The "God" paradox

[bthizle1]

So, I was thinking about this today (thanks to my good ol' friend Epicurus) and would appreciate an explanation from the religious folk and/or discussion of any kind that has to do with "it."

Anyways.....

If god is benevolent (all loving), than he would want to stop evil no? So, is he willing but not able? If this is so, then he is not omnipotent (all powerful). If he is able but not willing, than he would clearly be malevolent (he can help to prevent evil, but does nothing). If he can both prevent evil and wants to prevent evil (benevolent) than why does evil exist? Perhaps he is neither able, nor willing to prevent it? However if so, than why would anyone refer to this being as "God" in the first place.

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

'God' allows evil for the same reason it allows free will. In other words, 'God' gives you responsibility to choose your actions. In each second, you can choose from several thoughts and actions, even evil ones. That's how man becomes a moral being.

why does evil exist? Perhaps he is neither able, nor willing to prevent it?

See above.

However if so, than why would anyone refer to this being as "God" in the first place.

It's a matter of taste and definition.

[bthizle1]

'God' allows evil for the same reason it allows free will. In other words, 'God' gives you responsibility to choose your actions. In each second, you can choose from several thoughts and actions, even evil ones. That's how man becomes a moral being.

Than he wouldn't be all loving, as he allows for it to happen, but could put an end to it. If he's omnipotent than he knows past, present and future. Why would he knowingly create a creature that would cause so much destruction not only towards themselves, but other species as well? Your defense is that he's not making the choice himself, meaning that he's not causing the evil. However if he knew before hand this excuse is kind of invalid.

Free will always just seemed like a cop out to me, and I don't even think that free will and foreknowledge (predestination) cannot coincide with one another. Ie. I'm not trying to say that they cannot coexist, just that if they do than God is clearly not benevolent.

It's a matter of taste and definition.

I'm clearly referring to the typical Abrahamic God that is all loving (benevolent) and all powerful (omnipotent).

[spanish_emperor]

There have been many 'answers' given by Christian philosophers in past and present, but there could also be many other reasons not even suggested by religious followers. For example, maybe God was omnipotent but after he created the universe he lost all his power.
Who knows what the answer could be but more importantly, who cares? It just raises questions which you can only assume with the current knowledge we maintain yet cannot possibly prove; there are no facts or methods to correct any of these religious ideas and, in my opinion, it's time wasting. Maybe in the future these questions will cease to become mysteries but for now i rather not think about it. Believe what you want as long as it does not interfere with human rights.

[black-dragon]

I was debating this with a Christian yesterday...Oh the responses I got, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. e.g. "The Holocaust was God's punishment to the Jews so it was not evil".

-sigh-

Usually it's some half assed free will response or weird reason why evil is actually good. hmm...

[Aetius]

One cannot comprehened the will of God.

Burn heathen.

[Fiyenyaa]

Or try the response that St. Thomas Aquinas gave (I think it was him) - that evil does not exist because evil is the lack of good, and a lack of something cannot exist.

I mean, I know he was from the 12th century, but that is the worst argument I've ever heard.

[Tankbuster]

The free will argument can work pretty well, but it doesn't explain why some babies are born with horrible genetic defects or why sometimes an earthquake kills hundreds of thousands of people. That has nothing to do with free will, except if you call nature's cataclysmic events free will.

The really interesting question to me is: why do people torture themselves with these kinds of questions? Isn't it obvious why babies are born with genetic defects? It's simply because of the overcrossing of their genes, and sometimes, things go horribly wrong there. Isn't it obvious why there are earthquakes and tornadoes? It's because we live on a cooling planet, baby; with big cracks in its crust and a turbulent weather system.
Yet they simple can't accept the rational, scientific explanations, because then they will figure out that the laws of nature are never violated; that diseases are never magically cured, that the blind are never cured, that the dead will never walk. And then that leaves no more place for an intervening god.

I made a small essay about this a while back:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=174429

[NONOPUST]

Because God so loved us he gave us free will, and therefore let us choose to be evil or not. Hence why he lets evil/hell exist so he can punish those who choose wrongly(aka logically, because he deems it too much to prove he exists). Blah blah blah etc etc etc.

Sounds like God is a dick imo.

[black-dragon]

The free will argument can work pretty well

Not really. Because God created this universe, including the possibility of murder, rape, etc. It's like putting a child in a room with a loaded gun. The loaded gun might be on top of the shelf, hidden under a floorboard, or something like that - but the child will eventually get to it and use it. Whose fault is it?

[NONOPUST]

Not really. Because God created this universe, including the possibility of murder, rape, etc. It's like putting a child in a room with a loaded gun. The loaded gun might be on top of the shelf, hidden under a floorboard, or something like that - but the child will eventually get to it and use it. Whose fault is it?

The child obviously

[Tankbuster]

Not really. Because God created this universe, including the possibility of murder, rape, etc. It's like putting a child in a room with a loaded gun. The loaded gun might be on top of the shelf, hidden under a floorboard, or something like that - but the child will eventually get to it and use it. Whose fault is it?

Well, I think a parent always needs to have a little bit of trust in his children. You say you wouldn't put a child in a room with a loaded gun; that's fair enough. Would you let a child go to a party where you know there are going to be some people with drugs walking around?
Unless you want to incredibly restrict the free will of your child by not letting him go to any place where there might be a gun under the floorboard, you're going to have to trust your child, raise him correcly, and hope for the best. And free will is only free will if it means it's not restricted.

This theistic argument actually makes sense to me. It's simply not sufficient though.

[black-dragon]

Well, I think a parent always needs to have a little bit of trust in his children.

But this parent created the urge to "sin". Adam was lonely for a reason Furthermore, if God is omnipotent, he could have made a world in which we have free choice yet are not exposed to "evil". He can do anything, right?

Unless you want to incredibly restrict the free will of your child by not letting him go to any place where there might be a gun under the floorboard, you're going to have to trust your child, raise him correcly, and hope for the best. And free will is only free will if it means it's not restricted.

The best God could do was instruct his children not to eat fruit from a tree. A tree that he put there. A more accurate comparison would be a parent organizing a party for his/her child and inviting some fresh-out-of-jail drug dealers over. Didn't be blind Saul? That would have restricted Saul's ability to perform certain actions, thus limiting his "free will".

[Dr. Croccer]

We already had a thread like this.

[Каие]

This is why Deism trumps all.

[Chaigidel]

you have twisted concepts of free will.

[black-dragon]

Please elaborate.

[Phier]

Most of the answers involve God being a bit of a jerk.

[Chaigidel]

you think free will means being able to do anything without any consequences; while it simply means you have the power of choice over your own flesh your own form and mind.

if that flesh is damaged, it does not limit your will only your flesh.

[black-dragon]

So why didn't God create us with the physical inability to do harm?