Vegan diets

[Richard]

Does anyone know whether the common vegan claim that meat and dairy are bad for you holds any water? Obviously in excess amounts, but in moderation? Also, take a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_meat#Health_effects

Thoughts? I know it's only wiki, but is it actually on the nail there?

[Copperknickers II]

It doesn't. How many vegan olympic athletes, centagenarians, are there?

[Richard]

That's what I've always thought; no athlete would ever eat no meat. Having said that, that's for performance, not necessarily health.

[GrnEyedDvl]

That's what I've always thought; no athlete would ever eat no meat. Having said that, that's for performance, not necessarily health.

Thats hardly true. John Elways favorite place to eat is a steak house next to the stadium. The place is full of pictures of him. The Governator (Arnold) wrote in his book about someone trying to convice him to become a vegetarian, but he didnt. Many athletes eat meat, they just dont feel the need to advertise their own personal life to make a point like vegetarians do.

I would bet that if you could get an honest poll of pro athletes in the US, that most eat meat.

[Armatus]

Thats hardly true. John Elways favorite place to eat is a steak house next to the stadium. The place is full of pictures of him. The Governator (Arnold) wrote in his book about someone trying to convice him to become a vegetarian, but he didnt. Many athletes eat meat, they just dont feel the need to advertise their own personal life to make a point like vegetarians do.

I would bet that if you could get an honest poll of pro athletes in the US, that most eat meat.

I think you may have mis read him, I think he meant it the other way around. There's no denying more athletes eat meat, doesn't mean it's the only way to becoming an athlete though.

[Richard]

Thats hardly true. John Elways favorite place to eat is a steak house next to the stadium. The place is full of pictures of him. The Governator (Arnold) wrote in his book about someone trying to convice him to become a vegetarian, but he didnt. Many athletes eat meat, they just dont feel the need to advertise their own personal life to make a point like vegetarians do.

I would bet that if you could get an honest poll of pro athletes in the US, that most eat meat.

That's exactly what I said. You didn't read my post.

Meat is healthy and delicious.
Are other reasons needed?

Justification for the former reason is. I've been reading a fair bit lately (excluding the moral "save the gay whales people") that indicates westerners eat far too much meat and dairy than is good for them. A lot of stuff pointing to higher incidence of heart disease too (which makes sense when you think about it).

I was hoping someone on here would actually know something about the topic. We don't happen to have a nutritionist in the house, do we?

For the record I'm well-aware that humans are 'intended' to eat meat (though certainly not dairy), but that doesn't mean it's automatically the best thing for us if we can gain the nutrients in question from sources with less side-effects.

[Phier]

TJustification for the former reason is. I've been reading a fair bit lately (excluding the moral "save the gay whales people") that indicates westerners eat far too much meat and dairy than is good for them. A lot of stuff pointing to higher incidence of heart disease too (which makes sense when you think about it).

I was hoping someone on here would actually know something about the topic. We don't happen to have a nutritionist in the house, do we?

For the record I'm well-aware that humans are 'intended' to eat meat (though certainly not dairy), but that doesn't mean it's automatically the best thing for us if we can gain the nutrients in question from sources with less side-effects.

About those nutritionists.....

There are a couple of problems with nutritionists.

One is that for some reason, most of them are not very bright. I'm not sure if there is a low salary or what but the ones I've met, and I've met a bunch, are pretty much food social workers, who just read something and parrot it back without any real incite or knowledge. Their job tends to be telling people who eat mounds of processed foods a day that its a bad thing to do in hospitals. Nothing wrong with that but if you want to know what the optimum protein intake is for a 200 lb, 20 year old, endomorphic male of Celtic decent, with an active life style, you will get a blank stare or a canned answer.

Secondly the science of nutrition has been very neglected until recently. Things like the USDA food pyramid used for decades, was not based in any way on science. This is going to sound odd but we really don't KNOW what the best long term healthy diet is. Added we don't know much about human genetic variations which may change what that healthy diet would be population to population.

What we do know is that until agriculture was discovered/invented 10k years ago or so, we ate a LOT more protein. We know this from something called coprolites, which is fossilized . In the last ice age we were not eating grains and such, at least in Europe, but animal protein in very high %. The other factor, and often overlooked is it wasn't just the protein but the fat as well.

Many human chronic diseases didn't become a problem until after the invention of agriculture. Agriculture may have allowed enough food to be produced and stored to spur on civilization, but there was a human cost to this as well with malnutrition, rampant tooth decay, decreased stature and strength, and worse over all health.

Lets put it this way, people SAY we eat to much protein now. In the 1930's the average male height in the US was 5'7", now its 6'. Up until a few years ago the US was the tallest nation on earth DESPITE being made up of very diverse peoples, its not like we all came from one freakishly tall stock. Now Sweden is the tallest nation on average. Its not due to eating more veggies and grains, but MEAT. Something thats been a huge part of the American diet since we industrialized our food production in the early part of the 1900's.

[Armatus]

It doesn't. How many vegan olympic athletes, centagenarians, are there?

http://www.veganathlete.com/vegan_ve...n_athletes.php

http://www.veganathlete.com/

[Edratman]

Look at your teeth, you are not a herbivore. Your teeth show that your ancestors were omniverous.

Besides, how much intelligence is required to sneak up on a blade of grass?

[Thanatos]

http://www.veganathlete.com/vegan_ve...n_athletes.php

http://www.veganathlete.com/

Not a very long list, I'm afraid.

[Armatus]

Not a very long list, I'm afraid.

I was responding to the idea that there were no vegan athletes. And as if this one list contained all the vegan or vegetarian athletes in the entire world. Even so I'd say that's pretty good considering that vegetarians or specifically vegans are a minority in our country where there still exists such a social stigma about not eating meat.

By the way here's a centagenarian who was also a boxer in his day.

Joe Rolino
http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxin...ill-fit-fiery/

Here's another old timer although now deceased, yet a strong man in his day:

http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/blog...Hilligenn.html
http://www.cbass.com/Hilligenn.htm

[Dayman]

Does anyone know whether the common vegan claim that meat and dairy are bad for you holds any water? Obviously in excess amounts, but in moderation? Also, take a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_meat#Health_effects

Thoughts? I know it's only wiki, but is it actually on the nail there?

It's possible to get the nutrients through supplements and a large variety of vegetables.

But meat and dairy are not bad for you, especially not in moderation. Nutrition is one of the biggest bastions of pseudoscience in the world, I'm very skeptical of any health claims made through nutrition.

[Thanatos]

It's possible to get the nutrients through supplements and a large variety of vegetables.

But meat and dairy are not bad for you, especially not in moderation. Nutrition is one of the biggest bastions of pseudoscience in the world, I'm very skeptical of any health claims made through nutrition.

And yet the FDA gets a clean pass? Because they could never be manipulated to serve corporate interests too, no?

[Armatus]

It's possible to get the nutrients through supplements and a large variety of vegetables.

But meat and dairy are not bad for you, especially not in moderation. Nutrition is one of the biggest bastions of pseudoscience in the world, I'm very skeptical of any health claims made through nutrition.

And yet the FDA gets a clean pass? Because they could never be manipulated to serve corporate interests too, no?

Ironically I agree with both of these statements, because they are both true in the proper context.

[eisenkopf]

Personally, I love meat. I know quite a few vegetarians, and one vegan. Their motivation is not health, but they consider it unethical to eat meat produced in the present agroindustry. Not one of them is proselytizing his or her view, however. In my experience, it's quite the other way round: All vegetarians I know are dead-tired of having to explain this personal choice to zealous meat-eaters.

[Dayman]

Ironically I agree with both of these statements, because they are both true in the proper context.

He's right, because the FDA kowtows to the supplementation (aka BS) industry. I wouldn't trust them either. I do find that modern medicine tends to know a thing or two (no ancient Chinese secretes either )

Although, of course, my problem doesn't lie insofar as government structures but with the people who run it, which like most of us are scientifically illiterate.

[Thanatos]

He's right, because the FDA kowtows to the supplementation (aka BS) industry. I wouldn't trust them either.

That's your own opinion, albeit true to a good extent. The majority of the supplements do little to nothing or all, or they can actually put toxins into your body. Ma Huang and Ephedrine come to mind, as examples.

I do find that modern medicine tends to know a thing or two (no ancient Chinese secretes either )

i c wat u did thar. whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?

Although, of course, my problem doesn't lie insofar as government structures but with the people who run it, which like most of us are scientifically illiterate.

Well, I personally just have trouble believing reports using data you'll never read, written by people you'll never meet, who often have financial incentives to mislead you.

[Sebdeas]

Meat is healthy and delicious.
Are other reasons needed?

[Phier]

I'm on the Atkins diet so I'm getting a kick out of this thread.

Personally I think fish is the perfect food, and chicken a close second.

[Thanatos]

Yeah, ok, let's just leave it at that then.

Back on topic, I'm sticking to eating meat. Much easier for me to get the proteins I need.