Making alliances

[Coxy]

Hi guys

Tried searching for the answer for this - but just came up with sub mods etc.

I had an alliance with the dwarves, but when they declared war on the silvan elves, I stayed loyal to the elves. The elves are dead now, and I want to ally with the dwarves again, but there is no option to do this when I send a diplomat.

Can I ever ally with them again?

Thanks

[Skeleton Of The West]

Are you sure the Elves are dead now? If they are dead you should not have problem make an alliance with the Dwarves, as long as they agree of course.

[Coxy]

Yep a message came up saying the faction was dead etc. Then all their lands turned into rebel lands. There is still no option when I send my diplomat, so maybe I need to give them loads of money to soften them up??

There's also no option to ally with Dale which I'm confused about - as I've never interacted with them before (they are allied to the dwarves...)

[Skeleton Of The West]

If the dwarves hate you, you need to make your relations better with them. Then you can propose an alliance. Maybe give them some money over a few turns.

[Withwnar]

Even if they hate you I would think that an Alliance option should still be available. Are they at war with another of your allies?

[Coxy]

Hi - thanks for the responses. Nope they are only at war with the OFTMM and Rhun and they allied with Dale (I have no relation with Dale). Rhun does have a vassal - Rohan - and Rohan is my ally - could that be the link?!

[Withwnar]

Wow, I actually had to get out paper and a pencil to get my head around that one. I'm not a full bottle on Vassals but it would make sense.

[Skeleton Of The West]

Yeah it is quite complicated, but I do not think there is a connection here. You are allied to Rhun's vassal, not Rhun itself. I dont know much about diplomacy with vassals, but I dont think its what causes you not being able to ally the Dwarves.

[Withwnar]

Yeah, you would think in that case Rhun would appear as some kind of ally to you in the Diplomacy scroll. Still, strange that "Alliance" doesn't appear as an option, and it's the only grey area that I can see.

EDIT: maybe break the alliance with Rohan? Not for real: save first, try it and see what happens, then reload the save.

[Withwnar]

@Coxy - if you find out the answer can you let us know?

[papio]

An easy way to test if Skeleton Of The West is right would be to 'add_money' then give a bunch to the dwarves and see if the option becomes available.

[Coxy]

Hi guys

Well I did 2 tests - firstly I gave the dwarves 10,000 in money, and still no option came to ally with them. (I can try giving them loads more tonight when I get home with the add_money thing - good point Papio.)

Then I lost my alliance with Rohan, but still no change.

So... still confused as to why this is happening, but will try the add money and give them a middle earth fortune when I get in tonight. Will let you know...

[Withwnar]

Thanks for the update Coxy. At least we know that it wasn't the Vassal issue.

Strange indeed. Even if your relations were appalling I would have thought that Alliance would still be an option - just very very unlikely that they would accept. That's just an assumption though.

Stupid question but just checking: you're not at war with the Dwarves or Dale right?

[Coxy]

Nope.

I'm (high elves) allied to Gondor, Eriador and Rohan. I'm at war with OFTMM and Isengard.

Dwarves are allied to Dale. Dwarves are at war with OFTMM and Rhun.

I was going to attack the dwarves because they were attacking and defeating the silvan elves who were my ally. (I was allied to the dwarves and silvan elves until the dwarves as the aggressor attacked the silvans, so I stuck with the silvans, hence breaking my alliance with the dwarves.) So I had 2 armies on their land. However, they actually destroyed the silvan elves really quickly, so I pulled my troops back from their land, and hence never went to war with them.

[Withwnar]

I wonder if it's a timing thing. Maybe you can't ally with a faction for so many turns after breaking an alliance with them. Or any of their allies (Dale).

[Skeleton Of The West]

Coxy, what is your relations with Dwarves? I still stick with my opinion- you just not have enough high relations with them. Now when we know its not vassal issue because you broke alliance with Rohan, I guess its the only thing left.

[Coxy]

Skeleton - will confirm this tonight mate. Once I know what my current relation is, I will give them crap loads of money to see if it makes any difference.

Thanks!

[Coxy]

Hi guys - well I gave the dwarves 30,000 in gold to get my relation with them to very good (it was at amaiable) and still no option came to ally with them. I wonder if withwnar is right and you have to wait a long time till you can ally again with someone - if at all?

I might report it in the bugs section just in case - I also have 2 other issues I don't understand:

At Mithlond I can recruit 8 elven archers at one time - whereas at every other settlement I have I can only get 2 or 3 at maximum - why the sudden sharp increase?

At Hornburg - I can't recruit elven lancers even though i have culture at 50% (needs 40% to get them) but I can recruit other units their fine as expected.

[Withwnar]

How long has it been since the alliance was broken?

Mithlond: 8! I thought that 2 or 3 were the maximum, depending on the level of recruitment building. That does seem strange.

Hornburg: you defintiely have the right building? If it's the wrong culture type then it won't work. From memory when I took over Hornburg they had an "Armoury" building which does not work for Silvans - I had to destroy it and build a "Barracks?" instead. The clue for me was the Armoury description which made no mention of what could be recruited with it (which I took as "nothing").

[Coxy]

Probably about 15 turns since it was broken, maybe 20.

Yeah exactly! Mithlond isn't near my battle line either - so it's a shame

Yep definitely the right building - built stables etc and yeah it's definitely my culture. I will try destroying the stables and doing it again, see if that does make a difference!