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    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Failure in Afghanistan would mean more than just a bloody nose for the US or a country under Taliban rule (though that alone is horrendous, the Taliban being as evil as the Nazis (genocide included)), but the consequences are far more horrible.

    First, it will result in intense destabilization of Central Asia and India. Islamic Fundamental movements are on the rise in Central Asia, ever since the 1990s. These organizations, especially the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, were supported and trained by the Taliban and their masters Al Qaeda (Al Qaeda controlled the Taliban by purposefully making them reliant upon Al Qaeda's support. Originally the ISI were their masters, but Al Qaeda took over, though Al Qaeda and the ISI were allies). The IMU is involved in multiple Central Asian states, and after it took a beating they were given shelter in Afghanistan and became a front line force in the Taliban Army. They probably remain among the troops fighting ISAF and ANG forces in Afghanistan. Other Central Asian organizations, including Chechnyian forces are also among the troops trained in Afghanistan. With the Central Asian dictators becoming increasingly repressive Islamic Fundamentalists groups are becoming more and more popular. And since elections are not an option they are willing to use terrorist tactics to achieve their goals. There is a reason Russia and the Central Asian states were the biggest supporters of the Northern Alliance pre-911. India is also a target of decentralization, especially in Kashmir. Afghanistan was the training grounds of the Kashmir Insurgent groups, and Al Qaeda was utilized for the training, and helped the ISI pick who to send (the chief recruiting officer of Al Qaeda was also the man in charge of vetting potential Kashmiri insurgents). Again, there is a reason India pumps billions into Afghanistan and supported the ISI.

    Second, the Taliban in Pakistan are far more powerful than before, and with Afghanistan as a base can destabilize Pakistan... again. Already the Taliban have taken control of ground from Pakistan, and are outside Islamabad. Should they regain control of Afghanistan and lose the threat of ISAF forces they will be able to become even more of a threat. This will likely result in two equally bad outcomes: further destabilization of nuclear Pakistan, or a return of a military rule that openly supports aggressive Jihad to a degree of Zia.

    Third, the drug problem. Already Afghanistan provides at least 42% of the world's opium. The Taliban, with their alliance with the drug lords, will likely expand production should they regain control. I am aware they got rid of it during their first rule, but I believe that is extremely unlikely. They have recently been able to justify selling it to fight Jihad, and with an increased rule they will likely keep the justification and use the money to buy arms and train, finance and equip other organizations as they have done before (tieing in with #1). This flooding of opiates could devastate Iran, and hurts Europe the main recipient of Afghan opium.

    These issues are not the result of the invasion (though the mismanagement played a part in allowing them to regrow as it did), they were an issue before the invasion (except Opium, however the invasion removed, for now at least, the ability of the Taliban to attack Uzbekistan through the IMU). Especially the danger of the Taliban to Central Asian stability (again Central Asian support for the NA was extremely high), however these issues will return to a greater degree should the Taliban win and be able to use the view of the ability to beat the US, and if they have the time to destroy the ANG and take control of all of Afghanistan.
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    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Afghanistan would already be free by now without the Iraq War and it would be easier to fight without the Iraq War.


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    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    Afghanistan would already be free by now without the Iraq War and it would be easier to fight without the Iraq War.
    Hard to argue with that, however it doesn't lessen the importance of the Afghan War.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    Failure in Afghanistan would mean more than just a bloody nose for the US or a country under Taliban rule (though that alone is horrendous, the Taliban being as evil as the Nazis (genocide included)), but the consequences are far more horrible.

    First, it will result in intense destabilization of Central Asia and India. Islamic Fundamental movements are on the rise in Central Asia, ever since the 1990s. These organizations, especially the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, were supported and trained by the Taliban and their masters Al Qaeda (Al Qaeda controlled the Taliban by purposefully making them reliant upon Al Qaeda's support. Originally the ISI were their masters, but Al Qaeda took over, though Al Qaeda and the ISI were allies). The IMU is involved in multiple Central Asian states, and after it took a beating they were given shelter in Afghanistan and became a front line force in the Taliban Army. They probably remain among the troops fighting ISAF and ANG forces in Afghanistan. Other Central Asian organizations, including Chechnyian forces are also among the troops trained in Afghanistan. With the Central Asian dictators becoming increasingly repressive Islamic Fundamentalists groups are becoming more and more popular. And since elections are not an option they are willing to use terrorist tactics to achieve their goals. There is a reason Russia and the Central Asian states were the biggest supporters of the Northern Alliance pre-911. India is also a target of decentralization, especially in Kashmir. Afghanistan was the training grounds of the Kashmir Insurgent groups, and Al Qaeda was utilized for the training, and helped the ISI pick who to send (the chief recruiting officer of Al Qaeda was also the man in charge of vetting potential Kashmiri insurgents). Again, there is a reason India pumps billions into Afghanistan and supported the ISI.

    Second, the Taliban in Pakistan are far more powerful than before, and with Afghanistan as a base can destabilize Pakistan... again. Already the Taliban have taken control of ground from Pakistan, and are outside Islamabad. Should they regain control of Afghanistan and lose the threat of ISAF forces they will be able to become even more of a threat. This will likely result in two equally bad outcomes: further destabilization of nuclear Pakistan, or a return of a military rule that openly supports aggressive Jihad to a degree of Zia.

    Third, the drug problem. Already Afghanistan provides at least 42% of the world's opium. The Taliban, with their alliance with the drug lords, will likely expand production should they regain control. I am aware they got rid of it during their first rule, but I believe that is extremely unlikely. They have recently been able to justify selling it to fight Jihad, and with an increased rule they will likely keep the justification and use the money to buy arms and train, finance and equip other organizations as they have done before (tieing in with #1). This flooding of opiates could devastate Iran, and hurts Europe the main recipient of Afghan opium.

    These issues are not the result of the invasion (though the mismanagement played a part in allowing them to regrow as it did), they were an issue before the invasion (except Opium, however the invasion removed, for now at least, the ability of the Taliban to attack Uzbekistan through the IMU). Especially the danger of the Taliban to Central Asian stability (again Central Asian support for the NA was extremely high), however these issues will return to a greater degree should the Taliban win and be able to use the view of the ability to beat the US, and if they have the time to destroy the ANG and take control of all of Afghanistan.
    agreed on all except for the drugs. it is a livelihood for too many Afghans and trying to fight a drug war in Afghanistan right now may be counterproductive. im not talking about the drug lords, im talking about the poor farmers they exploit.

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    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by manofarms89 View Post
    agreed on all except for the drugs. it is a livelihood for too many Afghans and trying to fight a drug war in Afghanistan right now may be counterproductive. im not talking about the drug lords, im talking about the poor farmers they exploit.
    I know what your talking about, fighting the drug war right now would be counterproductive, however once Afghanistan achieves the right level of stability we can start working on either introducing alternative crops or making Afghanistan a source for medical opiates.

    Should the Taliban take control and we lose interest that won't happen.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    I know what your talking about, fighting the drug war right now would be counterproductive, however once Afghanistan achieves the right level of stability we can start working on either introducing alternative crops or making Afghanistan a source for medical opiates.

    Should the Taliban take control and we lose interest that won't happen.
    true, no need to leave Afghanistan with just one cash crop, diversifying its agricultural output would be beneficial indeed.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Do you read the news Farnan? Or do you sit in a cave with finger sin your ears showing "Blah Blah Blah" so that you don't hear anything?

    The Taliban are being beaten back. While I know your anti-Pakistani heart will groan in sadness that our boys in green are killing Taliban in dozens, not the otherway as you'd like it, but they are no where near Islamabad anymore. And pray tell how would you capture Islamabad when you have not one, but two army depots with the air force bases right next to Islamabad with Rawalipindi being a military town and in the way? Of course you don't, you just like running Anti-Pakistani news just so your heart can dance with joy at the sight of my brave countrymen dying.

    Why all this news just has to be fake right Farnan?

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/...r-areas--bi-08
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/...+taliban-za-10
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/...clashes--bi-10
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/provinces/07-troops-encircle-swat-cut-off-taliban-escape-routes-ha-05
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/provinces/09-military-pounds-militant-positions-in-south-waziristan-szh--10

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by The Turkish Sultan View Post
    Do you read the news Farnan? Or do you sit in a cave with finger sin your ears showing "Blah Blah Blah" so that you don't hear anything?

    The Taliban are being beaten back. While I know your anti-Pakistani heart will groan in sadness that our boys in green are killing Taliban in dozens, not the otherway as you'd like it, but they are no where near Islamabad anymore. And pray tell how would you capture Islamabad when you have not one, but two army depots with the air force bases right next to Islamabad with Rawalipindi being a military town and in the way? Of course you don't, you just like running Anti-Pakistani news just so your heart can dance with joy at the sight of my brave countrymen dying.

    Why all this news just has to be fake right Farnan?

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/...r-areas--bi-08
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/...+taliban-za-10
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/...clashes--bi-10
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/provinces/07-troops-encircle-swat-cut-off-taliban-escape-routes-ha-05
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/provinces/09-military-pounds-militant-positions-in-south-waziristan-szh--10

    Oddly I saw this today..

    UN seeks $543 million for Pakistan war refugees

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    UN seeks $543 million for Pakistan war refugees
    By CHRIS BRUMMITT – 23 hours ago
    ISLAMABAD (AP) — The United Nations appealed Friday for $543 million to ease the "incredible suffering" of nearly 2 million refugees from Pakistan's war against Taliban militants.
    The world body said the money was urgently needed to fund some 165 projects drawn up by U.N. agencies and aid groups to assist civilians fleeing the conflict centered on the northwestern Swat Valley.
    "The scale of this displacement is extraordinary in terms of size and speed and has caused incredible suffering," Martin Mogwanja, the acting U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Pakistan, said in a statement.
    "We are calling for generous support from the international community," he said.
    An estimated 1.9 million people have fled the fighting in Swat and two neighboring districts since the army launched an offensive last month to halt a Taliban advance toward the capital, Islamabad. More than 160,000 are staying in sweltering camps just south of the battle zone; the rest have been taken in by relatives.
    The government said Thursday that foreign donors had already pledged $224 million to help the displaced. Pakistan, which is heavily dependent on foreign aid, has pledged $100 million of its own. It was unclear if those funds would count toward the total sought by the U.N.
    Donors are rushing to help the displaced in part to protect the pro-Western government from the political fallout of a military operation begun under strong U.S. pressure.
    The Obama administration has declared eliminating militant havens in Pakistan vital to its goals of defeating al-Qaida and winning the war in Afghanistan.
    But an army failure or a botched relief effort in Swat would further undermine Pakistani enthusiasm for tough military action inside its own borders.
    "There is an urgent need for a joint and comprehensive response to this issue by all those who are committed to fighting terrorism," Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani said at a donors' conference on Thursday. "Without peace there can be no sustainable development and without development the establishment of enduring peace is impossible."
    The army claims it has killed more than 1,000 militants and won back some territory in the Swat region, which was popular with holiday makers before the Taliban took over, enforcing a hardline brand of Islamic law and beheading opponents.
    But it faces stiff resistance from thousands more fighters and has ventured no prediction of when the Taliban will be defeated. Some refugees have accused the military of killing civilians with indiscriminate shelling.
    On Thursday, the army said five soldiers and an unspecified number of Taliban were killed in battles in several parts of the valley during the previous 24 hours. Seven militants were captured, a military statement said.
    In another part of the border region, a suicide car bomber attacked a paramilitary fort in the town of Jandola, killing four soldiers and four civilians, intelligence officials said.
    Jandola lies on the edge of South Waziristan, a tribal region where U.S. aircraft have mounted a string of missile attacks over the past year.
    American officials say the tribal belt is the most likely hiding place of fugitive al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden.
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    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Oddly I saw this today..

    UN seeks $543 million for Pakistan war refugees

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    UN seeks $543 million for Pakistan war refugees
    By CHRIS BRUMMITT – 23 hours ago
    ISLAMABAD (AP) — The United Nations appealed Friday for $543 million to ease the "incredible suffering" of nearly 2 million refugees from Pakistan's war against Taliban militants.
    The world body said the money was urgently needed to fund some 165 projects drawn up by U.N. agencies and aid groups to assist civilians fleeing the conflict centered on the northwestern Swat Valley.
    "The scale of this displacement is extraordinary in terms of size and speed and has caused incredible suffering," Martin Mogwanja, the acting U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Pakistan, said in a statement.
    "We are calling for generous support from the international community," he said.
    An estimated 1.9 million people have fled the fighting in Swat and two neighboring districts since the army launched an offensive last month to halt a Taliban advance toward the capital, Islamabad. More than 160,000 are staying in sweltering camps just south of the battle zone; the rest have been taken in by relatives.
    The government said Thursday that foreign donors had already pledged $224 million to help the displaced. Pakistan, which is heavily dependent on foreign aid, has pledged $100 million of its own. It was unclear if those funds would count toward the total sought by the U.N.
    Donors are rushing to help the displaced in part to protect the pro-Western government from the political fallout of a military operation begun under strong U.S. pressure.
    The Obama administration has declared eliminating militant havens in Pakistan vital to its goals of defeating al-Qaida and winning the war in Afghanistan.
    But an army failure or a botched relief effort in Swat would further undermine Pakistani enthusiasm for tough military action inside its own borders.
    "There is an urgent need for a joint and comprehensive response to this issue by all those who are committed to fighting terrorism," Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani said at a donors' conference on Thursday. "Without peace there can be no sustainable development and without development the establishment of enduring peace is impossible."
    The army claims it has killed more than 1,000 militants and won back some territory in the Swat region, which was popular with holiday makers before the Taliban took over, enforcing a hardline brand of Islamic law and beheading opponents.
    But it faces stiff resistance from thousands more fighters and has ventured no prediction of when the Taliban will be defeated. Some refugees have accused the military of killing civilians with indiscriminate shelling.
    On Thursday, the army said five soldiers and an unspecified number of Taliban were killed in battles in several parts of the valley during the previous 24 hours. Seven militants were captured, a military statement said.
    In another part of the border region, a suicide car bomber attacked a paramilitary fort in the town of Jandola, killing four soldiers and four civilians, intelligence officials said.
    Jandola lies on the edge of South Waziristan, a tribal region where U.S. aircraft have mounted a string of missile attacks over the past year.
    American officials say the tribal belt is the most likely hiding place of fugitive al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden.
    So? We are fighting America's war, not ours. If our people are displaced because of it, then by all means bill the US.

  10. #10

    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by The Turkish Sultan View Post
    So? We are fighting America's war, not ours. If our people are displaced because of it, then by all means bill the US.
    No you are fighting your own war by a monster you guys created, you reap what you sow that is basically what you said in the other thread about the NY terror plot no? Suck it up, pay the price for your countries idiocy and enjoy the cesspool Pakistan is becoming.

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    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by The Turkish Sultan View Post
    Do you read the news Farnan? Or do you sit in a cave with finger sin your ears showing "Blah Blah Blah" so that you don't hear anything?

    The Taliban are being beaten back. While I know your anti-Pakistani heart will groan in sadness that our boys in green are killing Taliban in dozens, not the otherway as you'd like it, but they are no where near Islamabad anymore. And pray tell how would you capture Islamabad when you have not one, but two army depots with the air force bases right next to Islamabad with Rawalipindi being a military town and in the way? Of course you don't, you just like running Anti-Pakistani news just so your heart can dance with joy at the sight of my brave countrymen dying.

    Why all this news just has to be fake right Farnan?

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/...r-areas--bi-08
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/...+taliban-za-10
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/...clashes--bi-10
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/provinces/07-troops-encircle-swat-cut-off-taliban-escape-routes-ha-05
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/provinces/09-military-pounds-militant-positions-in-south-waziristan-szh--10
    Dawn Media Group: Leave us alone, we're doing fine.
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    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    Failure in Afghanistan would mean more than just a bloody nose for the US or a country under Taliban rule (though that alone is horrendous, the Taliban being as evil as the Nazis (genocide included)), but the consequences are far more horrible.
    sounds eerily similar to what ppl who were for the vietnam war said about pulling out of vietnam

    First, it will result in intense destabilization of Central Asia and India. Islamic Fundamental movements are on the rise in Central Asia, ever since the 1990s.
    ah there it is, the allusion to the modern 'domino effect'

    These organizations, especially the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, were supported and trained by the Taliban and their masters Al Qaeda (Al Qaeda controlled the Taliban by purposefully making them reliant upon Al Qaeda's support. Originally the ISI were their masters, but Al Qaeda took over, though Al Qaeda and the ISI were allies). The IMU is involved in multiple Central Asian states, and after it took a beating they were given shelter in Afghanistan and became a front line force in the Taliban Army. They probably remain among the troops fighting ISAF and ANG forces in Afghanistan. Other Central Asian organizations, including Chechnyian forces are also among the troops trained in Afghanistan. With the Central Asian dictators becoming increasingly repressive Islamic Fundamentalists groups are becoming more and more popular. And since elections are not an option they are willing to use terrorist tactics to achieve their goals. There is a reason Russia and the Central Asian states were the biggest supporters of the Northern Alliance pre-911. India is also a target of decentralization, especially in Kashmir. Afghanistan was the training grounds of the Kashmir Insurgent groups, and Al Qaeda was utilized for the training, and helped the ISI pick who to send (the chief recruiting officer of Al Qaeda was also the man in charge of vetting potential Kashmiri insurgents). Again, there is a reason India pumps billions into Afghanistan and supported the ISI
    i doubt that islamic fundamentalism is as bad as you say it is in central asia; and i agree the taliban were horrible and need to be wasted but we must also address the reasons why ppl enlist in the taliban.
    is it islamic fundamentalism? or is it a socio-evonomic factor?

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sounds eerily similar to what ppl who were for the vietnam war said about pulling out of vietnam


    ah there it is, the allusion to the modern 'domino effect'



    i doubt that islamic fundamentalism is as bad as you say it is in central asia; and i agree the taliban were horrible and need to be wasted but we must also address the reasons why ppl enlist in the taliban.
    is it islamic fundamentalism? or is it a socio-evonomic factor?
    I agree. Not all of central asia would be vulnerable to Islamic insurgents. Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and possibly parts of Uzbekistan, maybe. Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan are nowhere near Islamic enough in culture for fundamentalists to gain any real support.

    Now of course they could cause problems, but there is no way they would turn Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan into failed states like Afghanistan.

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    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Pakistan created the Taliban...?

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    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by ivan_the_terrible View Post
    Pakistan created the Taliban...?
    They funded them when they formed in 1994 to provide "strategic depth" against any future Indian attack on Pakistan.

    This is understandable from the Pakistani point of view since we have gone to war 4 times.
    Last edited by Babur; May 23, 2009 at 07:24 AM.
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    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    So? We are fighting America's war, not ours. If our people are displaced because of it, then by all means bill the US.
    Even your government has admitted that is not the case. And BTW, I respect the fact that Pakistan is finally getting its act together, but it is long overdue.



    @Farnan, some very good points. Hopefully we can pull this off and its not too late.
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    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Let hardline muslims fight there own wars and kill ther own people, replacing a very very bad goverment with a very bad goverment is not the awnser.
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    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    While the United States has some interest in overall stability it does not however have much interest on the type of governments are in power unless those governments would further destabilize the region. But lets not pretend that we are concerned with islamic fundamentalism for the sake of it being a reactionary belief and the possible resulting "maltreatment" of the rest of the population.

    At the moment the Taliban do not seem capable of simply overthrowing the present government in pakistan. If anything these minor battles and small campaigns will be occurring in the many years to come. While this conflict destabilizes Pakistan and drags down their economy it could be possible that the country descends into full blown civil war but again I doubt the Taliban and some of the pakistani tribes will be able to reign over the entire state of pakistan. But then of course it does not have to get to that point for US interest to be threatened.

    Although I am curious as to how the war was progressing between the Northern alliance and the Taliban prior to the US direct involvement in the region. As I recall the Taliban were making progress and the Northern Alliance's expense.

    Quote Originally Posted by ivan_the_terrible View Post
    Pakistan created the Taliban...?
    Not really created but provided all sorts of things that would help the Taliban stay in power in Afghanistan.

    Quote Originally Posted by IPA35 View Post
    Let hardline muslims fight there own wars and kill ther own people, replacing a very very bad goverment with a very bad goverment is not the awnser.
    What is the question? The question should be what interests the US has in the region and whether or not they will be affected in a way that does not benefit the United States by current conflicts in the region and specifically the Taliban and Pakistan War.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by IPA35 View Post
    Let hardline muslims fight there own wars and kill ther own people, replacing a very very bad goverment with a very bad goverment is not the awnser.
    If they continue fighting each other they will just end up de-stabalizing the region. I don't know about you, but I would like for Pakistan to remain at least semi-peaceful if possible. Especially when you consider the Nuclear Missiles they have at their disposal.

    NATO with all it's armies and money can't even get two countries under control. Granted Afghanistan could probably have been peaceful by now if the entire effor that was put into Iraq was put into Afghanistan. But even if, what country in the region could possibly send that many troops there that could achieve the same thing and even worse afford it?

    Afghanistan isn't a country you can just let go. Even worse though, leaving Afghanistan isn't just loosing face for the United States. It basically shows that NATO is an incappable organization that can't even properly strike back at those that attacked them. The last thing you want to do is let an extremist government that is not held back by any allies or any kind of international law, whose government's most important goal is to create an Islamic superstate walk around freely. Also consider this.

    If Afghanistan comes back under an Islamic extremists rule then their attention would most likely be turned towards Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, with Pakistan being the first as that country has the most trouble right now. Now Pakistan is already on thin ice with India, and they are both nuclear powers. How long do you think it will take before India deems it necessary to intervene and to keep those nuclear weapons outside the hands of the extremists groups, or the rest of the world for that matter. Leaving Afghanistan unfinished, could create a situation were we would soon have to be fighting in Pakistan, in a long bloody civil war until the Nuclear Missiles are finally retreated. After which we will most likely just leave the country alone and all of a sudden you have two countries under Islamic extremists rule.

    We need to finish the job in Afghanistan. Preferably the one in Iraq as well. That country falling apart wouldn't be really good either.

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    Default Re: The Consequences of Failure in Afghanistan are Outstanding

    Quote Originally Posted by The Turkish Sultan View Post
    Do you read the news Farnan? Or do you sit in a cave with finger sin your ears showing "Blah Blah Blah" so that you don't hear anything?

    The Taliban are being beaten back. While I know your anti-Pakistani heart will groan in sadness that our boys in green are killing Taliban in dozens, not the otherway as you'd like it, but they are no where near Islamabad anymore. And pray tell how would you capture Islamabad when you have not one, but two army depots with the air force bases right next to Islamabad with Rawalipindi being a military town and in the way? Of course you don't, you just like running Anti-Pakistani news just so your heart can dance with joy at the sight of my brave countrymen dying.

    Why all this news just has to be fake right Farnan?

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/...r-areas--bi-08
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/...+taliban-za-10
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/...clashes--bi-10
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/provinces/07-troops-encircle-swat-cut-off-taliban-escape-routes-ha-05
    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/provinces/09-military-pounds-militant-positions-in-south-waziristan-szh--10
    Oh I know the Taliban won't overthrow the Pakistani government, but they will create a situation that will enable another military regime in effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sounds eerily similar to what ppl who were for the vietnam war said about pulling out of vietnam
    And it happened...

    Look up the Hmong and Mountagaird (sp)

    However, this case is even more seeing as we know what they actually did, and that includes genocide of the Hazara.

    ah there it is, the allusion to the modern 'domino effect'
    Actually the domino effect did happen...

    Not saying it justified the war there but it did...

    However, in Taliban Afghanistan it is a fact they trained fighters for Uzbekistan and Kashmir among other places.

    i doubt that islamic fundamentalism is as bad as you say it is in central asia; and i agree the taliban were horrible and need to be wasted but we must also address the reasons why ppl enlist in the taliban.
    is it islamic fundamentalism? or is it a socio-evonomic factor?
    Oh its bad, especially in Uzbekistan. There are no rights in Uzbekistan and their leader is anti-Islam (despite his name of Islam) which has generated extreme backlash and fundamentalist groups gaining power. Kyrgyzstan is probably better, however its significant Uzbek minority housed the IMU so they may face regional problems.

    It is socio-economic factors that must be addressed along with preventing a Taliban resurgence.

    Quote Originally Posted by ivan_the_terrible View Post
    I agree. Not all of central asia would be vulnerable to Islamic insurgents. Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and possibly parts of Uzbekistan, maybe. Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan are nowhere near Islamic enough in culture for fundamentalists to gain any real support.

    Now of course they could cause problems, but there is no way they would turn Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan into failed states like Afghanistan.
    Uzbekistan is the worse of all of them, and if they, Tajikistan and Turkmenistan fall, and there is a regional insurgency in Kyrgyzstan it will be awful for regional stability and hurt Kazakhstan and Russia.

    Quote Originally Posted by ivan_the_terrible View Post
    Pakistan created the Taliban...?
    Yep, the ISI. Give me a few minutes and I'll give the name of the general.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

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