Fighting Genoese/Pavise Crossbowmen

**Fakir** · May 16, 2009, 10:40 PM

I'd like to begin by stating that I'm new to these forums. Being that this is the strategy forum, I thought it might be interesting to start a topic that is specifically about how to deal with opposing armies that field a substantial number of italian crossbow units in field battles.

Their missile attack is obviously a great concern. However, being that they have their special pavises, in addition to reasonable armour, the even greater concern may be that they are pretty much impervious to missile fire, which effectively rules out fighting fire with fire when opposing them. In melee combat, they are roughly at the level of armoured sergeants, with better combat ability since they use swords. Although, your own army would take quite a beating before being able to engage them in close quarters. All of this considered, they're a huge pain in the ass.

In my experience of facing Milan in the open, the AI usually has five or six of these units on their side.

So, what do you do? How do you deal?

go!

**Viking Prince** · May 17, 2009, 12:40 AM

Well, it is a simply rock, paper, and scissors question. Missle units even the tough ones like crossbows do not like a rear or flanking attack. They are skirmishers and this wedges them in.

Infantry from the front and quick moving units such as heavy cavaly to the rear will quickly brek these units. They are a bit tougher to break than peasants and are quite able to hold ourt for a brief period under a cavalry charge, but like any unit surrounded and pressured by two or more units -- they will break fairly quickly.

**Conquistatore** · May 17, 2009, 05:53 PM

Cavalry charge straight down the guts. Make sure you use Knights. Mounted Sergeants or anything lower than Mailed Knights will be beaten easily. Charges from the flank and rear are best but head on is good as well.

**Silent Assassin** · May 17, 2009, 06:30 PM

Rush the with a good cavalery charge and they will rout be be aware that Genoses will come back they rout easely but come back as quickly

**Fakir** · May 17, 2009, 09:28 PM

I was hoping to hear some realistic ideas. Obviously, flanking with cavalry is the ideal solution to most any problem. However, not everybody plays on Easy, so for some players the enemy also has a large number of armoured spearmen and heavy infantry to guard their crossbowmen. They may also have cavalry of their own, which will charge into your cavalry after it has charged into their troops from behind.

**Viking Prince** · May 18, 2009, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Fakir

I was hoping to hear some realistic ideas. Obviously, flanking with cavalry is the ideal solution to most any problem. However, not everybody plays on Easy, so for some players the enemy also has a large number of armoured spearmen and heavy infantry to guard their crossbowmen. They may also have cavalry of their own, which will charge into your cavalry after it has charged into their troops from behind.

Where does this play on easy come from? I do not recall any mention of difficulty mentioned in any of the posts. I myself play on very hard, but to tell the truth it does not matter for anything but morale breaking.

As far as other units with the crossbow -- this is why you must advance from more than one direction and why cavalry is the best means to do so. Remember that crossbows lose a great deal of their bite unless they are firing directly against the enemy. You can flank and also advance quite well by keeping the enemy spears between your advance and the crossbows.

**Verga_del_Brujo** · May 19, 2009, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Fakir

I was hoping to hear some realistic ideas. Obviously, flanking with cavalry is the ideal solution to most any problem. However, not everybody plays on Easy, so for some players the enemy also has a large number of armoured spearmen and heavy infantry to guard their crossbowmen. They may also have cavalry of their own, which will charge into your cavalry after it has charged into their troops from behind.

Hello, I play in very hard and I'm quite conservative. You have to work to make the ideal solution possible, so the secret is to separate their pavise crossbowmen from the rest of the enemy army, that will give you some room to charge with your own cavalry (if you have... say 1 cavalry unit per 3 enemy's crossbowmen with room enough to charge and escape three times, I think that you can win).
I try to avoid open field battles as attacker (only fight rebels and small groups of enemies at open field). If you defend at open field just place your infantry far at the map, with your cavalry halfway. At some distance from you, the enemy's IA will send his missile units running and the rest of the army walking, so there is the space you need to chase the pavise crossbowmen before they can harm you.
After that you have the bonus that the enemy infantry will reach you very tired or exhausted and you are still fresh.

**spartan117** · May 20, 2009, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Verga_del_Brujo

Hello, I play in very hard and I'm quite conservative. You have to work to make the ideal solution possible, so the secret is to separate their pavise crossbowmen from the rest of the enemy army, that will give you some room to charge with your own cavalry (if you have... say 1 cavalry unit per 3 enemy's crossbowmen with room enough to charge and escape three times, I think that you can win).
I try to avoid open field battles as attacker (only fight rebels and small groups of enemies at open field). If you defend at open field just place your infantry far at the map, with your cavalry halfway. At some distance from you, the enemy's IA will send his missile units running and the rest of the army walking, so there is the space you need to chase the pavise crossbowmen before they can harm you.
After that you have the bonus that the enemy infantry will reach you very tired or exhausted and you are still fresh.

The manner in which the ai approaches you varies depending on the battle ai used in your game however this action by the ai seems dumb and this tactic and exploitation of the the ai's weakness to approach you any different.

Nonetheless I doubt many battle ai's that were released consistently have the ai go on the attack even if on teh strat map the human was the one who initiated contact. If the human attacks those crossbowmen will stay put in many of the battle AIs I have come across.

In the stainless steel mod, the added emphasis on armor quality and the crossbows ability to penetrate armor make them invaluable. Not to mention the increase in strength for cavalry charges in the mod. In that mod, it is all about being able to outmanuever the AI. Those crossbowmen serve as a shooting platform and can leave units decimated if you are not careful. Despite the increased importance on the crossbow in the mod, your tactics will vary depending on the battle situation.

But being able to micromanage your cavalry behind enemy lines will almost always work. I dont know what else to tell you unless you specify on the battle situation.

**Muagan_ra** · May 17, 2009, 09:36 PM

Sorry if you don't feel it's realistic, but I agree that cavalry charging is the way go against unprotected Pavise Crossbowmen.

What I do when facing superior missiles is just advance my line quickly. You'll be attacked by two, maybe three volleys, but the casualites won't be anything drastic. Once you get close enough, they will skirmish back behind their lines - perhaps running a cavalry unit towards them, close enough to make them retreat, will give your advancing line the cover they need?

You could also just have a few units of peasants out in-front, in loose formation, and use them to screen your line as you advance. Sure, they'll get mauled, but that's feudalism for you.

**Fakir** · May 20, 2009, 05:11 PM

That's very good, thank you.

**Viking Prince** · May 20, 2009, 10:12 PM

I think the AI in SS is Lusted's BAI and the same as in Lands to Conquor Gold. It may also be used in several other mods as well. The AI is better at manauver but I do not think the missle units behave any better than the unmodded AI.

The key as you stated is to keep close management of the cavalry. As far as the enemy advancing -- because of the apparant advantage of the crossbows, the AI is foolish not to engage them in firing. This means moving forward and probably onto less than ideal defensive terrain. The problem remains still to be the skirmish character of missile units. Advance the infantry and the crossbows cease to fire and withdraw. Cavalry comes from another angle and the crossbows do not get off a single volley while on the move and the rest is history. It may seem to be a cheat, but this is also what tended to happen historicly as well.

**spartan117** · May 20, 2009, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by Viking Prince

I think the AI in SS is Lusted's BAI and the same as in Lands to Conquor Gold. It may also be used in several other mods as well. The AI is better at manauver but I do not think the missle units behave any better than the unmodded AI.

The key as you stated is to keep close management of the cavalry. As far as the enemy advancing -- because of the apparant advantage of the crossbows, the AI is foolish not to engage them in firing. This means moving forward and probably onto less than ideal defensive terrain. The problem remains still to be the skirmish character of missile units. Advance the infantry and the crossbows cease to fire and withdraw. Cavalry comes from another angle and the crossbows do not get off a single volley while on the move and the rest is history. It may seem to be a cheat, but this is also what tended to happen historicly as well.

Yes but a "smarter ai" would not leave his crossbowmen exposed unnecessarily to cavalry charges. Of course there were bad manuevers used historically but to count on the ai doing in my opinion is exploitation of a poor ai.

I have not used Lusteds battle ai in quite some but I do not remember an encounter where the ai is moving its missile units so far ahead and have them run towards the enemy while the main force casually walks into battle leaving the missile units on an island. (Although I have recently switched to another battle ai, but of course that is not without its own faults.

)

In the Real Combat submod included with vanilla SS the cavalry have increased mass among other things which results in cavalry charges being especially deadly. Not to mention the increased importance of armor and how this increases the priority level on targeting crossbowmen in battle. The reference to SS was not that of the battle ai used but of the unit stats used.