Melee infantry functions, tactics and weapons

[Smaug]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the functions of different infantry melee units on the battlefield. Dwarves boast a good variety of melee infantry so let's have them as an example.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Axemen of Erebor:
Attack: 10
Charge: 6
Armour: 13
Skill: 3
Other: AP, slashing

Dwarven Axemen:
Attack: 9
Charge: 6
Armour: 10
Skill: 4
Other: AP, slashing

Dwarven Halberdmen:
Attack: 6
Charge: 3
Armour: 9
Skill: 3
Other: AP, piercing

Vault Warden:
Attack: 3
Charge: 4
Armour: 6
Skill: 2
Other: piercing

Dragonslayers of Ered-Mithrin:
Attack: 8
Charge: 5
Armour: 12
Skill: 2
Shield: 6
Other: AP, blunt

Iron guard:
Attack: 11
Charge: 5
Armour: 15
Skill: 3
Shield: 5
Other: Piercing

What is the purpose of each unit?

For example: Why not use Halberdmen against cavalry instead of Vault Wardens since they seem to have better stats in all aspects? Are Axemen of Erebor simply a better version of Axemen? What about Dragonslayers and Iron Guard? Iron Guard is simply better or does Dragonslayers have an advantage over something? Are Axemen of Erebor better than Iron Guard against cavalry?

How would you build your dwarven army in terms of melee infantry and for what purpose would you use each choice?

[the_mango55]

Vault Wardens have pikes, meaning multiple ranks can attack at the same time, so they are more deadly than halberds.

Dragonslayers have axes which are AP. They kill heavily armored units, trolls especially, much easier than IG.

[gary0044187]

I agree with mango but I still use a few halberdmen to hold the flanks of my pike formations. I back them up with an axe/shield unit in case they need that help.

Axemen of Erebor are just better versions of axemen. Except that you can build axemen anywhere. Problem is that when you finally get far enough from Erebor to warrent getting axemen you have probably unlocked vault wardens and Iron Guard.

Because Dragonslayers have AP, I find them to be all around better than Iron Guard, but eventually you get far enough away from Dain's Halls that it becomes hard to replace them.

The question of iron guard or axemen of Erebor vs Cavalry is kinda flawed. First, are we talking surviving the charge of cavalry or we talking if we get a drop on the cav? Because if the cav is charging, you want the guard in there, that shield might save a few dudes. however if the cavalry is not charging, then yes you want axemen over iron guards. the AP is extremely important. which is kinda why I like dragonslayers more than iron guard to begin with. that said, by the time I have access to iron guard I have about 8 young dwarven generals with unredeemable qualities that get sent to the front lines and fill up spots I would have given iron guard or dragonslayers. Dwarven noblemen are like what the iron guard should have been. a sword wielding unit that comes available after everyone starts wearing armor is kinda silly, especially since the whole rest of the army is comprised of AP.

edit- just saw the last question.

I build a dwarven army to compensate for the lack of maneuverability. I keep 6 units of Crossbowmen and 4 Catapults. I use 2 Vault Wardens, 2 Halberders, 2 Axes of Erebor, 2 Dragonslayers, and 2 Generals Bodyguards. The average person might think I am lacking in melee capability but I am not. Dwarven Crossbowmen are only slightly worse in melee than dwarven warriors. I currently have 2 armies like this in close proximity to each other. I have a back up army nearby with the rest of my axemen and dragonslayers ready to replinish losses. the back up army also has a few extra catapults, archers, halberds and pikes. also in case I lose a general, I have 4 more about 3 turns back bringing up fresh archers, halberds and pikes.

[DeliCious.vP]

To have this discussion one most have the knowledge and understanding of all diffrent unit types.

Starting with Pike > all
a Pike unit with 2 damage kill a halberg unit with 12. why ? because many pikes can hit at the same time. They attack from a distance and the attack moves very quiickly

[Valiant Champion]

I know spearmen are not geared to stop cavalry like they should. light_spear, Spear_bonus 4 isn't satisfactory. They need to at least be at .. spear, spear_bonus 8.

Mass at 1 - 1.2 seems to be a bit weak as well for spearmen units. I will need to examine the mount file to see what some of the mounts masses are.

This also might help with fighting trolls which from my understanding are read as horse.

[Point Blank]

I know spearmen are not geared to stop cavalry like they should. light_spear, Spear_bonus 4 isn't satisfactory. They need to at least be at .. spear, spear_bonus 8.

Mass at 1 - 1.2 seems to be a bit weak as well for spearmen units. I will need to examine the mount file to see what some of the mounts masses are.

This also might help with fighting trolls which from my understanding are read as horse.

Trolls are heavy infantry.

You are basing your opinions of how effective spearmen should be versus cavalry on what?

[Valiant Champion]

Trolls are heavy infantry.

You are basing your opinions of how effective spearmen should be versus cavalry on what?

Your right on the trolls. I checked them out. Not sure where I read that someone claimed they were read as cavalry.

However spearmen should be specialized to stop mounted troops. If they do the same job as swordsmen without penalties than why have swordsmen? light spear and spear_bonus 4 is pretty weak vs. the cavalry mounts that have anywhere between 2 to 3.5 mass and the charge bonuses are around 10 or more on the high end cavalry.

[Daergar]

Not sure all spearmen would be anti-cavalry in that sense. I mean, an infantry spear designed to work in the hoplite fashion won't be all that spiffy when it comes to stopping a charging warhorse. You'll just get run over, through and smashed into a pulp.

While on spears, what is the premium way to use spearmen who can use the shieldwall, such as the citadel guard and high elven spearmen. Shieldwall, no guard stance and charge is what I tend to use, which looks effective but I'm never sure I use them right.

[Point Blank]

The problem with the 'spear' attribute is that is makes spearmen underpowered versus infantry unfortunately.

If you look back, historically the spear is rarely ever mentioned specifically as an anti-cavalry weapon. It does provide some reach but a charge will still be dangerous, as the spear is not braced in any special way, as Daergar said. Which is why it was found necessary to go to pikes.

But in terms of balance in TATW, if you want 'rock-paper-scissors', you could use the 'spear' attribute, though spear gives +8 versus cav, and typically another +8 from spear_bonus_8, added to spear attack of say 5 = 21, way too much IMHO, quite a lot more than a 2H sword.

Using light_spear and spear_bonus_4 gives a spear attack vs cavalry of about 13, still fine, and provides a perhaps more realistic amount of charge resistance, as well as making the spearmen better versus infantry.

[Muffer Nl]

Spear Bonus 8 means attack * 8 against Cavalry.

[Point Blank]

Spear Bonus 8 means attack * 8 against Cavalry.

It means attack +8, not *8.

[DeliCious.vP]

rock papper sciscor balance is the worst kind. and should be used in minor aspects.

rock papper sciscor balance is the easiest to master thou. RTS today has used it to the extreme and in return uttely failed. RA3,HW, Maybe thats another story thou. i think making every unit descent against most units is good and to balance it add Super units Such as trolls mummakills berserkers Sindar archers. I still feal that gondor lack this sort of unit.

Knights of Dol amroth is a joke the infantry is just like any other infantry with a few more stats numbers. The white tree elite spearmens are okay. but hardly super.

[Valiant Champion]

So Charles the Hammer Martel would have defeated the Moors just as easily if he had used axemen or swordsmen in his hedgehog instead of spearmen?

What about the Byzantine Foulkon?

Ceasars use of spearmen to defeat Pompeii's cavalry instead of the typical Roman legionairies?

[Point Blank]

No, I'm not saying that, and yes spears have some better effect versus cavalry. But to use the example of Charles Martel, those men were veterans, in very heavy (for the time) armor, in wooded terrain, defending downhill, and had been trained by Martel for a long time to gain the discipline to withstand cavalry charges. And the Arab cavalry, considered heavy for the time but light by later medieval standards, still broke their line, in very unfavourable circumstances, on several occasions, and also almost managed to kill Martel himself if not for the intervention of his personal guard. In fact those men did what was considered impossible, withstand heavy cavalry.

The average spear unit would have been swept away.

All I am saying, is that 'spear' provides too much charge resistance, and makes spears too good vs cav in melee compared to other weapons.

Pompei's cavalry etc were very light compared to medieval cavalry, as well as horses of that era had not been bred and trained to the size of their medieval counterparts.

Try running some lightly-armored mounted sergeants in SS into average spearmen (with light_spear), and the spearmen will resist the charge very well.

Anyway, using 'spear' penalizes them too much in melee.

[Smaug]

In my dwarves campaign Vault Wardens seem to do quite well against all orcish infantry - even their heaviest ones.

[gary0044187]

yeah Kikka, pike do that.

[lennartje]

yeah Kikka, pike do that.

Until their lines get smashed (it happens) and they decide to have their spearwall facing the other way Like Sauron himself told that the crossbowmen are more evil than Goblins.

[Smaug]

yeah Kikka, pike do that.

What's the use of having sword/axe infantry in your army, if pikes can alone handle cavalry as well as infantry?

[Achilla]

What's the use of having sword/axe infantry in your army, if pikes can alone handle cavalry as well as infantry?

Recruitment pools and their replenishment rate won't allow you to field pike-based armies. Pike units become vulnerable in melee and easier to break formation outside spearwall. With spearwall on though they move very slowly. If charged from rear or side, they take much higher casualties than spearmen, being prepared to fade off an attack just from one side. Finally, they are easy prey for any kind of missiles and won't help you much vs a bit more clever enemy. Each weapon has it's both historical and in games practical use, I wouldn't go that far saying pike units outmatch every other melee unit. They don't ... I'd rather exchange them for spearmen for their versatility and good missile resist.

[Smaug]

Thanks Achilla.

A new theme to discuss: What is the purpose and function in battlefield of the Loke-Halberd unit compared to the Loke-Maul unit of the Easterlings faction?