Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 34

Thread: It's all in the mind

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default It's all in the mind

    Something I found on NPR.

    According to polls, there's a 50-50 chance you have had at least one spiritual experience — an overpowering feeling that you've touched God, or another dimension of reality. So, have you ever wondered whether those encounters actually happened — or whether they were all in your head? Scientists say the answer might be both.
    If you're looking for evidence that religion is in your head, you need look no further than Jeff Schimmel. The 49-year-old Los Angeles writer was raised in a Conservative Jewish home. But he never bought into God — until after he was touched by a being outside of himself.
    "Yeah," Schimmel says, "I was touched by a surgeon."
    About a decade ago, Schimmel had a benign tumor removed from his left temporal lobe. The surgery was a snap. But soon after that — unknown to him — he began to suffer mini-seizures. He'd hear conversations in his head. Sometimes the people around him would look slightly unreal, as if they were animated.
    Then came the visions. He remembers twice, lying in bed, he looked up at the ceiling and saw a swirl of blue and gold and green colors that gradually settled into a shape. He couldn't figure out what it was.
    "And then, like a flash, it dawned on me: 'This is the Virgin Mary!' " he says. "And you know, it's funny. I laughed about it, because why would the Virgin Mary appear to me, a Jewish guy, lying in bed looking at the ceiling? She could do much better."
    Schimmel became fascinated with spirituality. He became more compassionate, less ambitious. And he wondered: Could his new outlook have to do with his brain? The next visit to his neurologist, he asked to see his most recent MRI.
    "My left temporal lobe looked completely different from the way it did before the surgery," he says.
    Gradually, it had become smaller, a different shape, covered with scar tissue. Those changes had sparked electrical firings in his brain. Schimmel's doctor told him he had developed temporal lobe epilepsy — a disease that has fascinated doctors for centuries.
    Did Paul Hear Jesus, Or Was It Hallucination?
    Some 2,500 years ago, notes Orrin Devinsky, who directs the epilepsy center at New York University, Hippocrates wrote one of the very first texts we have on epilepsy — and he named it "On the Sacred Disease."
    The disease was considered sacred because the ancients thought that sufferers were possessed by demons, or blessed with divine messages and visions. Devinsky says neurologists suspect some of the religious giants were epileptics themselves. Did Paul hear Jesus on the road to Damascus, or was he experiencing an auditory hallucination? What about Joseph Smith and the two angels? Muhammad? Joan of Arc? And what about Moses and that burning bush?
    "Assuming for now a more rational scientific view, he was having a visual hallucination and he heard God's voice," Devinsky observes.
    It could have been God; it could have been a seizure. But one thing Devinsky does believe is "whatever happened back there in Sinai, Moses' experience was mediated by his temporal lobe."
    The temporal lobes run along the sides of the brain, and deep within them is something called the limbic system. This system handles not just sound, smell and some vision but also memory and emotion.
    When people have a seizure in the temporal lobe, it's as if the normal emotions have an exclamation point after them, because so many nerve cells are firing in rhythm. People may hear snatches of music — drawn from their memory bank — and in rare cases, interpret it as music from heavenly spheres. They may see a glimpse of light and think it's an angel.
    "These patients give us clues as to what parts of the human brain are involved when all of us have a numinous experience," says Jeffrey Saver, a neurologist at UCLA.
    Saver says when people with no brain dysfunction have numinous, or spiritual, experiences, it's the same limbic system being activated — but with the volume turned down.
    The Quest For The 'Sensed Presence'
    This made me wonder: If God uses the temporal lobe, can neurologists make God come and go at will? Well, they can make ecstatic seizures go away with surgery or medication. But what about summoning God? Could a scientist manufacture a spiritual experience by manipulating my temporal lobes?
    That question led me to Michael Persinger's laboratory in Sudbury, Ontario. It's 6:30 on a Saturday evening, and Persinger, a neuroscientist at Laurentian University, has pasted eight electrodes on my scalp. He eases a modified motorcycle helmet with its own sensors onto my head. He calls it the "God helmet."
    The helmet is supposed to stimulate my right temporal lobe with weak magnetic fields, and create the illusion of God in my head. Well, not God exactly, but a sensed presence, a feeling that another being is in the room.
    When the helmet is in place, Persinger covers my eyes with goggles stuffed with napkins. I sink deeper into the threadbare, overstuffed chair, feeling like a teenager hanging out in someone's basement. He leaves me in the chamber and returns to the control room, where I've placed a recorder.
    For the next 30 minutes, I listen to magnetic fields shift over my skull. Occasionally, I report seeing images, or a dark forest. I've place a recorder in the control room, which is picking up both his comments and mine. At some point, I say, in an almost incomprehensibly muffled words, "There's kind of a roiling darkness, like a battle of darkness; it's off to my left."
    Persinger observes, excited: "You've just reported the actions on your left. And now you are beginning to experience — and my compliments to you — what is called 'The black,' or 'The dark of the dark.' "
    Of course, I couldn't hear him say that. He was talking into my recorder. At one point, Persinger predicts I am right on the verge of feeling the "Sensed Presence." But it never happens. There were several times when Persinger predicted I would see an image, or a face — and I did. To Persinger, this is evidence that God and all spiritual experience are a product of your brain.
    "What is the last illusion that we must overcome as a species?" he asks theatrically. "That illusion is that God is an absolute that exists independent of the human brain — that somehow we are in his or her care."
    'I'm A More Decent Human Being Because Of It'
    Believers are certainly going to take issue with that. And so do many scientists. I put the question to New York University's Devinsky. Does the fact that we can track spiritual feelings in our temporal lobe mean that there's nothing spiritual going on?
    "No," he says simply.
    Think about a man and woman who are in love, Devinsky says. They look at each other, and in all likelihood, something fires in their temporal lobes.
    "However, does that negate the presence of true love between them?" he asks. "Of course not. When you get to spirituality, as a scientist I think it really becomes extremely difficult to say anything other than, 'It's possible.' "
    As for Schimmel, the fellow with temporal lobe epilepsy, he finds it hard to believe that his new faith and love for his fellow man come merely from an electrical impulse that's gone awry.
    "But I'll tell you what the real bottom line is for me," says Schimmel, who has taken up Buddhism to harness his spiritual life. "I don't care where it comes from. I'm just a happier person, and I'm a more decent human being because of it."
    Part 3 of this series look at spiritual virtuosos — Buddhist monks and other long-term practitioners of meditation who are coming under the gaze of brain researchers.
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...34&ft=1&f=1012

    It's very interesting. The brain can be a very deceptive thing considering your whole reality is based on it. It only takes little tweaks to bring on such an induction.

    This in no way disproves god. But it does bring questions to spirituality, such phenomena as 'ghosts', and the magical spiritual sensations that many seem to experience. Many times I believe brought on by self-induction, a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts.

    We are gullible to internal self-created sensations and, as such, can be fooled to believing they're 'real' and externally independent of the self.

  2. #2

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    anything you sense must come from your brain its as simple as that--- and any small variance can produce wild effects; we are very delicate machines, but very tough in our own ways as well.

  3. #3
    Fiyenyaa's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, United Kingdom
    Posts
    2,664

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    Very interesting.

    I think that there should be some sort of study to see which sort of religious experience people from different cultures have; if one is brought up buddhist, does one have a much larger chance of a buddhist-related religious experience, for example.

  4. #4
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    There have been already: it's not wholly cultural, obviously.

  5. #5
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    I hate it when forums display your location. Now I have to be original.
    Posts
    8,032

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    There have been already: it's not wholly cultural, obviously.
    Source? I'd be most interested in reading this.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  6. #6
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Source? I'd be most interested in reading this.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuralism

    You'd be most interested in having basic info about reality you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowerWizard View Post
    The fact that our mental capibilities such as imagination is linked to brain activity doesn't rule out the possbility that a single brain could be connected to a mind greater than a man's. Sensory perception is not the only form of perception. In fact, the highest form of mental activity is thinking, and it is not restricted to our sensory organs.
    The structure of the sensor determines the input of the related processor.

  7. #7
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    I hate it when forums display your location. Now I have to be original.
    Posts
    8,032

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuralism

    You'd be most interested in having basic info about reality you mean.
    Fiyenyaa spoke about studies. You said there have been such studies. I asked for sources, ie, which studies you referred to. You give me a wiki link AND a condescending tone.

    Thank you for reminding me once again who Ummon is.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  8. #8

    Icon1 Re: It's all in the mind

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    The structure of the sensor determines the input of the related processor.
    I'll stay with Kant. "Although all our knowledge begins with experience, it does not follow that it arises from experience. It is quite possible that our empirical knowledge is a compound of that which we receive through impressions, and that which the faculty of cognition supplies from itself (sensuous impressions giving merely the occasion)." Apriori knowledge is independent of the content of experience.

  9. #9
    Fiyenyaa's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, United Kingdom
    Posts
    2,664

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    There have been already: it's not wholly cultural, obviously.
    I'm sure that there have been. I'm really concerned with the ratio, which I assume (although I'm prepared to be proved wrong, as one obviously should be) would heavily favour the most prevalent cultural reference points.

    If the opposite was the case, then you'd have whole communities converting to religions they'd barely known about without the help of any missionaries and the like.

  10. #10

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    The fact that our mental capibilities such as imagination is linked to brain activity doesn't rule out the possbility that a single brain could be connected to a mind greater than a man's. Sensory perception is not the only form of perception. In fact, the highest form of mental activity is thinking, and it is not restricted to our sensory organs.
    Last edited by Aldgarkalaughskel; May 20, 2009 at 05:37 AM.

  11. #11
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    The literature is so vast that you are better googling "ethnopsychiatry", "archetypal psychology" and "structuralist anthropology". Then if you cannot assume the synthesis of the info from the links you get, it's only your fault.

    Ummon is a label. I am someone who doesn't like nonsense.
    Last edited by Ummon; May 20, 2009 at 10:39 AM.

  12. #12
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    I hate it when forums display your location. Now I have to be original.
    Posts
    8,032

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    The literature is so vast that you are better googling "etnopsychiatry", "archetypal psychology" and "structuralist anthropology". Then if you cannot assume the synthesis of the info from the links you get, it's only your fault.

    Ummon is a label. I am someone who doesn't like nonsense.
    Oh, I see. So it took me two whole posts to get a proper answer out of you, and at what cost? The most patronising tone ever conceived.

    You know, sometimes people simply don't know something. And then they ask. I asked -you- for help, and you decided it was time to be a dick. In the realm of bad things, I'd say that not knowing something and trying to find out is by far outdone by knowing many things and being a stuck up about it.

    You are hardly the right person to dislike nonsense.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  13. #13
    Manco's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Curtrycke
    Posts
    15,076

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    Structuralism is a paradigm, and a study like Fiyenyaa describes would fit into that paradigm. But just mentioning structuralism is obviously not an answer to his question, and certainly no study.
    Some day I'll actually write all the reviews I keep promising...

  14. #14
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    Indeed, a mention of a middle level concept is only a pointer to lower level analyses. Some people use pointers, others hate them for being just pointers.

    Structuralism, besides, is a theory only to those who do not grasp the underlying processes. To those who do, it is fact.

  15. #15
    Manco's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Curtrycke
    Posts
    15,076

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    I would not call it a theory per se, the word paradigm fits better imo. It's a way to look at the world, not just describing how that world works.

    But anyway, claiming structuralism as a fact is a bridge too far. It ignores independent thought and action, is way too deterministic and fails to account for elements influencing the structure instead of only vice versa. Though more modern proponents will probably have formulated some answers to that.
    Some day I'll actually write all the reviews I keep promising...

  16. #16
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    Not really. It's a bridge too far if you ignore state-of-the-art information. Network theory is a perfect confirmation and corroboration of structuralism. System theory as well.
    Last edited by Ummon; May 20, 2009 at 06:20 AM.

  17. #17
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    Was the question intended to acquire knowledge? A question must be specific enough to allow for an answer, to be useful. When people study how to pose questions in clinical psychology (that's one thing to study) infact, an excess of breadth is considered negative for communication.

    So I guess you can imagine that "I would like to see a source about cultural invariance in symbols" is maybe a little too broad. Infact, answering would be like writing a book.

    One can surely settle with examples though. For example, why is that I can find buddhist, egyptian, masonic and alchemical symbols in my dreams, and I find these in dreams made before I actually knew those symbols? It is because of reincarnation? Or because all human minds share the same structure, and symbols arise from that structure?

    Surely, a two row comment, will not answer your doubts and questions. But it's fairly natural to assume that if you have questions so ample you may restrict them to simpler units or try to research on your own.

  18. #18
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    I hate it when forums display your location. Now I have to be original.
    Posts
    8,032

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    Was the question intended to acquire knowledge?
    Yes.

    I won't even legitimise the rest of your tripe with a comment. If you've got a problem with the way I asked for information you can send me a PM.

    For now, to get back on topic: The OP posted some very interesting information. While I think it's a long shot to say that people who believe in god have some sort of mental mutation, it might be that certain developments in the brain can make people more susceptible to the idea. Or less, for that matter.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  19. #19
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    For now, to get back on topic: The OP posted some very interesting information. While I think it's a long shot to say that people who believe in god have some sort of mental mutation, it might be that certain developments in the brain can make people more susceptible to the idea. Or less, for that matter.
    Which infact, confirms that you weren't asking for information.

  20. #20
    Manco's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Curtrycke
    Posts
    15,076

    Default Re: It's all in the mind

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    Which infact, confirms that you weren't asking for information.
    He asked for a source for a study, you didn't give one despite it being a simple question.

    Instead you referred to a broad paradigm that is not uncriticized despite how you present it, to my knowledge that is not a study, merely the paradigm that study would have followed.

    Stop twisting the facts.
    Some day I'll actually write all the reviews I keep promising...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •