The British Army

[EireEmerald]

Well lads.

I have always been interested in the British Army, particularily the Irish and Scottish troops in the army.

I know most of the British here know miles more than i about their national army, so I thought i would expose a few curiosities of mine about the British army.

1. How many irish actually fought for the British army?( at different periods), what did they contribute to the army and overall conquest of the empire? I have heard that the irish made up a good part of the army. And how do irish troops contribution to the army compare to those of Scottish troops? in numbers and overall reputation.
I guess a general run through of the irish and Scottish in the British army.

i know many relations of mine fought for the british army over the last few centuries, and against x) So i am very curious.

2.Is this source reliable? http://www.doyle.com.au/irish_soldie...british_ar.htm

Especially this part got me wondering...
"
The British Army had always used Irishmen, in fact it is has been said "the British Empire was won by the Irish, administered by the Scots and Welsh and the profits went to the English". In recent years the last line was amended to read "lost by the English." The Normans used Irish mercenaries in France, Wales and Scotland. The majority of the Tudor Army in Ireland was Irish, as were Tudor troops abroad. Queen Elizabeth I even raised her own Galloglas unit known as The Queen Majesty's Galloglas.
By 1707 the British had six Irish Regiments, by 1713 this had dropped to 2, but later raised to 5 Irish Regiments. However it was estimated that by 1860 some two thirds of the British Army including the English country regiments was constituted by Irishmen or their descendants. A Quarter of a million Irishmen would die the 1st World War when the 3 Irish Divisions were created, being the 10th, 16th and 36th Divisions. In the Second World War, the 38th Irish Brigade was formed. Irish Regiments were formed in the Armies of South Africa, Canada and Australia."


3. How many English and Scottish are in the SAS? Are there more Scottish than Englsih despite there being many more Enlgish in general than Scottish. Are there any irish in the SAS??

[6th Vigil]

"the British Empire was won by the Irish, administered by the Scots and Welsh and the profits went to the English"

Oh Yorkshireman's gonna love this: cue in several hours.....

I'll come back to this later where undoubtably someone with better figures will arrive. What i know is that alot of Irish troops were used at least in the Napoleonic wars.

[Watchman]

It was pretty normal everywhere for lads from poor-ass backwaters to try and get ahead in life (or just get the proverbial "cot and three hots") by signing up in someone's army. Finland played a similar role for Sweden for centuries (also influenced by the fact the poor province featured few noble estates, whose tenants were exempt from draft), and for example in the first half of 1600s Scottish mercenaries had a major presence in Swedish armies.

And the "Celtic Fringe" of the British Isles around those times certainly fit the criteria for "piss-poor backwater"...

[Salem1]

Finland played a similar role for Sweden for centuries (also influenced by the fact the poor province featured few noble estates, whose tenants were exempt from draft), and for example in the first half of 1600s Scottish mercenaries had a major presence in Swedish armies.

Not to hijack the thread, I just wanted to agree with this and say that it wasn't really an active policy to recruit proportionally-to-population more Finns than Swedes. It was indirect, like you gave a hint of in your post. That is, up until the 1670s or so when Charles XI reformed the earlier recruitment system. This meant that Finland provided around 1.1-1.2 of the Swedish military forces while Sweden provided around 1.9-1.8 while earlier, 1/3 was mercenaries, 1/3 was Swedish and 1/3 was Finnish. There were also Balts and Germans in the military, but far less than Swedes and Finns.

But then again Finland was a poor backwater back then, even poorer than the rest of Sweden which was also poor. And that wasn't really a result of an active effort to keep it that way, Scandinavia in general was just a piss poor backwater back then. So, you either live in poverty at your farm or you join the Swedish army and fight for your country's status. It wasn't just a random occurance that everyone from the peasantry to the clergy to the nobility in Sweden supported Gustav II Adolf when he set out. This was and remains a rare occurance, for a country to be so united about commercial and territorial expansion as Sweden was back then. Which I guess, also explains some things about Ireland as well. Maybe serving in the military wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. Sure you had to be in the military, but at least you got clothing, food and a salary plus a chance to improve your country's status (and anything I might've missed).

I would imagine that such is enough to motivate people from poor backwaters to join the army. Afterall there has never been any major revolts in Finland. Revolts yes, but they happened everywhere and were about the usual things, nothing too major really. I guess that's the most obvious difference between Finland and Ireland if doing a comparison for their roles for Sweden and Britain, Ireland whom if I remember correctly tried to oppose Britain at most costs.

Ah well, I won't hijack your thread. I just wanted to further the comparison between Finland and Ireland, who share quite similar histories if you look at it from a simple perspective

[arkeologen]

Not to hijack the thread, I just wanted to agree with this and say that it wasn't really an active policy to recruit proportionally-to-population more Finns than Swedes. It was indirect, like you gave a hint of in your post. That is, up until the 1670s or so when Charles XI reformed the earlier recruitment system. This meant that Finland provided around 1.1-1.2 of the Swedish military forces while Sweden provided around 1.9-1.8 while earlier, 1/3 was mercenaries, 1/3 was Swedish and 1/3 was Finnish. There were also Balts and Germans in the military, but far less than Swedes and Finns.

But then again Finland was a poor backwater back then, even poorer than the rest of Sweden which was also poor. And that wasn't really a result of an active effort to keep it that way, Scandinavia in general was just a piss poor backwater back then. So, you either live in poverty at your farm or you join the Swedish army and fight for your country's status. It wasn't just a random occurance that everyone from the peasantry to the clergy to the nobility in Sweden supported Gustav II Adolf when he set out. This was and remains a rare occurance, for a country to be so united about commercial and territorial expansion as Sweden was back then. Which I guess, also explains some things about Ireland as well. Maybe serving in the military wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. Sure you had to be in the military, but at least you got clothing, food and a salary plus a chance to improve your country's status (and anything I might've missed).

I would imagine that such is enough to motivate people from poor backwaters to join the army. Afterall there has never been any major revolts in Finland. Revolts yes, but they happened everywhere and were about the usual things, nothing too major really. I guess that's the most obvious difference between Finland and Ireland if doing a comparison for their roles for Sweden and Britain, Ireland whom if I remember correctly tried to oppose Britain at most costs.

Ah well, I won't hijack your thread. I just wanted to further the comparison between Finland and Ireland, who share quite similar histories if you look at it from a simple perspective

Well as I have said earlier, the coasts of Finland where a great part of the people lived were more developed than the northern part of Sweden, beginning at Dalarna.

[EireEmerald]

Oh Yorkshireman's gonna love this: cue in several hours.....

I'll come back to this later where undoubtably someone with better figures will arrive. What i know is that alot of Irish troops were used at least in the Napoleonic wars.

Well i respect Yorkshireman's opinion as I do yours so I am glad to hear from you all.

[-C1a5s1c-]

3. How many English and Scottish are in the SAS? Are there more Scottish than Englsih despite there being many more Enlgish in general than Scottish. Are there any irish in the SAS??

Well if I told you that I would have to kill you

I myself serve with the British army, I have only just returned from my first tour of Afghanistan and will soon be going for my first screw (if I ever get the chance). To be honest as part of the Mercian regiment (midlands regiment) I could not tell you loads about the Scots or Irish, apart from that the scots are some mean sons of mothers.

We don’t really work with Irish, as such. We work with the Northern Irish a lot! But all I know about them is that they wear a wired beret called a corbean? And they have a ranger and parachute company. Correct me if im wrong.

Each regiment is steeped in its own history, mine (staffs) was one of the proudest and longest running histories within the British army. And first actual British parachute regiment, so take that paras! Lol. But each regiment plays there part and have their own amazing pasts. Although theres a lot of banter in the army, each soldier knows deep down that no matter what cap badge your under your still apart of a tight bond, which is something extraordinary.

[EireEmerald]

Well if I told you that I would have to kill you

I myself serve with the British army, I have only just returned from my first tour of Afghanistan and will soon be going for my first screw (if I ever get the chance). To be honest as part of the Mercian regiment (midlands regiment) I could not tell you loads about the Scots or Irish, apart from that the scots are some mean sons of mothers.

We don’t really work with Irish, as such. We work with the Northern Irish a lot! But all I know about them is that they wear a wired beret called a corbean? And they have a ranger and parachute company. Correct me if im wrong.

Each regiment is steeped in its own history, mine (staffs) was one of the proudest and longest running histories within the British army. And first actual British parachute regiment, so take that paras! Lol. But each regiment plays there part and have their own amazing pasts. Although theres a lot of banter in the army, each soldier knows deep down that no matter what cap badge your under your still apart of a tight bond, which is something extraordinary.

I hope you don't mind me asking but what was it like over there?

[-C1a5s1c-]

I hope you don't mind me asking but what was it like over there?

Well it wasnt all fun and games, as part of a TA battalion we mostly stuck to guard duty and small force protection patrols around bastion . However when we did get the chance to go out with the regs, we had some good times and some bad ones, and every moment will stick with me for a long time to come, that I assure you.

I have sat through many IEDs and just enough firefights to last a life time, but although it was one of the most terrifying times of my life it was also easily the best, and im looking forward to getting back out there asap!

Im also find myself much more switched on now than ever before, and incredibly fitter! and with quite abit in my back pocket, so its not all that bad

Oh and one thing the movies dont catch, is just how hot it is out there! I was sweating every second of every day, my word it was hot! We had one lad sent home due to black outs because of the heat it was that intense. Plus it doesnt help when your patroling around with upto 100 pound on your back (damn osprey), and it doesnt help when you go out with the regs as they seem to overload you with extra kit so they can carry eff all lol

[EireEmerald]

Well it wasnt all fun and games, as part of a TA battalion we mostly stuck to guard duty and small force protection patrols around bastion . However when we did get the chance to go out with the regs, we had some good times and some bad ones, and every moment will stick with me for a long time to come, that I assure you.

I have sat through many IEDs and just enough firefights to last a life time, but although it was one of the most terrifying times of my life it was also easily the best, and im looking forward to getting back out there asap!

Im also find myself much more switched on now than ever before, and incredibly fitter! and with quite abit in my back pocket, so its not all that bad

Oh and one thing the movies dont catch, is just how hot it is out there! I was sweating every second of every day, my word it was hot! We had one lad sent home due to black outs because of the heat it was that intense. Plus it doesnt help when your patroling around with upto 100 pound on your back (damn osprey), and it doesnt help when you go out with the regs as they seem to overload you with extra kit so they can carry eff all lol

wow... Sorry, i find this stuff fascinating, you know, what its actually like to be in a comat zone. Did you have any close encouters?

If you are going again i wish you all the luck

[-C1a5s1c-]

wow... Sorry, i find this stuff fascinating, you know, what its actually like to be in a comat zone. Did you have any close encouters?

If you are going again i wish you all the luck

Thanks mate, and glad to see your interested!

Personally I dont feel asif soldiers are respected enough. I mean people dont realise just how much we have to go through and just how much we give up. (not trying to make myself sound like a hero, but its just what I have came to feel after serving) I mean the other day two lads had died in Afghan and they recieved a meager mentioning on the news, where as katy and peter seamed to dominate it!

Many people tend to over look the fact that soldiers dont just spend 6 months on tour, but also their pre ops training (mine lasted 3 months) that 9 months in total. And americans can serve up to 2 years straight! I personally would love to be in afghan for 2 years, however, when you have loved ones back at home, the stress really hits home! and it doesnt help when you get your 2 week rnr, It was after that point that my moral droped signicantly.

But you can understand why I feel so grateful towards people when they show interest, it makes me feel proud to serve

[Mr. Pink]

I think the majority of the SAS are Scottish.

I also remember watching a programme 'SAS: Are you tough enough' and the ex SAS guy was talking about the majority being Scottish.

[Paxman]

I think the majority of the SAS are Scottish.

That's a total myth, members of the SAS are kept totally secret so noone on this forum is going to be able to tell you what nationality makes up the majority for certain. I do however know that many of the SAS/SBS members come from the Paras and Royal Marines and theres no more Scottish in those regiments than Welsh/Irish so theres no reason to believe that Scottish make up the majority. Apart from COD4 of course.

[Yorkshireman]

That's a total myth, members of the SAS are kept totally secret so noone on this forum is going to be able to tell you what nationality makes up the majority for certain. I do however know that many of the SAS/SBS members come from the Paras and Royal Marines and theres no more Scottish in those regiments than Welsh/Irish so theres no reason to believe that Scottish make up the majority.

Very true, the SAS have always drawn heavily from the Para's and the SBS is a Royal Marine unit. I was based in Scotland with the Royal Marines (Arbroath) and most of the men were English which has always been the case by virtue of our larger population.

There is a lot of myths surrounding Irish or Scots soldiers, but its just nationalism/regional pride really. You can't say the the Black Watch for example has ever fought any harder than a regiment from Devon or Wales, most of the old units of the British army have long histories and you'll find most of them present at the major battles or campaigns over the years.

I've seen plenty of people talk on here before about the Welsh soldiers defence of Rorke's Drift, a myth perpertrated by the excellent film 'Zulu'. In reality it was an English regiment, the 24th Warwickshires, who defended it, the majority of the soldiers there were English, as were the majority of VC winners. There were infact more Irishmen present than Welsh. But it fits nicely into this ideal that the Welsh/Irish/Scots do the fighting whilst English officers sip tea.

In more modern times there really is no such thing as a Scottish soldier or English soldier, theres only British soldiers. They are all equiped and trained the same, there is no bar on joining any regiment, ie a Londoner can join the Argyll's if he so chooses and there is no evidence that somebody born a hundred miles from somebody else on these islands is any better at soldiering. We see the same in threads with regards to the Ghurka's, doing Britains 'dirty work'etc. In reality a light inf regiment like any other in the British army just with a more romantic and exotic background.

Its all really born from the regimental system of recruiting regionally, a good system because it fosters pride in your unit and a healthy rivalry between soldiers.

PS At this present time there is only one full single county regiment left in the British army, The Yorkshire regiment, with 5 battalions. Its as large on its own as any of the other amalgamated units. That must mean then, that its actually Yorkshireman that do all Britains fighting.

[67th Tigers]

PS At this present time there is only one full single county regiment left in the British army, The Yorkshire regiment, with 5 battalions. Its as large on its own as any of the other amalgamated units. That must mean then, that its actually Yorkshireman that do all Britains fighting.

5?

[Yorkshireman]

5?

Its 4 actually! I made a mistake, I got a bit carried away. It makes my heart bleed to see all these famous regiments reduced to single battalions, not just in Yorkshire but all over the UK.

1st Battalion, The Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own) (ex 1st Battalion, Prince of Wales's Own Regiment of Yorkshire)
2nd Battalion, The Yorkshire Regiment (Green Howards) (ex 1st Battalion, Green Howards)
3rd Battalion, The Yorkshire Regiment (Duke of Wellington's) (ex 1st Battalion, The Duke of Wellington's Regiment (West Riding))
4th Battalion, The Yorkshire Regiment (ex Prince of Wales's Own company of the East and West Riding Regiment, Green Howards company from the Tyne-Tees Regiment and two companies of the Duke of Wellington's Regiment from the East and West Riding Regiment), all formerly titled and known as the Yorkshire Volunteers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkshi...ment#Formation

[Davebob]

I think the majority of the SAS are Scottish.

I also remember watching a programme 'SAS: Are you tough enough' and the ex SAS guy was talking about the majority being Scottish.

Actually, I think I read somewhere that the Majority are English, but their are a disproportioniate amount of Scots in the SAS. As for the SBS, who knows.

[antaeus]

the british army used all its recruitment opportunities.. this means there were also indians, south africans, australians, new zealanders, canadians, men from the 13 colonies... etc etc.

generally the poor tend to join the army as a way of escaping their poverty and seeing the world. this is true now as it was then.

[Watchman]

...except of course when it's plain mandatory (to everyone or everyone sans groups X, Y and Z, makes no real difference really) of course. Still, it's a career if you want to make it one, and used to be most European states at least tended to fill their overseas colonial forces with volunteers AFAIK.

[antaeus]

...except of course when it's plain mandatory (to everyone or everyone sans groups X, Y and Z, makes no real difference really) of course. Still, it's a career if you want to make it one, and used to be most European states at least tended to fill their overseas colonial forces with volunteers AFAIK.

yep.

colonial forces tended to join the army in community groups... as volunteers.. with areas like scotland and ireland, there was a tendency for former indepent-ish groups such as clans to form the nucleus for new companies/regiments etc.. which also explains the fearsome reputation of some regiments... as they came with traditions of fighting spirit..

in the same way other colonials such as australians and south africans came with traditions of independence and pioneer ruggedness

both excellent propaganda tools to instil fear into enemy forces..