View Poll Results: What do you think of the proposal below to limit population growth and economics in "non-liveable" areas for each races?

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  • I like this idea, and think it should be implemented in TATW or a submod

    99 54.10%
  • I like the general idea, but I think there are better alternatives to it [Explain in a post]

    15 8.20%
  • I'm against this particular proposal

    13 7.10%
  • I'm against this proposal and more generally against limiting the player's expansion beyond natural area

    37 20.22%
  • I think the TATW team should focus on adding female dwarves instead [I don't have an opinion, I just want to see the results]

    19 10.38%
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Thread: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

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  1. #1

    Icon3 Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    Right now, every faction can expend everywhere, and after the culture conversion, exploit every settlement just like its original owner. Gondor conquers Barad Dűr? Soon it's a thriving Numénoran city, in the middle of an ash field! Elves in Moria? No problems, just put some potted plants in those underground halls and every Silvan elf will feel at home! The dwarves are taking over the Rhűnic steppes? Well, they can always dig holes in the fresh earth or something...

    Basically, and as a result of using a game engine meant for a human-only world, every faction in the game can prosper everywhere on the map. There's nothing that makes dwarves better at living in mountains, elves in Mirkwood or men in fertile plains. That just feels very wrong to me, and remove a major limitation on the expansion capacities of some races (the elves and dwarves in particular). I'm not arguing that a race couldn't hold a settlement which doesn't fit it at all, just that it shouldn't be able to proser in it: an Elven-ruled mountain settlement should see its population stagnate or decline, a human faction capturing the Lonely Mountain shouldn't be able to exploit its riches to the extent the dwarves did, and so on.

    In order to change that, I propose giving each race (humans, elves, dwarves and orcs) its own "farm" buildings, which would all be AORs. The specifics would have to be worked out, but it would be something like this:

    - Humans (good and evil): they still have farms, buildable throughout Middle-Earth save for the following zones: Mordor (except Minas Ithil?), the Great Forests (Mirkwood, Lothlorien, Fangorn) and the mountain cities.
    - Dwarves: Not sure what to call it, probably something like "Underground Dwellings", "Underground Mansions", etc. They would only be buildable in mountain areas, a major restriction on dwarven expansion that could be compensated by having them give bigger economic benefits than the human farms.
    - Orcs: they would get "pits" of various levels. I think they should be the only one able to build them in every settlements, as orcs driven by Sauron should be able to settle anywhere. The only kind of settlements where I would have spontaneously have them not develop would have been the Great Forests, but Dol Guldur is a major counter-example, so they should probably get those too. Alternatively, the OotMM would be limited to mountains like the dwarves and only Mordor and Isengard would get to build them in every city.
    - Elves: I'm really not sure what to call those, as I have little ideas of what Elven economies are built on... For the AOR though, if this was in the first age it should be everywhere except Mordor and the Mountains, but by the ending of the Third Age elves had withdrawn so much that they should be limited to the Great Forests and the "greenest" and most habitable parts of Eriador, including of course the starting areas of the High Elves. Alternatively, the Sylvan Elves could be strictly limited to the Great Forests, while the High Elves would get both areas.

    If possible, the importance of those farm-like buildings, both on population growth and on economics, should be boosted, though the effects of other buildings would have to be nerfed to compensate. The result would be that while factions can expend into settlements that do not suit them, those captured settlements will be drags on their economy, not boosting it.

    The other issue to sort out is the capture of settlements. If doable by script, the buildings in question should be automatically destroyed when captured by an other race (based on set lists of factions). If that can't be done, second-best would be to just make them "culture buildings" (without a conversion effect), which would ensure their destruction when an other culture takes the settlement. That wouldn't be as good though, as farms would be destroyed when a city changes hands between human factions of different cultures, and farms and orcish pits wouldn't get destroyed if an Evil Men faction captures an Orcish settlement or vice-versa.

    If it works though, it would allow for much more realistic faction growth and expansion, and would give the player a rational for handing back settlements to allied factions on capture. Gondor taking Moria would have a strong incentive to give it to the Dwarves, for example. And it would help make TATW a different experience from the original M2TW game.

    Edit:

    There has been a lot of reactions in this thread on the theme of "this limits the player too much!". Just to make it clear, yes it does, a bit, but not as much as many people seem to think:

    • It doesn't affect troop recruitment at all. Those stay limited by culture like now, no more, no less
    • It doesn't mean that you cannot conquer some settlements on the map. Of course you can.
    • It doesn't even mean that you cannot even benefit at all from the riches of key settlements ; Moria will still have rich mines whose income you'll get, rich trading cities will still have trade
    • It also doesn't mean that you'll be forced in any way to give settlements to your allies after capturing them


    All it would do is make the settlements in your race's "habitable areas" more prosperous and more easily growing than those outside. Elves can still hold Moria and build troops there, Dwarves can conquer Rhűn, Gondor can rule Barad Dűr - simply those cities won't do as well under owners not suited to them than they would under owners used to living in similar places.
    Last edited by Kinniken; May 26, 2009 at 12:57 PM.
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  2. #2
    OfficerJohn's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    GREAT idea...

    omg, I just realized I gave you +rep

  3. #3
    Vaul's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    Doesn't it promote a fixed territory plan for each faction, in a way? This should be mine and that should be theirs... seems a bit contrary to the TW concept, that being "everything is possible"...

  4. #4
    OfficerJohn's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaul View Post
    Doesn't it promote a fixed territory plan for each faction, in a way? This should be mine and that should be theirs... seems a bit contrary to the TW concept, that being "everything is possible"...
    Well, if you wanna play TW play TW, this mod is something different. And it should be what it is.

    All credit to the modders for making this total convertion of the game!

    There's nothing they can do that can't be done
    Nothing they can sing that can't be sung
    Nothing they can say but they can learn how to play this game
    It's easy!
    Now, this feature makes the mod even better in my opinion.

    We're not trying to make TA: Total War, we're trying to make Third Age: TW.
    If you get the difference.

  5. #5
    Vaul's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    Quote Originally Posted by OfficerJohn View Post
    Well, if you wanna play TW play TW, this mod is something different. And it should be what it is.
    I am playing TW and I get that this mod is different, I also support every initiative that adds new and specific buildings... I'm just concerned about the long-term effects of this kind of modification, I really don't like the idea of territory claimed in advance, and I doubt that such an effect could be considered "realistic".

    The idea itself is very well formulated

  6. #6

    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaul View Post
    I am playing TW and I get that this mod is different, I also support every initiative that adds new and specific buildings... I'm just concerned about the long-term effects of this kind of modification, I really don't like the idea of territory claimed in advance, and I doubt that such an effect could be considered "realistic".
    I think you are over-interpreting the effects of my proposal. There's no settlement in what I propose that ends up as "earmarked" for a faction; all the regular lands can be occupied by all the human and all the orc factions, the forests by the elves and the orcs, and even the mountains have four factions able to make use of them...

    The strongest constraint I can see is that on the good side, only the Dwarves can make good use of mountain cities. Well, that sounds realistic to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaul View Post
    The idea itself is very well formulated
    Thanks
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  7. #7
    Nikos's Avatar VENGEANCE BURNS
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    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinniken View Post
    I think you are over-interpreting the effects of my proposal. There's no settlement in what I propose that ends up as "earmarked" for a faction; all the regular lands can be occupied by all the human and all the orc factions, the forests by the elves and the orcs, and even the mountains have four factions able to make use of them...

    The strongest constraint I can see is that on the good side, only the Dwarves can make good use of mountain cities. Well, that sounds realistic to me
    The Noldor (High Elves) would be able to make good use of the Mountain cities as well. Both the Noldor and the Dwarves were about equal in smith craft (small edge to the Dwarves) and both mined and used Mithril and other precious metals.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaul View Post
    Doesn't it promote a fixed territory plan for each faction, in a way? This should be mine and that should be theirs... seems a bit contrary to the TW concept, that being "everything is possible"...

    Frankly this reminds me much of LotR-TW for RTW. While realistic - it also killed gameplay a lot. If you'd send a high elven raid on Umbar - and held the city, you'd never be able to hold the city, simply because you wouldn't be able to retrain your troops, or build more of them. It killed gameplay that Gondor could only train their professional armies in the lands of Gondor, while the traditional lands of Gondor extended far beyond the borders at the end of the third age.

    It's realistic to add this to the mod, but will kill the mod's gameplay by a big margin. Besides...one could only go halfways and remove the Tier 3 units from the unit rosters outside the kingdom's traditional borders. You'd keep your semi-strong units, but the ridiculously strong units would only be available in your homeland.


  9. #9

    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    I like this idea because I dislike the tw concept which is unrealistic in the extreme.


  10. #10
    Coeur de Lion's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    Love it!! +rep

    A similar system operates in LotR:TW and maintains the feel of the LotR world and, in my opinion, better and longer gameplay

  11. #11
    Haldir's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    Sounds like a nice idea indeed.
    It's frustrating when places such as Isengard and Barad Dur are changed so quickly (In terms of culture).

    You did say that if you were to take Moria it would be a good idea to give it to the dwarves. Who would you give mordor's settlements to?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinsRulez View Post
    You did say that if you were to take Moria it would be a good idea to give it to the dwarves. Who would you give mordor's settlements to?
    Nobody, I'm afraid. There is no race fighting against Sauron for whom occupying
    Mordor would be anything else than a continuing struggle.
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  13. #13
    Vaul's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinniken View Post
    Nobody, I'm afraid. There is no race fighting against Sauron for whom occupying
    Mordor would be anything else than a continuing struggle.
    volcanic areas, however, tend to be most fertile

  14. #14

    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    OfficerJohn, that's exactly the spirit of my modification! To Vaul, the answer is that yes it does, but in a way that doesn't force you to follow a given path too much, just try and makes it more realistic lore-wise. Human and orcs still get a huge amount of flexibility, as they should, but Dwarves and Elves are "guided" into not just building an other huge empire which makes no sense at all for them.

    Beyond the graphics and the flavour, the greatness of a mod based on Tolkien is that it allows for very different factions with very different playing style, much more than an historical one where all factions are ultimately fairly similar, being all human. I'd love to see TATW build on that, to differentiate it further from the regular game
    Broken Crescent Tool Maker

  15. #15
    Vaul's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinniken View Post
    OfficerJohn, that's exactly the spirit of my modification! To Vaul, the answer is that yes it does, but in a way that doesn't force you to follow a given path too much, just try and makes it more realistic lore-wise. Human and orcs still get a huge amount of flexibility, as they should, but Dwarves and Elves are "guided" into not just building an other huge empire which makes no sense at all for them.
    I agree with you, and also with the gentleman a few posts above who stated that the culture conversion is too fast. If this could be made more difficult, it would definitely add to the flavor.

    I just hope that the game mechanics are delicate enough for this modification not to have a "monotonous expansion effect"

  16. #16

    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    Sounds pretty cool! Are you able to do this?

  17. #17
    OfficerJohn's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    Ithilien should be livable for the Elves...

    And the territory is not "claimed in advance", or, those who are should be. I think the Dwarves should get Moria anyways, and so on.

  18. #18
    Hakon's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    This is a great idea. I think one it will make the game more realistic and two more challenging. Also call the elvish building like farm in elvish or something else in elvish.

  19. #19
    Blackomur89's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    GREAT IDEA!
    2D artist for Call of Warhammer TW; 2D artist for Westeros TW; 2D artist and researcher for The Ruins of Arnor TATW sub-mod; 2D artist for Warcraft TW.

  20. #20
    Aikanár's Avatar no vaseline
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    Default Re: Proposal: race-specific "livable areas"

    To be honest, I love this proposal, i really do!

    @High Elves and Mountain Settlements:
    Nargothrond, Gondolin and Menegroth do not count as arguments for the High Elves to get the
    ability to grow their population in mountain-based settlements in TATW.

    Nargothrond had huge, and I mean huge, sorrounding lands of high fertility which were guarded
    very well till the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Most of the supplies of Nargothrond must have come from
    those regions.

    Gondolin had fertile ground within the fencing of the Echoriath, they were never realy discribed by
    JRRT in detail, but if one reads the UT and the BotlT I&II one gets a real good impression of the
    size of the land fenced in by the Echoriath.

    As for Menegroth, well, the surrounding forests say all, don't they?

    PS: Ah, I almost forgot, +rep for this brilliant idea!
    Last edited by Aikanár; May 23, 2009 at 09:41 AM.

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