Divide And Conquer - An Expanded Faction Mod - Beta released! 3.99* series Sept 1st Oct ## NEWS! We have reached 31 faction limit !!! ##

[Feadhel]

I like where this mod is going. Keep it up!

[Arvedui]

Just started my first Rivendell campaign, one thing are the Elvven unit sizes going to be lowered? if they are would it make sense to have the Eldar unit sizes slightly higher than their less elite units (bare with me). My reasoning for this would be that a professional army wouldnt go into a battle with less men than a drafted in army (especially imortal beings). And the Eldar need to have their stats raised IMO purely because some swordsmen lost 30 Elves taking a rebel settlment, thats just silly :S, the most elite warriors in Middle Earth shouldnt even be tested by men with sticks that are slightly sharp

[lordyu]

War of the Dwarves and Orcs
War of the Dwarves and Orcs
Conflict from Tolkien's Legendarium
Location Misty Mountains
Date T.A. 2793–2799
Result Pyrrhic Dwarf victory
Combatants
Dwarves (Durin's Folk and the 6 other clans). Orcs of the Misty Mountains
Participants
Thráin II
Náin †
Dáin Ironfoot
Thorin Oakenshield Azog †

In J. R. R. Tolkien's fictional realm of Middle-earth, the War of the Dwarves and Orcs was a great war fought between the two races. Accounts of the war are found in The Lord of the Rings Appendix A and History of Middle-earth Volume XII.

The War began when the elderly exiled Dwarven King Thrór, heir of Durin, wandered alone into Moria and was murdered by Azog the Orc in 2790 of the Third Age. Not only did Azog murder him, but branded his own name upon the Dwarf's severed head — the body was hacked to pieces and fed to the crows. Azog gloated over this act and not only prevented the Dwarves from recovering Thrór's head but insultingly tossed a money bag in mock "payment" for the head.

From T.A. 2790 to 2793 the Longbeards that were Durin's folk responded to this insult by gathering their forces, calling on all the other Dwarf houses for help. In T.A. 2793 the combined armies of the Dwarves attacked, sacking one by one all the Orc-holds of the Misty Mountains from Mount Gundabad in the north to the peak of Methedras in the south.

Most of the war was fought underground, in the great mines and tunnels of the Misty Mountains, where Dwarves excel in combat, and as such they went unaided by the other Free Peoples. The war was said to be very terrible, with neither side showing any mercy. The Dwarves had the upper hand, however, thanks to their prowess and their superior weapons and the great wrath that was in them.

The war climaxed in T.A. 2799, when a final battle was fought in the valley outside the eastern gates of Moria, the Battle of Nanduhirion or Azanulbizar as the Dwarves called it. It was later said that the memory of that battle still causes "Orcs to shudder and Dwarves to weep." The battle initially went against the Dwarves, for the Orcs had the high ground and the greater numbers, and being a dark day in winter there was no sun to bother the orcs. The tide was only turned when a last contingent of fresh warriors from the Iron Hills, led by Náin son of Grór, arrived to reinforce the wavering Dwarves. Azog was slain by Dáin Ironfoot, son of Náin, and his head stuck on a pike with the money bag stuck inside the mouth. The Orc-host suffered vast casualties with some 10,000 killed and the remaining remnant routed.[14]

After the battle, Thráin II son of Thrór wanted to enter Moria and reclaim it, but the Dwarves not of Durin's folk refused, saying they had honoured Durin's memory by fighting, and this was enough. What remained of Durin's folk could not alone muster a force strong enough to enter Moria. The Dwarves also feared the Balrog of Moria, called Durin's Bane, was still present.

The war was also very costly for the Dwarf race, as more than half of those involved were killed. [15] Náin son of Grór, Frerin second son of Thráin II, and Fundin son of Farin, the father of Balin were among the more noted casualties. Thráin II himself lost an eye, and his elder son Thorin earned his epithet "Oakenshield" after he used an oak branch to defend himself after being wounded.

During the conflict many Orcs fleeing south through Rohan, trying to claim a refuge in the White Mountains beyond, troubled the Rohirrim for two generations. Other effects of the war were that the Orcs of the Misty Mountains virtually disappeared as a threat for Eriador and Wilderland: the goblins of the High Pass near Rivendell were some of the few survivors.

150 years later the Orcs of the North still had not fully recovered, but their population was further reduced during the Battle of Five Armies in 2941, where Bolg son of Azog tried to avenge his father; Bolg was killed by Beorn.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Battle_of_Azanulbizar

[Archaon]

@lordyu, We appreciate the link and information posted, however, Sorry i personally do not like wiki's as a source of info.
Do you have a better source than a wiki?

[Renown]

Just started my first Rivendell campaign, one thing are the Elvven unit sizes going to be lowered? if they are would it make sense to have the Eldar unit sizes slightly higher than their less elite units (bare with me). My reasoning for this would be that a professional army wouldnt go into a battle with less men than a drafted in army (especially imortal beings). And the Eldar need to have their stats raised IMO purely because some swordsmen lost 30 Elves taking a rebel settlment, thats just silly :S, the most elite warriors in Middle Earth shouldnt even be tested by men with sticks that are slightly sharp

yeah I'm trying to find a middle ground for elven units. But they weren't invincible I've upped their damage again in my current mod (i play with a slightly altered version every time I start up, its one of the reasons why I find it hard to track the changes.. I make a lot.

i think I might have made the elves too powerful in my current game.

[Renown]

@lordyu, We appreciate the link and information posted, however, Sorry i personally do not like wiki's as a source of info.
Do you have a better source than a wiki?

im a little confused over what he is trying to prove myself.

sounds like he wants to make his own mod to me. I wish him the best of luck.

[lordyu]

Trying to help.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/w/warof...esandorcs.html

[Archaon]

thank you lordyu,

@Renown, that is actually a good link, if you look at thier resources they use some really good Tolkien sites. now we have a good list of 'real' informative site to work from and you can put your very precious books down for a rest

[Arvedui]

yeah I'm trying to find a middle ground for elven units. But they weren't invincible I've upped their damage again in my current mod (i play with a slightly altered version every time I start up, its one of the reasons why I find it hard to track the changes.. I make a lot.

i think I might have made the elves too powerful in my current game.

I currently modded my Eldar to have 2 Hp and a boost to their defensive skill, it seems to be working well, they make light work of all of the lower orcs unless massivly outnumbered, more elite units can trouble them though (obviously they still need to outnumber them) and Black Numenorians do ok against them, loosing but taking their share with themiv also lowered all Eldar too have 100 men on high settings. Just leaving abit of feedback

[Archaon]

*I seem to be writing this word a lot today..*
I “hate” having more than 1 HP for any unit.
The problem with 2 HP or more is charges, Cavalry, unit, all charges are made obsolete.
So unless your intention is to eliminate the effectiveness of a charge DO NOT use 2 HP or more.

Seriously people, do you think any elf unit would suffer zero kills from a charge of any type? At least one elf would fall, and honestly, if Rohan turned on them would you think their cavalry charges would yield no single death from the initial charge?

Raising HP works for beasts, leave it with the beasts!

[Renown]

I currently modded my Eldar to have 2 Hp and a boost to their defensive skill, it seems to be working well, they make light work of all of the lower orcs unless massivly outnumbered, more elite units can trouble them though (obviously they still need to outnumber them) and Black Numenorians do ok against them, loosing but taking their share with themiv also lowered all Eldar too have 100 men on high settings. Just leaving abit of feedback

I boosted attack and defense for all elven units (except missile). In a varied pattern.

I've given the Western Elves better attack and defense (by 1-2 points for comparable units) but the Eastern elves still have the better archers (only by missile skill) and have a higher rate of recruitment.

I don't like boosting the HP for MOST UNITS (though the Warriors of Mithlond will have 2 hitpoints, and a correspondingly lower number). Mine are still full strength.

I'll probably end up dropping them below... to something like 80 strong. and up their defense a bit more. As it is now.. the melee troops just can form a line.. while my archers RAPE. I just fought 10 successive battles near Osgiliath... I've lost about 1000 elves, for... about 20x if not more Orcs/Uruks of Mordor.

their melee units are superior, but its really their bow units that rack up 5-800 kills per battle per unit.

In my current game, Angmar is almost dominating the North, being held in check by Rivendell and Belegost (while I run rampant with my troops down south as Lindon).

Mirkwood has decided to go to war with dale - which cost it a lot of its provinces to Dol Guldur, who is about 3/4's as strong as Mordor in my game (because I've been wrecking Mordor's armies for about 20 turns).

I boosted Rohan's cavalry - about 1-2 attack points for all their cavalry (primary and secondary) but boosted their charges by about 3 or so. And increased the general's guard (was suprisingly weaker than the Royal guard i found). Rohan was unlucky and got sideswiped by a massive invasion of Edoras (8 stacks, 1 isengard, 2 Dol Guldur, 3 Mordor, and 1 Umbar and 1 Harad) with Harad capping and KEEPING it. Dol Guldur has taken their Eastern most provinces with Isengard capturing most of the rest (leaving 4 settlements uncapped, including the Hornburg) but remarkably Rohan has persisted in staying alive, and hurting Isengard's forces thanks to Hornburgs superior facilities. Gondor, partially due to me, mostly due to itself has been keeping both Harad and Mordor exceptionally busy.

The only faction that functioned subpar in this game was RotN. I'm going to see what I can do to help them out a bit. I don't want to strengthen them much, I have a feeling it's their proximity to Angmar that enables them to get wiped out without much of a chance of building any defenses. I think I may try adding 2-3 settlements between Angmar and the Rangers, and possibly give them to the Rangers. (Also considering removing the purely hobbit settlements from Bree-land, and giving them to the Rangers (as it was the ranger's who protected them, not bree...)

Bree did nothing, which was great - until the Rangers got killed, and then Bree managed to hold of Angmar for probably about 15 turns before it eventually lost Staddle, and then Archet/Combe/Bree in quick succession. They responded by attacking the men of minhiriath, taking Cardolan, and then losing it. Bree's issue is two fold. A) Very low recruitment pools. b) poor units in general.

But thats fine with me, as they are designed they held out about as much as I could expect them to.

I'm additionally going to be looking into re-emergent scripting for the RoTN- attached to Rivendell (who was their main supporter) to ensure they never truly die out, and find a way (much in spirit of how they aways fled certain destruction and came back to pick at their enemies.

I'm also considering doing this for Angmar/Dol Guldur, and Mordor - attaching their factions (i've got a way to do this) to Barad-Dur. Ensuring that as long as Barad-dur is in Sauron's hands... the enemies will never truly die. You may conquer their bases, but a couple of turns later (or one.. haven't figured it out yet) they'll spawn back in. Ensuring battles/enemies in the NW and N for ever - thus directing the focus (for the player) to Mordor no matter where you are located.

[freitach]

Uhm imho i would'nd give RotN more settlements or even settlements of Bree, cause as you said, they protected them, and not ruled them.
I would try to advance the cities of RotN more, and maybe raise the culture, or slightly decrease the recruitment time.
And adding new towns for them, they can't protect would just strengthen Angmar even more, so maybe 1-2 forts (ok bit un-lore for rangers) on key-locations (bridges), will give them protection, but no extra economy...

[Renown]

the economy isnt an issue for rangers. They can't do much with the cash anyways. in fact, afaik the economy plays little to no part of our current timeline. I'm considering basically making it irrelevant entirely. Balancing it is a pain in the ass, and its not like Sauron worried about paying his troops for example.

The best way to deal with Unit Upkeep etc, it to manage the unit build pool. Managing that (with the increased build times for buildings that I've already set in place) will force the player to deal with things more strategically - aiming for specific enemy outposts that have better unit production - defending their key positions. etc.. and take away attention from the stupid metagame of the economy that was never introduced properly anyways (the AI tends to be extremely stupid when it comes to cash).

Issues here would of course resolve around the AI being able to 'bribe' anything for 1 turn. Upping basic loyalty should help manage this.

I'm considering decreasing -drastically - Gondor/Rohan/Dale/Dwarve (and even Elves) so that they can only recruit a limited selection of troops, I'd lower their unit numbers too.. to compensate for heavily increased unit stats - I.e. smaller numbers of Good soldiers vs larger amounts of enemy troops as a whole. (This is only a consideration, and I'll be testing this.

[Archaon]

In ME the trading and money component is irrelevant for fielded armies, they fought to conquer or to survive, payment was not even a factor for anyone, honor was the closest thing to payment.

[Renown]

Well wow... here are pictures from two battles I just had against Mordor near Osgiliath. Pretty large scale.


Heres pictures of the first battle, was about 1500 of my troops, and 1500 gondorian troops vs 7000 Mordor troops in two main forces.

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Here is the even more epic second battle, with my remaining troops against 10,000 Mordor troops.

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Yes, I won both. Yet those loses are pretty large to suffer in two battles back to back. I've now been in Gondor's service for approximately 30 turns. While I've done this, most of the allied territory next to me has fallen. Elves may be powerful, but even they can't be everywhere at once. (FYI this is as Lindon, the most powerful Elven faction in the game, also the most peaceful.)

I'm unsure if I need to change their stats any - except possibly lowering their unit numbers as you can see. Granted, the enemy in the second battle suffered greatly by having no leaders... when Mordor has 1 or 2 Nazgul generals, the fights are much tougher - or at least the enemy doesn't flee as frequently. Regardless... I killed 12,000 orcs in one turn, and captured a remaining 1500 or such. Leaving 2500 orcs still alive from those battles (minus the 1000 the Gondorians took care of...)

I guess Gondor is lucky I'm guarding their borders.. hah.

[Skeleton Of The West]

Wow nice battles! I wish I could have played them looks like great fun.

[Meneldil]

Once again, I'm here to complain about one faction: the RotN.

The Rangers aren't a political entity, they don't rule lands, they don't build cities, they don't hire armies. They're the last heirs of the Kingdom of Arnor and protect these lands with the help of Rivendell. If the RotN are a faction, they might as well replace Bree and the Shire.

This whole area is in fact quite unfitting for a strategy game. There's not any real political authority between Lindon and Rivendell, with the exception of the Shire. Furthermore, Rivendell itself would hardly qualify as a kingdom.
The area is composed of several human settlements not related to eachothers, who act mostly independantly and could hardly field an army. Added to these are a few elven and dwarf settlements somewhat tied to Lindon, Rivendell or Thorin.

Now, having a huge empty area would pretty much suck, of course. Nonetheless, the Bree and RotN factions are disturbing. Both could be turned into a Free people of Eriador faction or something, with different buildings to represent whether a settlement is an actual city or merely a ranger outpost.

[Arvedui]

*I seem to be writing this word a lot today..*
I “hate” having more than 1 HP for any unit.
The problem with 2 HP or more is charges, Cavalry, unit, all charges are made obsolete.
So unless your intention is to eliminate the effectiveness of a charge DO NOT use 2 HP or more.

Seriously people, do you think any elf unit would suffer zero kills from a charge of any type? At least one elf would fall, and honestly, if Rohan turned on them would you think their cavalry charges would yield no single death from the initial charge?

Raising HP works for beasts, leave it with the beasts!

I get what your saying, and like i said (or ment) im only messing around with the stats as Elves are probably the hardest to get right out of all the units in TW versions of lotr. The reason i gave them 2 HP is because if im going to have to wait 18 turns to recruit a flipping expensive unit with not a great deal of men in it the feck me i want it to suivive a long time . Its either that or raise their defense tocrazy high.I also dont thik i was as clear in my last post, i only gave the Swords and spear 2 hp not the bows.
More than anyting however i think that lower orc units and rebles need to be gimped

[lordyu]

The ROTN existed as a single unified body for 1000 years. thought they had no cities they protected eriador. the current faction is the best simulation of there struggles. they did control many of those areas, using them as gathering areas and supply depots.

[Renown]

Once again, I'm here to complain about one faction: the RotN.

Thanks for your input, I respectfully disagree, and that my friend is that. Now, if you have suggestions which could assist in making the RotN a more fun experience, then by all means.

If you're going to try and have me get rid of not only them, but Bree-land then probably Angmar, and Minhiriath and Rivendell (if we follow what you are thinking..)

then the next steps would be to simply remove Lindon and Belegost and might as well just chop off the Misty Mountains.