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    ptolemy1989's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Achilles and Patroclus

    do all of you think Achilles and Patroclus were just close war buddies as Xenophon argued or lovers as Plato stated?

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    Starlightman's Avatar Calling Card
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    Default Re: Achilles and Patroclus

    Before i close this thread i like to know your personal view about this...with arguments...

    ________Team Member of CBURIGreat Conflicts 872-1071 ________
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    [COLOR=Red]
    "You can fool all of the people some of the time
    You can fool some of the people all of the time
    But you can't fool all of the people all of the time. "
    Abraham Lincoln, 1864

    "There are three truths: my truth, your truth and the truth."
    Chinese Proverb

    Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    It's relevent if you argue the Elgin Marbles should be returned to Athens because they were "stolen", because the Athenians themselves stole the money to produce them.

    ________________________________________________________________

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    ptolemy1989's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Achilles and Patroclus

    i like the idea of Achilles being a solder avenging his comrade rather a lover avenging his err "partner" so i am with Xenophon on this one

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    Starlightman's Avatar Calling Card
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    Default Re: Achilles and Patroclus

    Quote Originally Posted by ptolemy1989 View Post
    i like the idea of Achilles being a solder avenging his comrade rather a lover avenging his err "partner" so i am with Xenophon on this one
    Do you know how old was Achilles and Patroclus...and their relationship?How much you know about Myrmidones...?

    You believe your above argument are correct and "concrete"and standing with Xenophon on this?and why we believe Xenophon ?why not Plato?cause you like it more?

    Hegemonia forum are not a forum to discuss the sexuality of Achilles or Patroclus or Megas Alexandros....this is a forum about City states...how close historically are Achilles/Patroclus on this....?



    i forgot....check also this one thread...i believe your question belongs there...

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=251442
    Last edited by Starlightman; May 22, 2009 at 05:32 PM.

    ________Team Member of CBURIGreat Conflicts 872-1071 ________
    Dominion of the Sword
    IGreece Playable & Improvement mod BETA
    _________ Roman Warship 50 B.C 1/250 scaleIAthenian Trireme _________

    __________under the patronage of noble Okmin-san ___________








    [COLOR=Red]
    "You can fool all of the people some of the time
    You can fool some of the people all of the time
    But you can't fool all of the people all of the time. "
    Abraham Lincoln, 1864

    "There are three truths: my truth, your truth and the truth."
    Chinese Proverb

    Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    It's relevent if you argue the Elgin Marbles should be returned to Athens because they were "stolen", because the Athenians themselves stole the money to produce them.

    ________________________________________________________________

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    ptolemy1989's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Achilles and Patroclus

    OK i know i haven't made the best threads i am very new here. i just thought it was a recouping topic that i hear a lot of people are talking about, a lot of the time on you tube not as much as the Macedonia's naming dispute but is still a bit topic if you think this thread is inappropriate then feel free to delete it
    Last edited by ptolemy1989; May 22, 2009 at 09:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Achilles and Patroclus

    Quote Originally Posted by ptolemy1989 View Post
    OK i know i haven't made the best threads i am very new here. i just thought it was a recouping topic that i hear a lot of people are talking about, a lot of the time on you tube not as much as the Macedonia's naming dispute but is still a bit topic if you think this thread is inappropriate then feel free to delete it
    Many answers about your thoughts of Achilles and Patroklos you find HERE

    If you have questions we are here to discuss them...and don't bring me quotes from wiki....try to find more reliable sources to read....

    also...read this...

    Wikipedia Fallacies

    Athenean Pederasty
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The first contradiction one comes accross when reading this entry in wiki is that the common and widespread practice of “pederasty” as presented in the entry titled “Homosexuality in ancient Greece” became an “upper class” custom only to again change and just 2 lines down become “encouraged by the Athenean society” .
    Anyway, I guess they’ll eventually make up their minds.
    We then hear the outrageous claim that it was Solon hat founded the tradition of homosexual relations among Athenean men and youth (still not clarified if this took place among the “upper class” or was a “widespread” custom). A Solon who as we know was the very founder of the laws which Aeschines cites in his Against Timarchus” (see related article pertaining to Laws against homo and pederastic relations. In their attempt to support this claim, the authors of this entry totally distort the text of Athenaeus of Naucratis who’s Deipnosophists they claim to quote. The distorted text appear as “boy in the lovely flower of youth, desiring his thighs and sweet mouth.” when in reality the text states:
    Deipnosophists 13.79.5
    Original:
    “μηρών ίμείρων και γλυκερού στοματός”
    Translation:
    “longing for thighs and sweet mouth”
    The authors then try to attribute homosexual relations to Harmodios and Aristogeiton, to whom they first attribute the title of “lovers” prior to any reference to the significance of their actions, conveniently taking Thucydides’ account instead of reading what the numerous ancient texts and the Cambridge Ancient History (Cabridge University Press 2000, page 299) which clearly states that “the motive for the murder was political“..
    But even so, how could anyone misunderstand what Plato tells us in his Symposium ?
    Plato Symposium 182c:
    Original:
    [182ξ] φιλοσοφία καὶ ἡ φιλογυμναστία: οὐ γὰρ οἶμαι συμφέρει τοῖς ἄρχουσι φρονήματα μεγάλα ἐγγίγνεσθαι τῶν ἀρχομένων, οὐδὲ φιλίας ἰσχυρὰς καὶ κοινωνίας, ὃ δὴ μάλιστα φιλεῖ τά τε ἄλλα πάντα καὶ ὁ ἔρως ἐμποιεῖν. ἔργῳ δὲ τοῦτο ἔμαθον καὶ οἱ ἐνθάδε τύραννοι: ὁ γὰρ Ἀριστογείτονος ἔρως καὶ ἡ Ἁρμοδίου φιλία βέβαιος γενομένη κατέλυσεν αὐτῶν τὴν ἀρχήν.
    Translation:
    [182c] and all training in philosophy and sports, to be disgraceful, because of their despotic government; since, I presume, it is not to the interest of their princes to have lofty notions engendered in their subjects, or any strong friendships and communions; all of which Love is pre-eminently apt to create. It is a lesson that our despots learnt by experience; for Aristogeiton’s love and Harmodius’s friendship grew to be so steadfast that it wrecked their power.
    Why would they misinterpret the word friendship, why would they ignore the true meaning of pederasty which Plato describes (181c) as of the “heavenly Aphrodite”, which has nothing to do with wantonness , why ignore the words of Plato in his Hipparchus, who although provides a questionable account on his death, tells us exactly what their relationship was (229c) Harmodius “πεπαιδεῦσθαι ὑπ᾽ ἐκείνου” (was educated by him [Aristogeiton]), why ignore the numerous accounts which speak of their contribution to the fall of tyrany but choose to promote the context of a single text and finally why not see how their relationship was used in real life and not some philosophic discussion which is by no means an accurate source for deducting conclusions upon everyday realities ?
    Aeschines, Against Timarchus 140
    Original:
    Ἁρμόδιον καὶ Ἀριστογείτονα, ὁ σώφρων καὶ ἔννομος, εἴτε ἔρωτα εἴτε ὅντινα τρόπον χρὴ προσειπεῖν, τοιούτους ἐπαίδευσεν, ὥστε τοὺς ἐπαινοῦντας τὰ ἐκείνων ἔργα καταδεεστέρους δοκεῖν εἶναι ἐν τοῖς ἐγκωμίοις τῶν ἐκείνοις πεπραγμένων.
    Translation:
    Harmodius and Aristogeiton, men pre-eminent for their virtues, were so nurtured by that chaste and lawful love—or call it by some other name than love if you like—and so disciplined, that when we hear men praising what they did, we feel that words are inadequate to the eulogy of their deeds.
    We then move on to the claim of vase paintings suggesting the “dominant status of pederasty in Athenian social life”.. One can’t but wonder how on earth a total of some 30 vases (A.Georgiades “Debunking the Myth of Homosexuality in Ancient Greece”) which indeed do depict a homosexual scene and are presented by K.J.Dover, a Dover that is considered an authority in the field, can justify the outreageous claim of “dominant status”?


    Laws against homo and pederastic relations

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Here we will post a list of laws against homosexual and pederastic relations as recorded in the text of Aeschines known as Against Timarchus.
    But first lets add a little bit of info. We’re in the middle of the 4th cent. BC during which the 2nd Athenean Alliance is in a great crisis due to the continuous growing power of Philip. The Atheneans, are separated into two major groups, one lead by Demosthenes and Hyperides which considers Philip nothing more than a tyrranic conqueror which will enslave and alienate the Atheneans and the rest of the Hellenes from their democratic norms and a secondlead by Isocrates, Phokion and Aeschines which see him as the great hope to finally unite the Hellenes under one leader and destroy the Barbarian threat (see Persian empire). Under the circumstances one can understand that backstabing, accusations of treason, bribery..etc were common.
    In an attempt to present the agreement made by the Athenean ambassadors and Philip as void (since it desolved 2nd Athenean Alliance), Demosthenes’ “group” accused Aeschines of taking bribes from Philip. Aeschines’ prosecutor is Timarchus, a member of Demosthenes “group”. Aeschines, instead of trying to refute the accusations against him, takes a totally different turn and tries to totally avoid the trial by making reference to laws that existed since the time of Solon (7th cent. BC) and by doing so, literally deprived Timarchus of all his political rights.
    Laws:
    Aeschines, Against Timarchus 12
    Hellenic Original
    [Οἱ δὲ τῶν παίδων διδάσκαλοι ἀνοιγέτωσαν μὲν τὰ διδασκαλεῖα μὴ πρότερον ἡλίου ἀνιόντος, κλειέτωσαν δὲ πρὸ ἡλίου δύνοντος. καὶ μὴ ἐξέστω τοῖς ὑπὲρ τὴν τῶν παίδων ἡλικίαν οὖσιν εἰσιέναι τῶν παίδων ἔνδον ὄντων, ἐὰν μὴ υἱὸς διδασκάλου ἢ ἀδελφὸς ἢ θυγατρὸς ἀνήρ: ἐὰν δέ τις παρὰ ταῦτ᾽ εἰσίῃ, θανάτῳ ζημιούσθω. καὶ οἱ γυμνασιάρχαι τοῖς Ἑρμαίοις μὴ εἄτωσαν συγκαθιέναι μηδένα τῶν ἐν ἡλικίᾳ τρόπῳ μηδενί: ἐὰν δὲ ἐπιτρέπῃ καὶ μὴ ἐξείργῃ τοῦ γυμνασίου, ἔνοχος ἔστω ὁ γυμνασιάρχης τῷ τῆς ἐλευθέρων φθορᾶς νόμῳ. οἱ δὲ χορηγοὶ οἱ καθιστάμενοι ὑπὸ τοῦ δήμου ἔστωσαν τὴν ἡλικίαν ὑπὲρ τετταράκοντα ἔτη
    Translation
    The teachers of the boys shall open the school-rooms not earlier than sunrise, and they shall close them before sunset. No person who is older than the boys shall be permitted to enter the room while they are there, unless he be a son of the teacher, a brother, or a daughter's husband. If any one enter in violation of this prohibition, he shall be punished with death. The superintendents of the gymnasia shall under no conditions allow any one who has reached the age of manhood to enter the contests of Hermes together with the boys. A gymnasiarch who does permit this and fails to keep such a person out of the gymnasium, shall be liable to the penalties prescribed for the seduction of free-born youth. Every choregus who is appointed by the people shall be more than forty years of age
    Aeschines, Against Timarchus 13
    Hellenic Original
    ἐάν τινα ἐκμισθώσῃ ἑταιρεῖν πατὴρ ἢ ἀδελφὸς ἢ θεῖος ἢ ἐπίτροπος ἢ ὅλως τῶν κυρίων τις, κατ᾽ αὐτοῦ μὲν τοῦ παιδὸς οὐκ ἐᾷ γραφὴν εἶναι, κατὰ δὲ τοῦ μισθώσαντος καὶ τοῦ μισθωσαμένου, τοῦ μὲν ὅτι ἐξεμίσθωσε, τοῦ δὲ ὅτι, φησίν, ἐμισθώσατο

    Translation
    if any boy is let out for hire as a prostitute, whether it be by father or brother or uncle or guardian, or by any one else who has control of him, prosecution is not to he against the boy himself, but against the man who let him out for hire and the man who hired him
    Aeschines, Against Timarchus 16
    Hellenic Original
    [Ἄν τις Ἀθηναίων έλεύθερον παῖδα ὑβρίσῃ, γραφέσθω ὁ κύριος τοῦ παιδὸς πρὸς τοὺς θεσμοθέτας, τίμημα ἐπιγραψάμενος. οὗ δ᾽ ἂν τὸ δικαστήριον καταψηφίσηται, παραδοθεὶς τοῖς ἕνδεκα τεθνάτω αὐθημερόν. ἐὰν δὲ εἰς ἀργύριον καταψηφισθῇ, ἀποτεισάτω ἐν ἕνδεκα ἡμέραις μετὰ τὴν δίκην, ἐὰν μὴ παραχρῆμα δύνηται ἀποτίνειν: ἕως δὲ τοῦ ἀποτεῖσαι εἱρχθήτω. ἔνοχοι δὲ ἔστασαν ταῖσδε ταῖς αἰτίαις καὶ οἱ εἰς τὰ οἰκετικὰ σώματα ἐξαμαρτάνοντες.]
    Translation
    If any Athenian shall outrage a free-born child, the parent or guardian of the child shall demand a specific penalty. If the court condemn the accused to death, he shall be delivered to the constables and be put to death the same day. If he be condemned to pay a fine, and be unable to pay the fine immediately, he must pay within eleven days after the trial, and he shall remain in prison until payment is made. The same action shall hold against those who abuse the persons of slaves.
    Aeschines, Against Timarchus 17
    Hellenic Original
    ἴσως ἂν οὖν τις θαυμάσειεν ἐξαίφνης ἀκούσας, τί δή ποτ᾽ ἐν τῷ νόμῳ τῷ τῆς ὕβρεως προσεγράφη τοῦτο τὸ ῥῆμα, τὸ τῶν δούλων. τοῦτο δὲ ἐὰν σκοπῆτε, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, εὑρήσετε ὅτι πάντων ἄριστα ἔχει: οὐ γὰρ ὑπὲρ τῶν οἰκετῶν ἐσπούδασεν ὁ νομοθέτης, ἀλλὰ βουλόμενος ὑμᾶς ἐθίσαι πολὺ ἀπέχειν τῆς τῶν ἐλευθέρων ὕβρεως, προσέγραψε μηδ᾽ εἰς τοὺς δούλους ὑβρίζειν. ὅλως δὲ ἐν δημοκρατίᾳ τὸν εἰς ὁντινοῦν ὑβριστήν, τοῦτον οὐκ ἐπιτήδειον ἡγήσατο εἶναι συμπολιτεύεσθαι.
    Translation
    Now perhaps some one, on first hearing this law, may wonder for what possible reason this word “slaves” was added in the law against outrage. But if you reflect on the matter, fellow citizens, you will find this to be the best provision of all. For it was not for the slaves that the lawgiver was concerned, but he wished to accustom you to keep a long distance away from the crime of outraging free men, and so he added the prohibition against the outraging even of slaves. In a word, he was convinced that in a democracy that man is unfit for citizenship who outrages any person whatsoever.
    Aeschines, Against Timarchus 21
    Hellenic Original
    Ἐάν τις Ἀθηναῖος ἑταιρήσῃ, μὴ ἐξέστω αὐτῷ τῶν ἐννέα ἀρχόντων γενέσθαι, μηδ᾽ ἱερωσύνην ἱερώσασθαι, μηδὲ συνδικῆσαι τῷ δήμῳ, μηδὲ ἀρχὴν ἀρχέτω μηδεμίαν, μήτε ἔνδημον μήτε ὑπερόριον, μήτε κληρωτὴν μήτε χειροτονητήν, μηδ᾽ ἐπὶ κηρυκείαν ἀποστελλέσθω, μηδὲ γνώμην λεγέτω, μηδ᾽ εἰς τὰ δημοτελῆ ἱερὰ εἰσίτω, μηδ᾽ ἐν ταῖς κοιναῖς στεφανηφορίαις στεφανούσθω, μηδ᾽ ἐντὸς τῆς ἀγορᾶς τῶν περιρραντηρίων πορευέσθω. ἐὰν δέ τις παρὰ1 ταῦτα ποιῇ, καταγνωσθέντος αὐτοῦ ἑταιρεῖν, θανάτῳ ζημιούσθω
    Translation
    If any Athenian shall have prostituted his person, he shall not be permitted to become one of the nine archons, nor to discharge the office of priest, nor to act as an advocate for the state, nor shall he hold any office whatsoever, at home or abroad, whether filled by lot or by election; he shall not be sent as a herald; he shall not take part in debate, nor be present at public sacrifices; when the citizens are wearing garlands, he shall wear none; and he shall not enter within the limits of the place that has been purified for the assembling of the people. If any man who has been convicted of prostitution act contrary to these prohibitions, he shall be put to death.
    Here we must note a mistake in the translation.
    While the translation speaks of “prostituting his person” the original makes no reference what so ever to “prostitution” but clearly states ἑταιρήσῃ .
    According to the comprehensive “Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon” ἑταιρήσῃ = unchastity.
    The difference is indicated further in the text:
    Aeschines, Against Timarchus 29
    Hellenic Original
    φησί, “μὴ ἐστρατευμένος, ὅσαι ἂν αὐτῷ προσταχθῶσιν, ἢ τὴν ἀσπίδα ἀποβεβληκώς,” δίκαια λέγων. τί δή ποτε; ἄνθρωπε, τῇ πόλει, ὑπὲρ ἧς τὰ ὅπλα μὴ τίθεσαι ἢ διὰ δειλίαν μὴ δυνατὸς εἶ ἐπαμῦναι, μηδὲ συμβουλεύειν βουλεύειν ἀξίου. τρίτον τίσι διαλέγεται; “ἢ πεπορνευμένος,”φησίν, “ἢ ἡταιρηκώς:” τὸν γὰρ τὸ σῶμα τὸ ἑαυτοῦ ἐφ᾽ ὕβρει πεπρακότα, καὶ τὰ κοινὰ τῆς πόλεως ῥᾳδίως ἡγήσατο ἀποδώσεσθαι. τέταρτον τίσι διαλέγεται
    Translation
    “Or the man who has failed to perform all the military service demanded of him, or who has thrown away his shield.” And he is right. Why? Man, if you fail to take up arms in behalf of the state, or if you are such a coward that you are unable to defend her, you must not claim the right to advise her, either. Whom does he specify in the third place? “Or the man,” he says, “who has debauched or prostituted himself.” For the man who has made traffic of the shame of his own body, he thought would be ready to sell the common interests of the city also. But whom does he specify in the fourth place?
    The use of both terms πεπορνευμένος (according to Liddle & Scott “to prostitue” and ἡταιρηκώς ( according to Liddle & Scott = to keep company) clearly indicates that the laws did NOT apply ONLY to those that had prostituted themselves, but also to those that had formed homosexual relations.
    Aeschines, Against Timarchus 46
    Hellenic Original
    ἐὰν μὲν οὖν ἐθελήσῃ ὁ Μισγόλας δεῦρο παρελθὼν τἀληθῆ μαρτυρεῖν, τὰ δίκαια ποιήσει: ἐὰν δὲ προαιρῆται ἐκκλητευθῆναι μᾶλλον ἢ τἀληθῆ μαρτυρεῖν, ὑμεῖς τὸ ὅλον πρᾶγμα συνίδετε. εἰ γὰρ ὁ μὲν πράξας αἰσχυνεῖται καὶ προαιρήσεται χιλίας μᾶλλον δραχμὰς ἀποτεῖσαι τῷ δημοσίῳ, ὥστε μὴ δεῖξαι τὸ πρόσωπον τὸ ἑαυτοῦ ὑμῖν, ὁ δὲ πεπονθὼς δημηγορήσει, σοφὸς ὁ νομοθέτης ὁ τοὺς οὕτω βδελυροὺς ἐξείργων ἀπὸ τοῦ βήματος.
    Translation
    If therefore Misgolas is willing to come forward here and testify to the truth, he will be doing what is right; but if he prefers to refuse the summons rather than testify to the truth, the whole business will be made clear to you. For if the man who did the thing is going to be ashamed of it and choose to pay a thousand drachmas into the treasury rather than show his face before you, while the man to whom it has been done is to be a speaker in your assembly, then wise indeed was the lawgiver who excluded such disgusting creatures from the platform.
    We move on to Misgolas, Timarchus’ ‘lover’s’ testimony, (who makes no reference to payment) the accounts of others and the conclusion that he not only had homosexual relations but also prosituted himself.
    Aeschines, Against Timarchus 52
    Hellenic Original
    ἐὰν δ᾽ ὑμᾶς ἀναμνήσας ἐπιδείξω, ὑπερβαίνων τούσδε τοὺς ἀγρίους, Κηδωνίδην καὶ Αὐτοκλείδην καὶ Θέρσανδρον, αὐτοὺς δὲ λέγων ὧν ἐν ταῖς οἰκίαις ἀνειλημμένος γέγονε, μὴ μόνον παρὰ τῷ Μισγόλᾳ μεμισθαρνηκότα αὐτὸν ἐπὶ τῷ σώματι, ἀλλὰ καὶ παρ᾽ ἑτέρῳ καὶ πάλιν παρ᾽ ἄλλῷ, καὶ παρὰ τούτου ὡς ἕτερον ἐληλυθότα, οὐκέτι δήπου φανεῖται μόνον ἡταιρηκώς, ἀλλὰ (μὰ τὸν Διόνυσον οὐκ οἶδ᾽ ὅπως δυνήσομαι περιπλέκειν ὅλην τὴν ἡμέραν) καὶ πεπορνευμένος: ὁ γὰρ εἰκῇ τοῦτο καὶ πρὸς πολλοὺς πράττων καὶ μισθοῦ, αὐτῷ μοι δοκεῖ τούτῳ ἔνοχος εἶναι.
    Translation
    But if, saying nothing about these bestial fellows, Cedonides, Autocleides, and Thersandrus, and simply telling the names of those in whose houses he has been an inmate, I refresh your memories and show that he is guilty of selling his person not only in Misgolas’ house, but in the house of another man also, and again of another, and that from this last he went to still another, surely you will no longer look upon him as one who has merely been a kept man, but—by Dionysus, I don’t know how I can keep glossing the thing over all day long—as a common prostitute. For the man who follows these practices recklessly and with many men and for pay seems to me to be chargeable with precisely this.
    While the translation “kept man” may be misleading, the definition provided by the Liddle and Scott provides little doubt to what is actually written.
    Finally a quote that actually depicts what they believed about such relations:
    Aeschines, Against Timarchus 185
    Hellenic Original
    ἔπειθ᾽ οἱ μὲν πατέρες ὑμῶν οὕτω περὶ τῶν αἰσχρῶν καὶ καλῶν διεγίγνωσκον, ὑμεῖς δὲ Τίμαρχον τὸν τοῖς αἰσχίστοις ἐπιτηδεύμασιν ἔνοχον ἀφήσετε; τὸν ἄνδρα μὲν καὶ ἄρρενα τὸ σῶμα, γυναικεῖα δὲ ἁμαρτήματα ἡμαρτηκότα; τίς οὖν ὑμῶν γυναῖκα λαβὼν ἀδικοῦσαν τιμωρήσεται; ἢ τίς οὐκ ἀπαίδευτος εἶναι δόξει τῇ μὲν κατὰ φύσιν ἁμαρτανούσῃ χαλεπαίνων, τῷ δὲ παρὰ φύσιν ἑαυτὸν ὑβρίσαντι συμβούλῳ χρώμενος;
    Translation
    Such, then, was the judgment of your fathers concerning things shameful and things honorable; and shall their sons let Timarchus go free, a man chargeable with the most shameful practices, a creature with the body of a man defiled with the sins of a woman? In that case, who of you will punish a woman if he finds her in wrong doing? Or what man will not be regarded as lacking intelligence who is angry with her who errs by an impulse of nature, while he treats as adviser the man who in despite of nature has sinned against his own body?
    The phrase παρὰ φύσιν ἑαυτὸν ὑβρίσαντι (to wax wanton himself against nature) actually says it all.


    Now...if you consider how many sites,blogs,universities etc has wikipedia as theirs source make the count of fallacies....and make the count of people-who-don't-know-the-truth.....
    Last edited by Starlightman; May 23, 2009 at 05:21 PM.

    ________Team Member of CBURIGreat Conflicts 872-1071 ________
    Dominion of the Sword
    IGreece Playable & Improvement mod BETA
    _________ Roman Warship 50 B.C 1/250 scaleIAthenian Trireme _________

    __________under the patronage of noble Okmin-san ___________








    [COLOR=Red]
    "You can fool all of the people some of the time
    You can fool some of the people all of the time
    But you can't fool all of the people all of the time. "
    Abraham Lincoln, 1864

    "There are three truths: my truth, your truth and the truth."
    Chinese Proverb

    Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    It's relevent if you argue the Elgin Marbles should be returned to Athens because they were "stolen", because the Athenians themselves stole the money to produce them.

    ________________________________________________________________

  7. #7
    ptolemy1989's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Achilles and Patroclus

    i really need to lay off Wikipedia anyway ill try to be more on topic on future threads. thanks for the articles by the way

  8. #8

    Default Re: Achilles and Patroclus

    That Wikipedia discussion and these laws are very enlightening, but I'm not entirely convinced. It seems to me that all these laws have to do with male prostitution and rape, and not with consensual homosexual relations. You mentioned that part of Plato's Symposium which talks about Armodios and Aristogeiton, and about Heavenly Aphrodite (which was, in truth, the goddess or romantic and not sexual love), but what about the parts of that book where Alcibiades describes how he tried to seduce Socrates, eventually managing to get him to sleep in the same bed as him but failing to arouse any sexual desire in him? Socrates was the exception in that book, being of a lofty nature and not caring for such pleasures of the flesh, and Plato himself, through him, was defining the ideal, not what actually happened in Athens on a daily basis.



  9. #9
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    Default Re: Achilles and Patroclus

    Quote Originally Posted by Seleucos of Olympia View Post
    That Wikipedia discussion and these laws are very enlightening, but I'm not entirely convinced.
    You are free to believe everything you want my friend...

    It seems to me that all these laws have to do with male prostitution and rape, and not with consensual homosexual relations.
    please read again more carefully...

    You mentioned that part of Plato's Symposium which talks about Armodios and Aristogeiton, and about Heavenly Aphrodite (which was, in truth, the goddess or romantic and not sexual love), but what about the parts of that book where Alcibiades describes how he tried to seduce Socrates, eventually managing to get him to sleep in the same bed as him but failing to arouse any sexual desire in him?
    please show us the text who mentioned this....

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    Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    It's relevent if you argue the Elgin Marbles should be returned to Athens because they were "stolen", because the Athenians themselves stole the money to produce them.

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  10. #10

    Default Re: Achilles and Patroclus

    Alcibiades starts telling the story of how he tried to get Socrates to be his lover at around 216d - how he planned to always be alone with him, started going to the gymnasium with him and later invited him for dinner, which Socrates initially refused, but eventually gave in. The second time they had dinner together, Alcibiades kept him up talking until it was late, so he insisted that he sleep at his house. They slept in separate beds, but at some point Alcibiades went over and told him that he wanted him to become his lover, to which Socrates was rather uninterested. Afterwards, in 219b (translation from the Perseus digital library - I've read it in greek and it's not different in any way I can see):

    “Well, after I had exchanged these words with him and, as it were, let fly my shafts, I fancied he felt the wound: so up I got, and without suffering the man to say a word more I wrapped my own coat about him--it was winter-time; drew myself under his cloak, so wound my arms about this truly spiritual and miraculous creature; and lay thus all the night long. Here too, Socrates, you are unable to give me the lie. When I had done all this, he showed such superiority and contempt, laughing my youthful charms to scorn, and flouting the very thing on which I prided myself, gentlemen of the jury--for you are here to try Socrates for his lofty disdain: you may be sure, by gods--and goddesses--that when I arose I had in no more particular sense slept a night with Socrates than if it had been with my father or my elder brother.

    “After that, you can imagine what a state of mind I was in, feeling myself affronted, yet marvelling at the sobriety and integrity of his nature: for I had lighted on a man such as I never would have dreamt of meeting--so sensible and so resolute."


    I advise you to read the whole Symposium (if you haven't already) to establish the general context, of course. I have no particular feelings for or against homosexuality (I'm not gay myself) but I am an avid reader of ancient Greek texts, and it seems to me that "paiderastia" was as sexual in nature back then as we understand it today (although it usually involved adolescent boys, and not young ones). That is nowhere more explicitly seen than in Loggos' romance "Daphnis and Chloe", where Daphnis, a young shepherd in love with Chloe, is at one point harassed by a paederast from the city who tries to get him to have sex with him - something that Daphnis considers unnatural and manages to avoid. Also, in Theocritus' Idylls, the shepherds in some of the poems recount their love interests, which include women and men. I don't know if you can find the Idylls on the internet, but I could transcribe some examples here if you are interested.
    Last edited by Seleucos of Olympia; May 24, 2009 at 06:32 PM.



  11. #11

    Default Re: Achilles and Patroclus

    I thought that it was the Aeschylus play 'Myrmidons' (extant only in fragments) that is the first text that we know of to have explicitly stated that Achilles and Patroclus were lovers: Homer doesn't say that they were, although some believe that he hints it.

    The real point though is that one ought not to assume that 5th century Athenian attitudes towards pederasty are any evidence of Homer's 7th or 8th century attitudes towards homosexuality, which in turn are no real evidence of 12th/13th late Mycenaean views the relationship between Achilles and his cousin, if they ever existed. The Athenians (in my view) presumed that their heroes thought they same as they did, just as most people I've seen on this forum assume that their Greek heroes have modern attitudes, which I find very amusing.

    As far as the true nature of the eromenos/erastes relationship, it is already clear in this thread that objective, non-biased discussion of this issue is very difficult. I'd just say that it seems clear to me that many Greek texts take pederasty/homosexual relationships for granted, especially in a military context. Plutarch's Life of Pelopidas talks about the Theban Sacred Band in this way, and Plutarch also quotes Phillip II of Macedon in a positive context: but the point is that he accepts homosexual bonds as an established and unremarkable fact. In a sense, so does Aeschines: his apparent disapproval notwithstanding. And though the Symposium has already been quoted, its most famous passage has not:

    And if there were only some way of contriving that a state or an army should be made up of lovers and their loves, they would be the very best governors of their own city, abstaining from all dishonour, and emulating one another in honour; and when fighting at each other's side, although a mere handful, they would overcome the world. For what lover would not choose rather to be seen by all mankind than by his beloved, either when abandoning his post or throwing away his arms? He would be ready to die a thousand deaths rather than endure this. Or who would desert his beloved or fail him in the hour of danger?
    Phaedrus, Symposium 178e
    Last edited by oudysseos; May 25, 2009 at 06:03 AM.
    οἵη περ φύλλων γενεὴ τοίη δὲ καὶ ἀνδρῶν.
    Even as are the generations of leaves, such are the lives of men.
    Glaucus, son of Hippolochus, Illiad, 6.146



  12. #12
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    Default Re: Achilles and Patroclus

    Thread close

    All answers given here...

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=256583&page=5

    ________Team Member of CBURIGreat Conflicts 872-1071 ________
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    _________ Roman Warship 50 B.C 1/250 scaleIAthenian Trireme _________

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    [COLOR=Red]
    "You can fool all of the people some of the time
    You can fool some of the people all of the time
    But you can't fool all of the people all of the time. "
    Abraham Lincoln, 1864

    "There are three truths: my truth, your truth and the truth."
    Chinese Proverb

    Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    It's relevent if you argue the Elgin Marbles should be returned to Athens because they were "stolen", because the Athenians themselves stole the money to produce them.

    ________________________________________________________________

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