes.
    And adults with disabilities are now twice as likely to be poor than those without disabilities.

    Opportunity hasn't got better under Labour.
    It's got worse.

    And I believe a liberal society is impossible if children are condemned for life - their education, their health, their economic well being - by the circumstances in which they were born.

    In parts of Britain today there is an almost caste-like distinction between different communities: a child born today in the poorest neighbourhood in Sheffield will die on average fourteen years before a child born in the most affluent neighbourhood a few miles away. Recent research suggests that a bright child from a deprived background will have fallen behind a less bright but more affluent child by the age of six, and the gap will simply widen in subsequent years.

    It doesn't have to be like this.
    Because I believe that there are so many things that we can do differently.

    For a start we can change the way we tax people.
    Our tax system punishes the worst off, who pay a higher proportion of their income in tax than the richest.
    Leaving people on low and modest incomes unable to cope with rising prices or higher fuel bills.
    We should be cutting taxes for ordinary families, paid for by closing the multi billion pound loopholes and exemptions which only benefit large corporations and wealthy individuals.

    I am not advocating a return to the politics of envy.
    As the fact that Gordon Brown's new 45p income tax rate will raise no extra money shows, gesture politics has no place in the taxation debate.

    But I am advocating a simpler, more transparent, and fairer tax system which obliges those at the top to pay their fair share rather than avoid tax, and puts money back in the pockets of those on middle and lower incomes. Over the coming months, we will be setting out new, more detailed proposals to achieve just this.

    We can also change the way we provide childcare.
    My party has new plans to provide free childcare for all toddlers from the age of eighteen months.
    Childcare costs are a punitive burden for so many parents today, inhibiting the freedoms and choices which parents in other countries take for granted.
    And currently there is no help with childcare costs at all until a child is three years old.

    If people want to work, let them.
    We would offer 19 months of parental leave...
    Shared between mothers and fathers...
    So that - if they want to - men can stay at home with their children.
    And - if they want to - women have more opportunities to get back into work.

    We are also developing new policies which would target extra resources at the most deprived children, especially in those crucial early years of education, and introduce significantly lower infant class sizes.
    If we don't target help early on in a child's education, it is virtually impossible to make up for it later in life.

    I don't believe Britain is yet a country fit for children.
    Our plans would revolutionise the care and schooling provided to young children, so giving both parents and children peace of mind and opportunities that have been denied them for far too long.

    It's not rocket science.
    A fairer, better balanced society rests on giving people a break - a chance.
    Creating opportunities, and - crucially - empowering people to take those opportunities.
    Empowering people to achieve their potential, to make their own lives better.

    The second crisis isn't restricted to the UK.
    It's the ecological crisis, and it hangs over all of us.

    Everyone in this room will know about the dangers I'm referring to.
    About dangerous climate change...
    About environmental degradation, deforestation, rising sea levels...
    Threats that are wiping out species across the globe and that are now threatening our own.

    Just last week we saw Europe miss a huge opportunity for meeting green house gas targets, by giving heavily polluting industries exemption from carbon trading schemes.
    Nation states bowed to pressure from big business, and there was no international body with the authority to stop them.

    In exactly the same way we need international regulation to mitigate the worst excesses of our financial institutions, we need international regulation to protect our environment from self-interested elites.
    Global problems require global solutions.

    But only liberals truly believe in international governance.
    In pooling sovereignty at supranational level.
    That is why we are such steadfast supporters of Britain's role in the EU: so many of today's problems - economic, security, environmental - escape the clutches of the nation state.
    We can only successfully govern ourselves if we are prepared to govern together with others.

    A policy of splendid isolation would leave the UK less, rather than more, capable of influencing the world around us.
    Anti Europeans invoke sovereignty to justify their rejection of the EU when their actions would in reality curtail our sovereignty in an increasingly borderless world.
    Liberals have been the driving force behind the growing structures of international law and cooperation.
    That is what we must build on to tackle the ecological crisis.

    And at the other end of the spectrum, liberalism also recognises the role of individuals and small scale innovation in resolving this crisis.
    Although he may not believe it, Gordon Brown cannot save the world single-handedly.

    Take energy: we need an energy revolution that moves us away from a reliance on heavy handed, statist fuel supplies, like nuclear power or dirty coal...
    Towards a radical reduction in the amount of energy we use through much greater efficiency in the home, and a far greater diversity of new energy sources.
    That means changing behaviour at the individual level, encouraging and helping people to alter the way they consume energy, and creating an energy grid capable of taking energy from a multitude of sources, big and small.

    The final crisis we are facing is a crisis in public trust in politics, in the way we are governed.

    The figures speak for themselves:
    Labour was elected on just 22% of the eligible vote.
    In 2001 more people stayed at home than voted for the winning party.
    In 2005 it happened again.

    I have made no secret of my despair at Westminster...
    For the way that the vast majority of voters in Britain are disenfranchised through an unfair electoral system...
    For the way that dissent is silenced and pluralism is stifled.
    Our political system acts as a roadblock to reform.
    And it doesn't create pressure for real change, it just promotes the interests of the political class.

    I believe we need to transform politics entirely.
    Maybe that has something to do with the way I've come at it - from the outside in.
    I didn't rise through the ranks of the Westminster village, and I was lucky enough to spend many years looking at the way politics works in other countries.
    Even now, I spend every minute I can outside the Westminster village - I've held 30 town hall meetings around the country in the last 10 months alone.

    And what I hear all too often is that people are switching off.
    The economic downturn is exacerbating the political crisis.
    People are growing even more fed up with the politicians they don't believe can or will help them.
    So they are giving up.

    And there is a chance that as large swathes of them turn off politics completely...
    Others will turn to extremism.
    That as more people lose their jobs, and end up on the streets, an alienated and frustrated minority will turn to aggression, to hate and to blame.

    I have been appalled by the way Ministers have been playing to these simmering tensions.
    Hardship creates anxiety, scarcity creates suspicion...
    Yet we have seen the Justice Minister denounce human rights...
    The Immigration Minister blame misery on asylum seekers...
    And the Home Secretary scaremongering over Zimbabwean refugees coming here and spreading cholera.

    This isn't leadership.
    This is pandering to fear.
    The only way we will make it through the hard times ahead, the only way we'll build a fairer, more cohesive society, is if we come together.
    Not if we drive people apart.

    Liberalism seeks to bring people together by recognising our own freedoms are dependent on the freedom of others.
    I uphold your freedoms because you uphold mine.
    I believe in you, because you believe in me.

    And liberalism deflates extremism because it seeks to give people a voice.
    A liberal politics spreads power fairly.
    That means radical decentralisation away from Whitehall and Westminster.
    A fair voting system.
    And getting big money out of politics once and for all.

    I have attempted to explain what I think is unique about liberalism: its optimism in people, and its belief that power should be dispersed, given back to people.
    The economic turmoil we face today is a direct consequence of a failure to adhere to simple liberal principles in the way we run our economy.
    And we continue to face the triple challenge of a society which is unfair, ecologically unsustainable and disfigured by distrust in politics.

    These problems all stem from power being in the wrong hands, or in too few hands.
    That's what keeps people poor, it's what prevents us from protecting the planet, and it's what feeds the growing disillusionment towards politics.

    So the solution must be sharing power, rather than hoarding it.
    Giving people a say over their own lives.
    Trusting people to make the right judgements for themselves, their families and their communities.

    At the next General Election the Labour Government will no doubt say that they should be re-elected to get us out of this mess even though they're heavily responsible for it in the first place.

    The Conservatives will no doubt say it's time for a change even though they have no intention of delivering real, lasting change.

    I believe it will be the opportunity for Britain to do things differently.

    To create a fairer society.
    A greener economy.
    A politics of trust.

    Because at a time of fear, I believe people want hope.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Каие; May 30, 2009 at 09:53 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with the Liberal Democrats?

    At least in Germany they are afraid of liberal policy's like flat-tax, and the freedom to starve and die in the gutter.

    IMO they go against to many of common European principals and values.

    EDIT: and whats this "stealing of policy's" about? Party manifests don't have to stay put.
    Last edited by Thorn777; May 30, 2009 at 09:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

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    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with the Liberal Democrats?

    I don't know if I would say the Lib Dems are necessarily doing something wrong (not that I follow British politics closely), I'd more inclined to suggest there are structural factors working against them.

    Off the top of my head:

    Conservative - Labour represent traditional class cleavages. But I'm not really sure if you could really say that the vote for the two major parties is really divided on such class lines today, new labour and all that.

    A first past the post system makes life difficult for a third party as well, makes it harder to translate support into seats.

    Whilst the public might generally agree with particular political reform policies, that isn't the same thing as how important those issues are to the public, and I suspect they are relatively low compared to 'the economy' or things like healthcare.

    Also a similarity of policies with another, larger party isn't going to win you any support. Why would you vote for the smaller party that wants to do want you want when you can vote for the larger party that wants to do what you want? And when those are the issues that really matter (see above)...

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    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with the Liberal Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by wilting View Post
    Off the top of my head:

    Conservative - Labour represent traditional class cleavages. But I'm not really sure if you could really say that the vote for the two major parties is really divided on such class lines today, new labour and all that.

    A first past the post system makes life difficult for a third party as well, makes it harder to translate support into seats.

    Whilst the public might generally agree with particular political reform policies, that isn't the same thing as how important those issues are to the public, and I suspect they are relatively low compared to 'the economy' or things like healthcare.

    Also a similarity of policies with another, larger party isn't going to win you any support. Why would you vote for the smaller party that wants to do want you want when you can vote for the larger party that wants to do what you want? And when those are the issues that really matter (see above)...
    You got it exactly. Although with Labour moving further to the right, their popularity dropping significantly, and the working class almost gone, the Liberals might finally be nearing their time.

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    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with the Liberal Democrats?

    @Thorn

    In the UK those are far right policies of flat rate tax, and no one believes in leaving you to starve in the gutter.

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    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with the Liberal Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Яome kb8 View Post
    @Thorn

    In the UK those are far right policies of flat rate tax, and no one believes in leaving you to starve in the gutter.
    Thats why I said "in Germany". We have only have one so called liberal party: the FDP, who had seats in a couple of coalitions with the CDU(they describe themselves as a match made in heaven), and although they brought forward two excellent ministers of foreign affairs(Genscher and Kinkel), I don't like them at all. Their only clientèle is businessmen, lawyers, journalist and other privateer folks, and their most prominent policy is tax-reliefs on the cost of the "lazy unemployed", handicapped and mentally ill.

    I respected them in the past, but under their new leader(Westerwelle) are allot like the Libertarians in the US. I guess the UK lib-dems are a bit comparable with the Dutch D66. Having more issues other then tax-breaks, and a whole lot more to the left.
    Last edited by Thorn777; May 30, 2009 at 04:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

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    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with the Liberal Democrats?

    Maybe they still blame them for surrendering to the Americans and losing the valuable colonies?

    Or maybe Labour and Liberals draw from the same base which results in them splitting the vote there, and Labour has taken the lead in that base.
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    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with the Liberal Democrats?

    But why? Why can't the Liberal party translate this into success and support and popularity? Funds? Finances? History? Leader? MPs? Grass roots and fan base? PR? Lack of experience? Flip-flopping? What the hell is the matter!?

    That pretty much covers it. History and PR I think are the biggies, they simply aren't seen as having the chance of getting in, perhaps lacking the image of vibrancy and winning spirit. Whenever I see Lib Dems conferences the audience all look in their fifties and sixties, and Sir Menzies-Campbell didn't help that. Clegg has far more hutspa but he looks like Sharpe in charge of a regiment of conscientious objectors.

    You're right, England should love the Lib-Dems.
    'When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything. '

    -Emile Cammaerts' book The Laughing Prophets (1937)

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    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with the Liberal Democrats?

    I personally think it's a mixture of voting loyalties and lack of funds/therefore publicity. Not many people really know what the Liberals stand for, there is a communication breakdown. And too many people are loyal to the big 2. I think a way to combat this is to have televised debates at election time between the leaders and the Prime Minister. I don;t see why we don't already, that will give the main three big exposure and people can choose.

    Otherwise the only break the Liberals will ever get is if an experienced, well known and really popular cabinet minister defects to them and takes the helm.

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    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with Liberal Democrats?

    Rome, come to the light! It has certainly taken time, but now you see the truth! The only decent policies the Tories have are those which they stole of the Liberals/Lib-Dems.

    On a serious note, funding is a major issue. The Liberals have never suckled-up to the wealthy like the Tories, nor ever enjoyed the funding of affiliated unions, like Labour.

    Labour and Liberals don't really draw from the same base.
    As for the defection you mention, perhaps it is worthy of note that one of the two parties that formed the Lib-Dems was a breakaway from Labour who were dissatisfied with the Labour party of the time. There must be plenty of Labour party members and supporters, maybe even MPs and ministers who are dissatisfied with the current Labour party's direction.

    I don't see why PR should be an obstacle to popularity, but publicity about it is. The main two parties constantly slander the Lib-Dem proposals for PR, because they know that those proposals would undermine the two-party hegemony. This is why you have Cameron and various Labour ministers saying PR would abolish constituencies or put power into the hands of party elites, neither of which are neccessarily true (The Lib-Dems have advocated STV for years, which does neither).

    Part of the problem is leadership. Paddy Ashdown was a good leader, and so was Charles Kennedy and the Lib-Dems went from about 20 seats to over 60 under those leaders, but neither Ming nor Clegg has been inspiring, and the Liberals risk stagnation. Still, better stagnation with 60 seats than stagnation with 5-10, which was the position from 1945-83.


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    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with Liberal Democrats?

    I'm not coming over, I'm just completely perplexed by this inability by them to break through. It's been 70 years now since they were destroyed, and successive Tory and Labour governments are now both hated equally. The people are in the mood for radical constitutional reform. If they can't win now, they never will.

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    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with Liberal Democrats?

    UPDATE:

    Well have I eaten my words. The Liberal Party is in 2ND PLACE for the firs time in over 22 years.

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/th...-22-years.html

    No wonder that Labour is considering a deal with the Liberal Democrats that will introduce PR and scupper Tory chances of a second term. "Nick Clegg's party have emerged relatively well from the MPs' expenses scandal," reports The Sunday Telegraph's Patrick Hennessy: "When asked by ICM which main party had been most damaged, just 2 per cent said the Lib Dems, compared with 54 saying Labour had come out worst and 13 per cent claiming the Tories were the most damaged. Some 25 per cent say all three main parties have been equally damaged."
    Last edited by Каие; May 31, 2009 at 04:02 AM.

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    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with Liberal Democrats?


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    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with Liberal Democrats?

    Clegg is a wet sack of rice. Other than that, nothing's wrong.

    Vince Cable is probably my #1 most trusted and respected politician. A truly great man, and one that I am sad will probably never get to the real Treasury.
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    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with Liberal Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jubal_Barca View Post
    Clegg is a wet sack of rice. Other than that, nothing's wrong.

    Vince Cable is probably my #1 most trusted and respected politician. A truly great man, and one that I am sad will probably never get to the real Treasury.
    This is what's wrong with the Lib Dems - I'd perhaps vote for them if it wasn't for Clegg; he's a bit too right-wing for me.

    I respect Vince Cable, too: he has always seemed to me to be that rarest of things; an honest politician.

  16. #16

    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with Liberal Democrats?

    more choice for patients stuck on waiting lists in the NHS
    Stuck on waiting lists? This is a new concept in healthcare to me, is this a good thing?

    Sorry I couldn't resist, only wait lists I know about are for organ donations for rather obvious reasons.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  17. #17

    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with Liberal Democrats?

    Personally, not sure if this is right, i always thought that the Lib dems never winning was infact due to the fact that they never win. Doesn't make any sense? bear with me.

    Due to the FPTP system the Lib dem does not receive the amount of seats in comparison to their votes. Perhaps because their supporters are less concentrated, or less able to concentrate, than other parties. Now normally that would not stop them from winning an election if the other parties lose popularity, like in next years election, but this isn't the case. Due to their long losing streak people don't think that the Lib Dems can win. Thus they believe that a vote for the Lib Dems is wasted and would therefore result in another Labour government because the opposition voters divided between the Lib dems and the Tories.

    Many people i have spoken to would actually vote for Lib Dems but they tell me they will vote for Tories because they believe they are the only other realistic party that can win apart from Labour. Essentially the belief that the UK is a two party system, consisting of Labour and Conservatives, is harming the Lib Dems.
    "If I have done any noble action, that is a sufficient memorial; if I have done nothing noble, all the statues in the world will not preserve my memory."
    - Agesilaus II of Sparta


    "Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy."
    - Isaac Newton

  18. #18
    .......................
    Civitate

    Join Date
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    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with Liberal Democrats?

    That was my bet too. No wonders they want PR so much. They get to be in government for the rest of time.

  19. #19

    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with Liberal Democrats?

    I think part of the problem is Party loyalty and sometimes Lib Dems have a tendency to shoot themselves in the foot when they are on the verge of hitting a new high. Also during election times since the 80s they are constantly reminded by the phrase "go back to your constituencies and prepare for government."

    Of course this was said in 81 and BEFORE Falklands which saved Thatcher and hit the Liberal SDP Alliance hard but people forget that David Steel said that before the war and at the time it was unlikely Thatcher would have survived the next election. But still people see that and are put off by them.

    I for one will be voting Lib Dems in the next Euro election and if things stay the same then the General election next year (or sooner). Sure I don't agree with them 100% but I agree with their stances more than the other 2. But with the General election I am not sure if they will ever get elected here. This place is safe conservative, although my constituancy is being redrawn for the next election anyway actually dumping the conservative stronghold areas (thankfully not because of me being anti conservative but more to due that the MPs only cared about those areas and never came to us ever and is shown by the fact both previous labour and current tory MPs have decided to run there). So you never know, although as of now all we know are running here is a Green Candidate, Conservative and Labour.

  20. #20

    Default Re: What the hell is wrong with Liberal Democrats?

    Two party system and FPTP doesn't just hurt the Lib-Dems, it hurts democracy, it hurts all the small parties, it hurts the right of the electorate to have their votes count, and it actually hurts the Tories an aweful lot at the moment.


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