Nirvana and the Brain

[Denny Crane!]

So recently on Shrink Rap Radios podcast I listened to a podcast called Nirvana and the Brain.

Shrink Rap Radio is a psychology podcast that features people, usually who are plugging a book or have recently come to the limelight for whatever reason and its an hour long podcast on whatever theory or ideas that they purport.

This episode discussed a woman, a neuroscientist, who experienced a stroke at 38. She was not a buddhist or a serious meditator as it happens. She experienced a non age related stroke that completely paralysed her brain on the left side. This is the side of the brain that is logical rational and home to self chatter which includes your ability to remember critical details of yourself and things relevant to your existance. Hypnosis and NLP talks a lot about this as does various areas of neuroscience since the 1970's and if you aren't familiar with it I'd look into it.

It was with particular fascination she was able to witness the degredation of her brain and her self as it shut down around her, eventually coming to the realisation that she was experiencing a stroke. What occurred after the fact, after the initial trauma had passed was a feeling of utter bliss. Connection to the universe and a complete absence of fear, stress and anxiety. It has left her a deeply spiritual person without allegiance to any particular deity.

Meditation students often suggest that they are trying to reduce self chatter, that they may actually be suppressing the left hemisphere of the brain and that this has immense benefits. NLP practitioners state that we are unconsious selves and that by interacting with our unconscious through meditation and hypnosis are able to effect change and reduce depression as well as more extraordinary effects far faster than insight methods common to CBT.

This is interesting to me as well as pointing at some deeper unknowable things which I'll not even begin to contemplate (since it could be an effect of euphoria if nothing else) that it is at last a possible explanation of what nibbana or enlightenment could be. The ability to create a state of being that helps reduce dominance of the left hemisphere of the brain or a synthesis between the two.

I think the more time goes on the more buddhism is being validated as more and more western psychologists start realising how beneficial mindfullness techniques are, meditative practice and general buddhist theory that address mental health.

I haven't tried to put together a decent article by the way just rambled. If you want a proper account go hunt out the podcast

[Ummon]

It may have been a OBE caused by the release of mediators like endorphins and DMT.

Yet: Buddhist stances are largely validated by neuroscience.

[Denny Crane!]

It may have been a OBE caused by the release of mediators like endorphins and DMT.

Yet: Buddhist stances are largely validated by neuroscience.

This wasn't a short lived feeling, that could be associated with a short term chemical infusion from the brain but a long term state of being associated with the stroke and only receded slowly as the recovery began, which involved operations and months of therapy.

It does seem to be entirely related to the fact that she temporarily (by that I mean months) lost the use of the left hemisphere of her brain.

[Ummon]

This wasn't a short lived feeling, that could be associated with a short term chemical infusion from the brain but a long term state of being associated with the stroke and only receded slowly as the recovery began, which involved operations and months of therapy.

It does seem to be entirely related to the fact that she temporarily (by that I mean months) lost the use of the left hemisphere of her brain.

Very likely a peculiar condition, because generally the opposite is true: negative emotions being more likely associated with the right emisphere. It is a complex matter, given that functions are not really localized, to tell what happens in a normal situation. On the other hand, the brain develops differently from person to person as well.

[Denny Crane!]

Very likely a peculiar condition, because generally the opposite is true: negative emotions being more likely associated with the right emisphere. It is a complex matter, given that functions are not really localized, to tell what happens in a normal situation. On the other hand, the brain develops differently from person to person as well.

You sure because it is self talk and anxiety which surely most be localised to the left frontal side? Anxiety being something caused by self talk and self representation of oneself in the future (or lack of)

Edit: Like Buddhism/psychology NLP is something which is evolutionary in nature. If it is missing things it will surely add them in since it is actually these days a collection of disciplines.

You know much of Milton Erickson? I wouldn't have considered that he was acting on the left hemisphere at all, quite the opposite actually.

[Ummon]

You sure because it is self talk and anxiety which surely most be localised to the left frontal side? Anxiety being something caused by self talk and self representation of oneself in the future (or lack of)

http://www.answers.com/topic/anosognosia

Anosognosia is relatively common following brain injury (e.g. 10%–18% in the case of hemiplegia/hemiparesis after stroke[1]), but can appear to occur in conjunction with virtually any neurological impairment. However, it is not related to global mental confusion (see delirium), cognitive flexibility, or other major intellectual disturbance. Anosognosia can be selective in that an affected person with multiple impairments may only seem unaware of one handicap, while appearing to be fully aware of any others. Those diagnosed with dementia of the Alzheimer's type often display this lack of awareness and insist that "There is nothing wrong with me!".

The condition does not seem to be directly related to sensory loss and is thought to be caused by damage to higher level neurocognitive processes which are involved in integrating sensory information with processes which support spatial or bodily representations (including the somatosensory system). Anosognosia is thought to be related to unilateral neglect, a condition often found after damage to the non-dominant (usually the right[2]) hemisphere of the cerebral cortex in which sufferers seem unable to attend to, or sometimes comprehend, anything on a certain side of their body[3] (usually the left).

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14727844

Controversy exists about whether depression following stroke represents a biologically mediated change or a psychological reaction to the deficits. We present a patient with an acute isolated personality change and depression following a lacunar infarct of the left internal capsule, who was unaware of his affective change. His anosognosia for the depression, which was abrupt and not accompanied by cognitive impairments, suggests that post stroke depression, at least in this case, is better explained by a biological than a psychological model.

Generally: anosognosia + paralysis + good mood -> right lesion, anosognosia + depression (rare) -> left lesion.

The humanistic take on anxiety (and rumination) is valid but somehow partial. You can foretell the future in images as well as with words.

You know much of Milton Erickson? I wouldn't have considered that he was acting on the left hemisphere at all, quite the opposite actually.

Everything in the brain is interconnected. But if you use two hands you pick up objects more easily than with one.

[S.L.I.G]

It may have been a OBE caused by the release of mediators like endorphins and DMT.

Yet: Buddhist stances are largely validated by neuroscience.

I've talked to a lot of Buddhists, and they all say that prayer gives largely the same feeling as meditation. I have also prayed and meditated quite a few times, and they are not much different. Its just an attempt to focus the mind and awaken yourself as much as possible. Both do it, through different means, if the mindset is right.

As for Nirvana, it it obviously not achieved through a fluke in health. She didn't reach a state of being where pain is gone, suffering is gone, etc- she was basically just retarded to the extent where it fell into her lap.

Edit: I do find this interesting, and have read up on similar cases to this in the past. I'm not sure what it means theologically, but I do know that whatever state of mindset she is in, it is definitely not Nirvana, and it definitely does not "validate" the Buddhist notion of it, either.

[Kiljan Arslan]

interesting piece seneca. BTW who calls themselves shrink rap?

[Denny Crane!]

interesting piece seneca. BTW who calls themselves shrink rap?

I imagine its an allusion to the fact that is about psychology (shrinks) rap (talking about stuff) radio (podcasts)

As an aside for everyone:

I kind of left buddhism alone since I could never get into meditation. I started looking into NeuroLinguisticPsychology and was immediately struck by how many similarities there were between NLP, hypnosis and Buddhism.

With my recent exploration into CBT theory and the various practitioners who are venturing into Buddhism it made me consider that there must be a perfect way of working the mind, healing the mind and operating with one (not for everyone obviously) which I guess is kind of the theory of both NLP and buddhism. Finding whatever works best. If space time can dream of a Unified Theory why can't psychology?

So I find stuff like this pretty good. Its a worthwhile hour, as is the video on TED.TV I'll hunt out a link if anyone wants it.

[Ummon]

NLP will never get as deep as required to reach a complete mastery of your mind. Of course others may disagree, namely Taiji. But it's exactly because it deals only with the left-hemisphere (in normal cases) linguistic function that it can't unify the mind as one entire whole. NLPers tend to pillage Jungian psychology for that purpose, as well.

[Denny Crane!]

Anosognosia doesn't really apply as she was wholly aware of her incapacity sorry if I didn't make that clear. Her recovery was a choice made of free will not of ignorance.

My comments towards Milton were that he was a psychotherapist who used hypnosis to interact with the right hemisphere rather than trying reason or insight and was one of NLP's main influences. They have concerned themselves with most aspects of therapy from Milton to Gestalt and many others meaning that they are aiming for a comprehensive look at the best of all therapies and trying a reductionist model of therapy to which they have had a fair bit of success but as theories or sciences go it is of course very new.

[Ummon]

Anosognosia doesn't really apply as she was wholly aware of her incapacity sorry if I didn't make that clear. Her recovery was a choice made of free will not of ignorance.

The relevant part is the second article: it is an example of a series of situations where depression follows from left emisphere injury (inactivation of left emisphere structures due to injury).

I address you here: http://psychology.rutgers.edu/~kharb...ions%20IIb.ppt

Check slide number 13 in particular. Of course, the dominant hand matters.

My comments towards Milton were that he was a psychotherapist who used hypnosis to interact with the right hemisphere rather than trying reason or insight and was one of NLP's main influences. They have concerned themselves with most aspects of therapy from Milton to Gestalt and many others meaning that they are aiming for a comprehensive look at the best of all therapies and trying a reductionist model of therapy to which they have had a fair bit of success but as theories or sciences go it is of course very new.

And I replied that influences can be exerted directly and indirectly. I know who Erikson is, obviously.

Actually if you think about it in an art/logic sense hypnosis requires both hemispheres, poetry that does stuff.

Poetry comes from poiéo which means "to do", "to make", therefore poetry by definition is about doing stuff.

As for language and self-hypnosis, really it's not important - even other-hypnosis doesn't require anything to be said as long as the other person knows how to get into the trance they want. You can drill going into a trance and you'll get better at it. Maybe you'll talk to yourself to remember the steps at first but eventually you will do it automatically, you just have to want it. Your senses are what you can't do without in self-hypnosis, language is no more important than it is for any other kind of meditator.

In the case of self-hypnosis. I would though contend that when your routine has become automatic and passed into procedural memory, it is still based on a sequence which arose as linguistic, and as such is still anchored with a sequential thought-structure. Sensation is excellent, but it's not thought, intuition or feeling. An amalgamated mind arises from mastery of language and thought, mastery of perception and physical motion, mastery of emotion, will and feeling, and mastery of pattern recognition, and prediction of trends. Then there is the fifth (transcendent) function resulting as a product of the others.

So a meditator is often told very little about how to get in the right trance fast but the NLPer gets to master that one pretty quick. Learn NLP and then learn meditation, then see how much new age ass you kick

I am not into New Age at all. New Age is an epiphenomenon of the mind, as such it is worth understanding. But the underlying structure is much more interesting.

Nirvana is a state of mind where you are at eternal peace, not conflicted by your own negative emotions, your own state of being; enlightenment [and then the obvious, breaking the cycle of constant rebirth, unless you follow Mahayana Buddhism, in which case you can become a Bodhisattvas, and help others achieve Nirvana]. Existing with such a mentality successfully requires a different brain chemistry than the average person, but Nirvana is achieved through learning and meditation, not through unfortunate alements of the body. She became spiritual through the ordeal, but had she reached true Nirvana, it would of lasted. It is not a fleeting kind of thing.

Nirvana doesn't arise from the material brain.

I've talked to a lot of Buddhists, and they all say that prayer gives largely the same feeling as meditation. I have also prayed and meditated quite a few times, and they are not much different. Its just an attempt to focus the mind and awaken yourself as much as possible. Both do it, through different means, if the mindset is right.

As for Nirvana, it it obviously not achieved through a fluke in health. She didn't reach a state of being where pain is gone, suffering is gone, etc- she was basically just retarded to the extent where it fell into her lap.

Edit: I do find this interesting, and have read up on similar cases to this in the past. I'm not sure what it means theologically, but I do know that whatever state of mindset she is in, it is definitely not Nirvana, and it definitely does not "validate" the Buddhist notion of it, either.

I don't think I have made my stance clear with my post, judging from your reply. There is no correlation between that person's state and Nirvana, unless perchance through the abolishing of conscious interferences with some underlying mental processes, but science validates Buddhist stances on other matters.

Prayer is not like meditation. Meditation in Buddhism is about empty awareness, meditation in Christianity about self-aware awareness, prayer is about concentration on something (which is required for both).

[Taiji]

Poetry comes from poiéo which means "to do", "to make", therefore poetry by definition is about doing stuff.

'By definition' and 'by etymology' are not the same thing, but that's beside the point that it's a right brain activity

[Chaigidel]

I have attained a kind of constant bliss as well, perhaps I had a stroke ( seems reasonable)

fascinating though, I do love the intricacy of our flesh.

[Arch-hereticK]

Sometimes when I stand up really fast I get dizzy and one time my legs went numb and I fell.
Is that like what you guys are talking about?

[Denny Crane!]

Since you are so sure of it then perhaps you could explain what nirvana is? To dismiss nibanna so easily as something it isn't you must have an idea of what it is?

Bearing in mind she cross referenced her experience with buddhists and then drew inferences, not before but after. If nirvana is actually a real thing then it must have underlying physical causes and changes unless you are a dualist. If that is the case it certainly isn't implausible to suggest that it could have something to do with interacting with your brain through meditative practice. Certainly my own reading and recent activity in both buddhism and other practices correspond with this.

[S.L.I.G]

Since you are so sure of it then perhaps you could explain what nirvana is? To dismiss nibanna so easily as something it isn't you must have an idea of what it is?

Bearing in mind she cross referenced her experience with buddhists and then drew inferences, not before but after. If nirvana is actually a real thing then it must have underlying physical causes and changes unless you are a dualist. If that is the case it certainly isn't implausible to suggest that it could have something to do with interacting with your brain through meditative practice. Certainly my own reading and recent activity in both buddhism and other practices correspond with this.

Nirvana is a state of mind where you are at eternal peace, not conflicted by your own negative emotions, your own state of being; enlightenment [and then the obvious, breaking the cycle of constant rebirth, unless you follow Mahayana Buddhism, in which case you can become a Bodhisattvas, and help others achieve Nirvana]. Existing with such a mentality successfully requires a different brain chemistry than the average person, but Nirvana is achieved through learning and meditation, not through unfortunate alements of the body. She became spiritual through the ordeal, but had she reached true Nirvana, it would of lasted. It is not a fleeting kind of thing.

[Denny Crane!]

Nirvana is a state of mind where you are at eternal peace, not conflicted by your own negative emotions, your own state of being; enlightenment [and then the obvious, breaking the cycle of constant rebirth, unless you follow Mahayana Buddhism, in which case you can become a Bodhisattvas, and help others achieve Nirvana]. Existing with such a mentality successfully requires a different brain chemistry than the average person, but Nirvana is achieved through learning and meditation, not through unfortunate alements of the body. She became spiritual through the ordeal, but had she reached true Nirvana, it would of lasted. It is not a fleeting kind of thing.

Rebirth to my mind is the constant rebirth of conciousness from one moment to the next, I view the cycle of rebirth from life to life as being a hindu concept. As the Buddha himself stated don't believe anything without evidence that you can't test.

Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true. Guatama Buddha.

Of course each culture that absorbs buddhism and even the original pali canon and others absorb their own mysticism into it but it is not nor ever was meant to be dogmatic and was I believe one of the first things destined to become an evolutionary science of the mind.

Your idea of nirvana seems to be one rooted in mysticism which is all well and good but provides no kind of clue as to what actually happens but exists in the same realm as heaven, an end to rebirths which is an untestable concept and an unknowable concept leaving Nibbana to the realms of the unknowable - to be more precise you have no idea or theory what nibbana could be like. What it is like experentially.

What this woman describes is something that long time students of meditative and buddhist practice also claim to experience, that they are discussing similar things and therefore attainable goals and adds some kind of anecdotal evidence to the idea of an ultimate goal of buddhism that can be added to the pile of already qualitative evidence that is amounting to positive elements of buddhist practice.

[S.L.I.G]

Rebirth to my mind is the constant rebirth of conciousness from one moment to the next, I view the cycle of rebirth from life to life as being a hindu concept. As the Buddha himself stated don't believe anything without evidence that you can't test.

Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true. Guatama Buddha.

Of course each culture that absorbs buddhism and even the original pali canon and others absorb their own mysticism into it but it is not nor ever was meant to be dogmatic and was I believe one of the first things destined to become an evolutionary science of the mind.

Your idea of nirvana seems to be one rooted in mysticism which is all well and good but provides no kind of clue as to what actually happens but exists in the same realm as heaven, an end to rebirths which is an untestable concept and an unknowable concept leaving Nibbana to the realms of the unknowable - to be more precise you have no idea or theory what nibbana could be like. What it is like experentially.

What this woman describes is something that long time students of meditative and buddhist practice also claim to experience, that they are discussing similar things and therefore attainable goals and adds some kind of anecdotal evidence to the idea of an ultimate goal of buddhism that can be added to the pile of already qualitative evidence that is amounting to positive elements of buddhist practice.

I don't really have an idea of Nirvana, I'm not Buddhist. I've simply studied Buddhism and talked to Buddhists, Buddhists monks, and am telling you what the answer I got the majority of the time. I can only discuss what my knowledge permits me to do, not my own personal views. Obviously in any religion theres contention. Most Buddhists told me the difference between the Hindu cycle of endless rebirth, and Buddhist cycle was anicca. They said there is no indestructible immutable soul like Hinduism puts it, but one that is always changing. One metaphor I got was fire lighting one candle to the next. The fire [soul] is still the fire from one candle to the next, but its changed. Anyways, any kind of discussion on the relevance of Nirvana towards death, is besides my point.

The point of post was to discuss living Nirvana. Buddhists sects disagree on the exact route to Nirvana, but the general idea is that it is always a journey and a struggle. It is a means to improve yourself, reach enlightenment and greater understanding. If, there were people commonly accepted to have reached a state of Nirvana alive today [and I'm sure there is], it is equally possible to study the way their brain works, the way they perceive the world, and come to an understanding of the Buddhist term of Nirvana, and what it means to Science. I do not think however, that you can compare the path to Nirvana and eventual culmination of that journey, to the temporary after effects of a stroke. Even if there is a comparable result in terms of physiology, I am tentative to endorse the use of the word Nirvana to describe her past state, simply because of the philosophical and religious connotations that the term has.

---------
Are you a Buddhist Seneca? If so, what sect?

[Djûn]

Nirvana is a state of mind where you are at eternal peace, not conflicted by your own negative emotions, your own state of being; enlightenment [and then the obvious, breaking the cycle of constant rebirth, unless you follow Mahayana Buddhism, in which case you can become a Bodhisattvas, and help others achieve Nirvana].

This isn't strictly true, though I am sure you are well aware of the doctrines of Mahayana Buddhism I feel I should elaborate just for the sake of completion In Mahayana Buddhism you become a Bodhisattva by approaching Nibbana and then refusing to enter it - this is the basis of the Bodhisattva vows to not obtain enlightenment until all beings have done so. Once you have attained Nibbana, you are referred to as a Buddha.

Existing with such a mentality successfully requires a different brain chemistry than the average person, but Nirvana is achieved through learning and meditation, not through unfortunate alements of the body. She became spiritual through the ordeal, but had she reached true Nirvana, it would of lasted. It is not a fleeting kind of thing.

It is difficult to say what exactly is Nibbana. There have been many attempts to give an accurate depiction of what it is, but I can only guess that the feeling in indescribable. Once the Buddha Gotama had attained his Nibbana, he sat under the Bodhi tree for days on end revelling in the bliss he felt from this achievement. It took him many days before he was convinced to go and preach what he had learned. Whether the woman in question has indeed attained Nibbana not through meditation, however, is almost impossible to say. I, having not spoken to her, would not know what she felt nor what she now knows. What I can say, however, is that it would appear that according to the Buddha, Nibbana is found once one fully realises Samsara.