Ok, do you think the class system is prevalent today in your country wherever you may be
And following on from the question if you said 'yes' to the first what social class do you ascribe yourself too?
Campidoctor
Class system
Ok, do you think the class system is prevalent today in your country wherever you may be
And following on from the question if you said 'yes' to the first what social class do you ascribe yourself too?
GSTK: Richard Trevelyan [47] - Lord of Lyonesse
Re: Class system
Yes. Class is inevitable, but class conflict is not. I'm working class.
Campidoctor
Re: Class system
surely if class is inevitable then class conflict is too?
GSTK: Richard Trevelyan [47] - Lord of Lyonesse
Re: Class system
Not at all. The different classes need each other, a kind of status quo an equilibrium. Why fight? Just because I am working class I don't have to hate and fight against the rich capitalists. They give me jobs which I need to live. They pay taxes which are handed back to my family, and millions of others, in child benefit. At the same time, that capitalist needs the workers to work for him and run his business.
The only 'conflict' comes over matters of justice, which are completely unrelated to class.
Human Directional
Re: Class system
Of course it exists
especially here in the US
I don't really know where I fit in though,
middle-class?
"Mad, is he?"
Re: Class system
A conflict requires two sides, how is the working class fighting back?Originally Posted by Emperor Richard
Campidoctor
Re: Class system
Yes, but surely one could make the observation in saying that with the class system in place 'matters of justice' can be blurred in preference to a particular class. And surely class conflict(s) occur when those percieved as lesser in social hierachy are fed up, riot and maybe cause a revolution just look at France.
It does vary from country to country but i suppose it is up to the individual what you percieve to be class and its distinction It seems that class in the UK from my experiance is almost heritigery in nature, as it is also about your family (seemingly how close they were to the Queen =]) but really i think class is percieved differently from country to country, but wether it exists and it shouldnt are two different things which i guess was the point of this thread =]
Last edited by Lord de Lyonesse; May 26, 2009 at 03:14 AM.
GSTK: Richard Trevelyan [47] - Lord of Lyonesse
Re: Class system
But in England where we had the exact same situation, yet no revolution. In fact in England instead of a savage revolution against the upper classes to get power, there was cooperation between the working, middle and upper classes to pass the Great Reform Acts.
Campidoctor
Re: Class system
True, but the fact is, is that Britain during the 17th-19th centuries when all this was occuring was very aware of the troubles occuring in Europe. And there was great incentive to work hard and get paid, people didnt want revolution they just wanted their thoughts to be displayed in parliament which they got. I guess it just shows how evolutionary not revolutionary the Westminister system is..
GSTK: Richard Trevelyan [47] - Lord of Lyonesse
Re: Class system
That's my point. Britain doesn't have a real tradition of class conflict. British socialism was inspired by the Bible, not Marx. So Britain, at least initially, didn't have the same idea of class conflict as mainland Europe. Then Communism arrived here and class conflict began. There was once a strong and proud Tory working class, but the Labour party 100 years to get elected convinced workers to vote working class, to vote for their identity and not for issues. Cue, class warfare.
Praefectus
Re: Class system
Of course it exists.
But luckily it is very weak in New Zealand, one of the most egalitarian countries in the world.
The downside to egalitarianism being that the wages for Accountants, Doctors and Lawyers is about 3 times as much in Australia...
EDIT: Upper-middle class
Mr. Conservative
Triggering
Re: Class system
Class is only really important if there is no fluidity to the system.
In the US, the upper class is full of many who's parents were lower class, likewise many who's parents were upper class find themselves as lower and middle class.
Its not a caste system.
Being focused on class is being focused on excuses.
The CEO of the global company my mother inlaw works for started as a delivery driver for the company in Mexico. The ability to do this sort of thing is why defining yourself as a 'class' is stupid.
"When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."
My shameful truth.
Praeses
Re: Class system
Their has always been that ability, look far back enough in any noble families tree and you will find a jumped up peasent with a sword and some mates. It used to be done with military bravery, or political arse kissing, or threw the church, now it is done with education ( a right which you as a liberterian want to turn into a privelege) or if really lucky one great idea. Does this mean that 'class' does not excist? Ofc it does, look at how 'old money' looks down on 'new money' but it is a social divide now (one of upbrining and going to the 'right' schools), rather than a wall to be scaled, guarded jealously by the entire system of goverment and law (Trial by peers btw used to mean exactly that, only nobles got a jury, and it had to be made up of people of equal social rank).
Do I think that the current system is better? Yes ofc, but conflict of interest still excists.
Praeses
Re: Class system
don't forget that we had the Civil War to look back on, and the Inter-Regnum nightmare of Cromwells republic, that had to be a factor in lessening the likelyhood of revolution, also we had the wars with France (nothing like nationalism to unite a nation, especailly if you win), and colonies to ship malcontents off to, not to mention empire building, (if your life was bad at home, sign up, do a foreign war, loot what you could [unofficialy of course] or if in the navy get your share of prize money)
Primicerius
Re: Class system
Yesterday, for an example of class prevalence, I went to a graduation party of a friend. It so happens that this friend's family is one of the wealthiest in my class. It is really awkward to go to a very nice neighborhood, a very nice house by the lake, with a very nice yard, with a pool, with shrimp, with a fondue fountain, five cars that only belong to his family, very nice cars belonging to guests, and then coming back home to my... house, I guess you could call it. It was an overall snooty affair.
As for myself, middle middle class.
Praepositus
Re: Class system
used to be low lower class (impoverished) but now id say im middle class/higher middle class based on income not the stuff i own
You look great today.
Primicerius
Re: Class system
Not really in Australia, we as a nation descended from the poor, the criminal and the Irish.
Praepositus
Re: Class system
thats 3 negatives!
You look great today.
Primicerius
Re: Class system
And everybody knows that 3 wrongs makes a Right. Tbh, all of those things were in the same people. It should have been Poor, criminal and Irish.
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