Urban Cohorts

[Tyr]

I, paying germania have come up against a roman army. They have Urban Cohorts. What unit should i use against them,?

Same question for selucids and Britons

[DEMETRIOUS II]

Pin them with spear warband and flank with gothic cavalry or your axemen ( the axes are excellent agaist the cohort armour) . Do you have upgarded to the elite archers ( I believe it's the German forester warband archers) if so switch to flaming arrows and wipe them out.

[Thersites]

Pin em' and flank em'. This mostly works against everything.

[Habelo]

use your cavarly...

[butterfingers158]

Chosen Axemen Kill almost all roman units easy

use war cry before charging

[Tyr]

Thanks

But what about Berserkers or nightraiders, shoud i use them?

And what about Brittainia?

[Bovril]

Berserkers and night raiders are best for getting the opponent to rout, so just charge a unit in when the urbans start to waver. Having a scary unit like this is very useful against the high moral romans.

Against Britain overload on the phalanxes, and arrange them neatly. AI Barbarian armies can't handle a phalanx so long as you protect your flanks since it completely nulifies their charge bonuses, which they rely on. Phalanxes work wonders against the none too solid british chariots too. You'll need some archers or cavalry to see of the light chariots, which are really only usualy an annoyance rather than a major threat (in the AIs hands at any rate).

[rachadell]

use your cavarly...

[General Sun]

Nooo. Use your infantry to flank them. Phalanxes are the best for holding them down and then units like night raiders can go around and take them down. If you charge them directly with cavalry, your cavalry dies. Even if they charge into the cohort's unprotected backs, the cohorts got tough backs and can beat off your cavalry. You have to make sure that the urbans are pinned down by infantry before doing anything else.

[NobleNick]

Tyr,

Let me preface by saying that I haven't played as Germania. But I have occasionally fought against Urban and Legionary Cohort with infantry and with heavy cavalry. And my non-missile post-reform infantry was made up exclusively of gold/gold/+2 chevron Legionary Cohort (which would certainly be at least on par with un-upgraded Urban Cohort). So I have lots of experience using the Cohorts. Almost all my experience is on "HARD" battle difficulty.

Urban Cohorts = slightly tougher than Legionary Cohorts = very mean hombres, even if not upgraded. You do not want to go toe-to-toe with these guys, in equal numbers, as you will lose.

Nooo. Use your infantry to flank them. Phalanxes are the best for holding them down and then units like night raiders can go around and take them down. If you charge them directly with cavalry, your cavalry dies. Even if they charge into the cohort's unprotected backs, the cohorts got tough backs and can beat off your cavalry. You have to make sure that the urbans are pinned down by infantry before doing anything else.

While I agree, in principle, with most everything General_Sun says; rachadell is also correct: You can annihilate a Cohort army with cav.... *IF* you have the right kind of cav, *IF* you have reasonable terrain (wide open terrain with maybe just a few trees to hide in is best), *IF* you use the correct tactics, and *IF* you execute those excellent tactics flawlessly.

General rules: If I have only fast units, I will run the enemy ragged before allowing heavy unit-to-unit contact. I typically pick off all the easy supporting units first, like enemy cav, missile troop support and (if I can) light troops. Once you do this, all the enemy has left is slow moving infantry with no support. Next, isolate individual units and attack. Always attack with overwhelming local superiority. All of this is most easily done if you can engineer the situation (on the campaign map) so that you enter the battle map as the defender.

Things I know will work:

1.) Let's start with my favorite and far-and-away most often used: All cav attacks. Use your all HEAVY cav force to run the enemy until they are "Exhausted." Your cav should still be fresh (run, rest, run, rest, run, rest; while the enemy runs, marches, runs, marches, runs, etc.) Get **AT LEAST** three (3) full units of FRESH or warmed up, heavy or general's cav (5 units is better) to SIMULTANEOUSLY charge the exhausted Cohort from widely different directions. Engineer your attack so that the first hits are directly into the back and flanks of the Cohort and the attack from the front comes 2 seconds later. Heavy cav is a mild "fear" unit for infantry; and 5 of them together produce a strong fear impact. If the Cohorts do not instantly rout, disengage all units immediately and repeat the charge. (In fact the unit that hits from the rear should be disengaging as the frontal attack is hitting.) I do this to heavy infantry all the time, and very rarely have to do a second assault (but Urbans will have higher morale....) Once the Cohort rout, your 5 cav units should totally eliminate the unit in 4 seconds or less. If you see that the Cohort are "fighting to the death," immediately disengage several units to give the Cohorts somewhere to run.

Rinse and repeat with the next isolated unit. Take time out whenever your cav falls below "warmed up." RUN (not walk) your WINDED cav to an isolated spot and keep them motionless to rest them for a while, as the enemy tries to get to that spot. Keep the enemy chasing and exhausted and your own cav fresh, use the pause button relentlessly to make your attack timing perfect, and you will have no problem. This is my bread and butter tactic. I do it for the majority of my non-siege battles. I rely on it. It works wonderfully: My half-stacks of gold/gold Legionary Cav (playing as Romans) and upgraded Sacred Band Cav (Playing as Carthage) typically took less than 15% casualties to wipe out full-stacks of conventional-mix army (about 5 H.I., 5 L.I., 2 spears, 4 cav, dogs, Onager, and 2 ranged units). The tactic even works reasonably for me, playing as the Gauls with most of my cav force = light cavalry (I can't make Noble Cav, yet). But I would caution you: do not take light cav up against Cohorts.

2.) Engage Cohort with spears or H.I. and then hit them from behind with heavy cav charges. Disengage cav immediately after the charge and repeat. Multiple simultaneous cav charges from different directions are better.

Things I **THINK** should work.

3.) Engage Cohorts with spears or H.I. (axemen) and flank attack with spears and/or H.I. You will need locally superior numbers of men: Try to isolate enemy units. I would strive for 3:1 local superiority to minimize losses.

4.) If the enemy only brings H.I. (Cohorts); or after your cavalry has stripped the army down to where it is only H.I. left; the faster archers can bleed the Cohort until the archers run out of arrows. I would engineer it so that they got in lots of flank shots, and not shots from the front nor when the Cohorts were in Testudo.

Hope that helps.

[General Sun]

Noblenick, I agree with most of what you're saying, but for that though you need an entirely cavalry army and an enemy that has no archers. The enemy might elect to attack your infantry units, and then your cavalry tactics wouldn't be useful.

My preference is always towards a greater infantry stack, the infantry can pin and hold its own in a pitched fight much better than cavalry could, light or otherwise. I think 3:1 ratios are really idealized. It's extremely rare for even the AI to let themselves get strung out so much that you have localized numerical superiority like this. So, going for 4:3 numerical superiority is probably more realistic as far as goals go.

I really agree with everything you say but it all really depends on whether the other guy or AI cooperates.

[NobleNick]

I really agree with everything you say...

I see that I am, "preaching to the choir." However, for the benefit of Tyr, I have a few comments.

...but it all really depends on whether the other guy or AI cooperates.

Yes, it does depend on cooperation of the opponent. The advice given assumes AI. I assume a human player could stymy this strategy (don't know this for sure, as I do not play MP). However, I do not remember a time when I have not been able to get the AI to, at least in general, "cooperate" in field battles, when I was on the defensive. (And I am virtually always on the defensive unless I have clear superiority.) My biggest "opponent" often turns out to be the terrain: The stuff I am advocating doesn't work as well in heavily forested areas, desert maps in the summer (saps the cav stamina) or maps with choke points or otherwise without room to run.

...I agree with most of what you're saying, but for that though you need an entirely cavalry army and an enemy that has no archers.

On the cavalry: EXACTLY correct. This works best with all-cav forces. I like to use all-heavy-cav half-stacks: about 8 to 12 units of extremely upgraded heavy cav plus a general.

On the archers: I LOVE to meet forces that are loaded with archer/skirmisher forces, because they are fairly ineffective against gold shield heavy cav and are easy kills. Exception 1: Horse archers are a pain. Whereas I can usually take out an archer unit with a single heavy cav, the HA take 3 of my cav units in order to trap them, and then my cav has done so much running that I have to rest them a bit after the kill. And all this assumes the HA cooperate in their own demise; which sometimes they do not. Exception 2: Foresters are almost as grand a pain as HA. They are more effective than normal archers at killing from a distance; and they are tougher than most good light infantry in melee; so I can't just charge in with one heavy cav unit and expect a good outcome.

...The enemy might elect to attack your infantry units, and then your cavalry tactics wouldn't be useful.

Well, they can *IF* I bring any infantry units. But if I do have any, I can typically hide them in a grove of trees for the entire battle. In fact, I have hidden 14 units units of my army in the trees, so that they could watch my 6 heavy cav (including the general) pick apart a full stack of the enemy that was loaded with heavy infantry and ranged units. Even *IF* you can't hide your infantry, the cav tactics are typically still useful: The cav can still gang up on the flank units, and they can be run along the backside of the enemy, getting some units to turn and break formation to chase them. The end result is that the enemy that meets your front line is fewer in number (typically MUCH fewer in number), more exhausted, and arrive piecemeal. All of this makes the enemy much more easy for your front line to deal with.

My preference is always towards a greater infantry stack, the infantry can pin and hold its own in a pitched fight much better than cavalry could, light or otherwise. I think 3:1 ratios are really idealized. It's extremely rare for even the AI to let themselves get strung out so much that you have localized numerical superiority like this. So, going for 4:3 numerical superiority is probably more realistic as far as goals go..

I beg to differ on the ratios. Well, O.K., for evenly matched infantry-on-infantry in the middle of the battle lines, maybe so. I really try to avoid these massive field brawls unless I have clear superiority. (In fact, I try to avoid them so much, that I am probably only marginally competent to give an opinion on the subject.) However, for cav-on-infantry, 3:1 is not only consistently achieveable (against the AI), it is the MINIMUM I would attempt against heavy infantry. 4:1 and 5:1 are much more common. And I attempt this only after the H.I. have been run ragged. 3:1 ratios (or better), far from being rare, typically occur about X times per battle, where "X" is the number of enemy units on the field.

(Okay, I just realized you might be quoting numbers of MEN, not numbers of units. Given this, my "4:1" is really only 2:1, since cav units are typically less than half the number of men per unit. To get above 3:1, I would then need OVER 6 units of cav per unit of infantry; which is typically not physically possible without long skinny columns of cav and exact attack timing. What I mean by "4:1" is 4 UNITS against 1 isolated enemy UNIT. And what I mean by "isolated" is that there is no enemy melee unit close enough to physically help the unit under attack. Often two enemy units are just yards apart; but unable to aid each other for the very short period that one of them comes under attack. As in the 3:1 attack of friendly cav on enemy unit "X" , near enemy unit "Y" , depicted below. It takes just seconds to get a rout on most units, which does not allow unit "Y" to help. If needed the cav can peel off, to avoid contact with "Y," and then re-attack the routing unit "X" after it separates itself from the group.)

__________ C C C C C C
__________ C C C C C C
__________ C C C C C C
_______________ |
_______________ |
_______________ V

C C C C
C C C C . . . X X X X X X X X . . . Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
C C C C --> X X X X X X X X . . . Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
C C C C . . . X X X X X X X X . . . Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
C C C C

_______________ /\
_______________ |
_______________ |
____________C C C C C C
____________C C C C C C
____________C C C C C C



A note on preferences: You mentioned that you prefer to use infantry. I think most share your preference. I prefer to go heavy on cav: Even my ideal "balanced" force has 7 cavalry units (including the general). In order to prevail with all-cav or mostly cav, one must make very heavy use of the pause button. I enjoy this play style immensely, but understand that some won't like it at all. I offer it only as an option; but maintain that it is an option that has the potential to be EXTREMELY effective if executed correctly.

Here is how a typical field battle goes: I stick my all-cav force on a campaign map location selected for it's favorable terrain and proximity to enemy stacks. An enemy stack attacks. I go into the battle on the defensive (that means they MUST chase me in order to have any chance at winning), and the battle force indicator is typically mostly red, with a message that says, "Defeat is a distinct possibility."

I hide most of the cav and let the enemy chase the general for a while. (If no hiding spots, I break up the cav into 2 or 3 groups of 3 or 4 cav each, and 2 groups are typically resting at any given time.) If the enemy cav gets brave and sallies away from protection of the main body, I crucify it 4:1 with my own heavy cav. The same demise meets any ranged unit that gets even slightly separated from the main body; and I can typically force this slight separation by having groups of cav feign attacks on the main body simultaneously from all directions of the compass.

Sometimes it is enough to simply have the cav moving to all directions of the compass and surrounding the main body of the enemy force. The AI seems to get confused when you do this; or, at least, the conversion from 1 to 2 fronts makes it momentarily look confused. And this is when your cav can bolt in and eliminate half of an archer unit before the enemy even knows what has happened; and then get out before the protecting infantry can close to melee.

After removal of the ranged units (or sometimes if a stubborn ranged unit can not be forced away from its protection), my cav simply keeps their distance and does the "run-rest" thing and lets the enemy army chase. By the time the battle timer is at the half-way point, the enemy army is typcally stripped down to all non-ranged infantry, and these are typically all "Very tired," or "Exhausted;" while my horses are all, "Warmed up," or (mostly) "Fresh." Often, at this point, the battle balance indicator will say something like, "Friendly forces killed: 5%. Enemy forces killed: 30%. Defeat is a distinct possibility." I just have to laugh.

Next, I take out (preferably in this order) ranged units (any that might be left), enemy cav (any that might be left), Light Infantry, Heavy Infantry and Spears/Phalanx. I strive for a minimum ratio of 3:1 on the exhausted light infantry and 4:1 on exhausted H.I. Unless a golden opportunity presents itself, I always save Spears/Phalanx for last, and I make sure they are "Exhausted," not just merely "Very Tired." I have found that I lose a few horses to phalanx/spears even when the spears are "Exhausted" -AND- also "Routing."

Typically post battle reports show friendly losses of 50 to 100 out of 900 men, compared to enemy losses of 2350 out of 2400 men (with the only escapees typically being the enemy cav). All of this is for "Hard" battle setting. I will try to remember to take a few pics of my next encounter, and post them in this thread. I can't yet build heavy cav in my current campaign; but results with the much more fragile light cav should illustrate the point.

[General Sun]

I just feel that such a long post deserves a reply. I must say that I agree with your tactics, just that I have a different playstyle which causes me to scratch my head a little at some of what you're saying. Defense and running away just isn't my thing, lol. In a traditional battle... Well, we're not talking about traditional battles. But again, superb post.

[NobleNick]

I just feel that such a long post deserves a reply. I must say that I agree with your tactics, just that I have a different playstyle which causes me to scratch my head a little at some of what you're saying. Defense and running away just isn't my thing, lol. In a traditional battle... Well, we're not talking about traditional battles. But again, superb post.

Thanks, General_Sun.

Yeah, heh, heh: Long posts and long battles. I just got PMed by someone saying they have to re-visit my posts: can't get through it in one read. What I do is more gamesmanship than simulating what would occur in a real battle. I think that many, if they were to see me turning the first 30 minutes of a 45-minute timed battle into a 2-hour project, would ask, "Do you actually enjoy this? .... No, come on! ... Really?"

Yes, I do.