The Free Barbarians....

[dvk901]

....are really no longer necessary. It would take a bit to explain why, but let's just say some recent brain-storming on the part of the site's gurus has resulted in a much better understanding of the Slave faction to the point where 'Free' factions really aren't necessary.

This opens up some possibilities and some issues. Possibilities include adding another Faction.....like the Lusitanians, Galatians or a 'Barbarian' faction of some form. This would be the easiest to do because we already have several mini-factions that have a unit roster as good or better than any Vanilla faction ever had.

The second.....much harder option...is a 'roman_rebel' faction. The coding and work involved here would be...well, astronomically harder than the former option. It would involve adding loyalty and making a virtual boatload of changes I don't even want to think about, but it does have the appeal of allowing, for example, a couple regions in southern Italy to rebel whilst Hannibal gets his butt kicked outta Italy. And of course, that Roman settlements that rebel would rebel to the Roman rebel faction. And it might be easier to figure out how to cause the massive rebellion we've talked about after the 'Imperial Reforms'.

Personally, with the limitations in RTW on factions, I don't like 'rebel' factions. Then again, the Free factions are essentially 'rebel factions'...so what am I complaining about.
Option one is a lot easier. Option two is going to require some more intense thinking, co-operation, help getting building descriptions and buildings into the game...I'm backed up for weeks and weeks with stuff to do as it is, so something may well have to give in these areas. I'm also not fond of this option because it would require gobs of changes to banners, buttons and graphical UI files that have them on them. So this option will require the 'OK' of everyone involved.

[apple]

I would personally love another african faction, like Numidia. Carthage is alone down there and could need some company.

[tone]

Or, as I suggested to DVK as a possibility, a proper Germanic faction like the Suebi.

[swhunter]

Or, as I suggested to DVK as a possibility, a proper Germanic faction like the Suebi.

I,m with Tone!
tone could you make two more models?
1#
Another warrior with full bear cloth, Something like from gladiador?
No helm, long hair,beard ect, carrying a long hammer like club?
not speaking of the axeman ( which i love! )
2#
Also ghost warrior.
spear, black painted, dark shield?

So idea number 1 # would be great!

[apple]

Thats a great idea.

[aja5191]

A rebel faction would be AMAZING, but I think it would take too much time to put together and perfect, if I'm understanding things correctly.

I'd like to see some options for a new faction, especially if we've already got unit rosters and faction concepts done.

[apple]

Can someone post a pic with all starting positions?

[The Sloth]

....are really no longer necessary. It would take a bit to explain why, but let's just say some recent brain-storming on the part of the site's gurus has resulted in a much better understanding of the Slave faction to the point where 'Free' factions really aren't necessary.

'Free factions'? Does that mean we don't need the free greeks either?

If we really replace the free factions, I'd rather have playable factions instead. My vote would go to Galatia, an underdog faction for those who really like to fight against all odds. But I won't complain about any barbarian factions our modelers and skinners come up with. They have made all units, and will know best what can be done about this.

[tone]

There's no space for new models. That needs to be understood.

[swhunter]

Nuts.
ok.....
But could the bear warror be reskinned?
For this new german faction?

[MarcusTullius]

From a purely practical point of view, it might be best to get in a faction that we already have units for. Make up a roster from existing mini-faction eg. gallatians and run with that as the basis.

We really don't need to get caught up with further difficulties before releasing the mod...

[Calvin]

Ooh...Roman rebels...oh the possibilities...oh the sleepless nights of work...

I think because of the amount of hard work involved as dvk has stated I'll have to agree that the Roman rebels shouldn't be considered, but can I add a 'for now' to that. I'd love for a patch to be delivered after release to allow them! An actual civil war would be just wonderful!

As far as a new faction goes, I think whichever roster has the most unique units should get in, whoever they are. Or the Galatians simply because they could hold up the Pergamon monster.

[tone]

I agree, Roman rebels aren't realistic just for now but would be an amazing, possibly the ultimate, submod.

Galatians could be good. Are they a worthy faction though?

[The Sloth]

A new faction would have to have the following:
- all/most units already done
- room to expand
- a strategic purpose

I think that limits our options. Most of northern Africa consists of Terra Incognita, so a numidian faction just wouldn't have enough space. The same goes for a lusitanan faction. They would just fight it out with the gallaeci, instead of hampering Carthage, and by the time on of them is victorious, Carthage would already be too strong. I was thinking about a thraikan faction, but stuck between the getae, scythia and macedon, there would just not be enough space for them either.

Also, the new faction's unit roster will be a rip-off of existing ones (since we have no more models left). I'd have suggested the Aedui, but then we would have four almost identical celtic factions, all in about the same area. The lusitanan and suebi/marcomanni factions would sit right next to the gallaeci/cimbrii, and have about the exact same unit rosters (or am I mistaken?). That would be really repetitive.

That's why I think our best bet is a galatian faction. They have the same old celtic unit roster as well, but at least the setting would be very different.

Or maybe the Illyrians? Didn't they have lots of unique units too (Illyrian Infantry, Scordisci)? Tone, what would be the faction with the most unique flair you can think of?

[rory o'kane]

am I the only one who doesn't see the need to get rid of them? remember, they're there to depict lots of smaller tribes, and also to war with the rebel areas to make it look like there's lots of small tribes dotted around the map...

personally, if we do choose to replace them, i see the Suebi as the only really viable option - the other suggested factions, like Galatia and Numidia, will be too small and really close to powerful neighbours - without seriously adjusting the campaign map, they'll have too few starting regions and just get gobbled up by Pergamon/the Seleukids/Ptolies/Armenia or Carthage (respectively)...

[Calvin]

I also had a thought about the Illyrians Sloth. It's certainly a different sort of setting and could spice up that area even more. Currently whoever is victorious between the Macedonians and Spartans has free reign in all of Greece. It would be interesting to see how a neighbour to their north west could influence expansion there. Or of course it could doom the Macs who are far more surrounded by enemies than the Spartans.

I still think that Galatia is probably the better option. For some reason the Suebi just doesn't sound like a great idea to me. The Boii are already hamstrung by having their territories split. Having another faction right near them would doom them.

[Worm]

Why not give Boii this slot so that they expand, and give the senate spot to a rebel faction like Palmyra (they belong to a free faction atm right?). Then it dosn't matter i they do nothing since Seleucid attack them and conquer them imidiatly anyway. And if we give them a goo starting army then mayby they can stop the ptolemaics from expanding to much. And for the experienced players they would be a dream faction for it's challange and awesome units like the Palmyrian Cataphract, Arabian Thorakitai.....

[dvk901]

If you want to see what each of the 'Free barbarian' mini-factions has in terms of units, just look at the last barracks they recruit from (army_base) in export_descr_buiildings.txt. In fact, every single mini-faction is listed there for each Free faction by city\region.

I'd offer some observations, however, about the Campaign as it stands....and some improvements I think could be made to make it better.

1. I'd like to take 'Bononia' away from the Boii in Italy. I'm fairly convinced from what I've seen that they are being forced to act like a 'Free Faction' because one of their regions is so far away. They seem to keep focusing on fortifying it and buildings up a pretty significant 'standing around' bunch of armies there 'protecting' themselves from the threat of the of the Romans and Carthage. They make peace with Rome every single campaign and then just sit there. I know 'historically' they had this area, but they just aren't contributing to Rome's problems the way I wanted them to.

2. The major powers in this mod.....Rome, Carthage, Macedon, Seleucid, Egypt....are all so busy fighting protracted wars with each other or their neighbors that even though they are 'major powers' they don't expand very much very fast....or at all. This is incredibly good, and I'm so happy with the balance here that I hardly dare touch any of them very much. 50 years into a Campaign...still seeing Carthage and Rome, or Seleucid and Egypt duking it out is just incredible balance. I couldn't have gotten that better if I'd done it on purpose.

What this means for all the Barbarian factions....as is evidenced by how the Gallacei do in Spain...is that they don't need as many regions as they have to protect themselves (which in RS1.5 would've always been necessary). The Gallacei could easily start with just Gallaecia....the Arverni with just Avericum...the Belgae with two regions (the one in Briton, and Terrae_bellowhatever)...the Cimbri could lose the southern region and be given Gothi in Scandanavia (they are very slow starters anyway), and then I kinda favor Tone's idea of either the Seubi or maybe Cherusci or a 'confederation' of the two. Opening up Europe this way will give them all breathing room and time to 'do whatever they gotta do' whilst the big boys slug out their incessant wars with each other.

3. Another thing that has to be done is blocking the pass thru the Alps that leads north.....the Romans shouldn't be 'spurting' thru their once they've delt with Carthage. Instead, they should either be forced west to deal with the Massilians, or east to deal with Illyria or Macedon.

4. Two other things I'd like to do which I think are necessary for historical and\or practical reasons. (Prepares self for the screaming) Hibernia is absolutely worthless on this map. Another region in Briton would be FAR more useful. Likewise, Baliares....given how RTW and even BI handle islands and especially tiny ones like this is....is just a wasted region of no importance. Sicilia Medius as well, could be better used along with Baliares to add a couple regions to North Africa in the Numidian area. In reading about the Carthaginians after Sloth re-arranged their leadership, it became apparent that Numidia and Carthage were quite on-again-off-again enemies and friends. There was a lot of history there, and busting up a couple regions there would give Carthage a bit more to fight for, or be bothered with. We should at the very LEAST have a western and an eastern Numidia....because that's how it was.

Edit: Or, as I see above, the Illyrians or the Numidians. I'm fairly sure, Worm, that taking Bononia away from the Boii will help them a lot.

[The Sloth]

Don't get used to good campaign balance just yet, dvk. The next changes to unit stats might already change that. I think it's too early too make the small factions even smaller. As far as my experience goes, the punic war is still very violent, but rather short. Hannibal just can't find new troops in Italy, and the same goes for the romans in Spain. Maybe Genoa and Emporion should have a higher population and better barracks?

I'd also wait with closing the pass over the Alps. Right now, Rome went there because they saw no other choice. If we remove the free barbs and the boii from northern Italy, Rome will have the option to go east. I think the very best thing would be to somehow copy the situation in RS1,5. Rome always went after the Gauls, but only after defeating endless stacks of barbarians in the Po valley. Shouldn't there be a way to do that in RS2 as well? After all, how are the Cimbrii supposed to invade Italy, if there is no mountain pass? (Oh well, the Bear Warriors just will have to make one )

And I agree with the removal of Hibernia, the Baleares and Sicilia Medius. We'll probably need some more regions wherever our new faction will be located.
As for Numidia, I don't really know. For one, once Carthage looses in Italy, it concentrates on taking the african settlements, and once that is done, it passes over the landbridge and floods Iberia with troops. In the long run, more regions in Africa will only make the carthaginian onslaught worse for the gallaeci and the arverni. Does anyone know if it would make sense to remove that landbridge, errect a landblock in the East and force Carthage to go naval? Or will they just wander around in Terra Incognita, looking for a settlement that's not there?

EDIT: So I wrote all that for nothing :-P

[dvk901]

Don't get used to good campaign balance just yet, dvk. The next changes to unit stats might already change that. I think it's too early too make the small factions even smaller. As far as my experience goes, the punic war is still very violent, but rather short. Hannibal just can't find new troops in Italy, and the same goes for the romans in Spain. Maybe Genoa and Emporion should have a higher population and better barracks?

I'd also wait with closing the pass over the Alps. Right now, Rome went there because they saw no other choice. If we remove the free barbs and the boii from northern Italy, Rome will have the option to go east. I think the very best thing would be to somehow copy the situation in RS1,5. Rome always went after the Gauls, but only after defeating endless stacks of barbarians in the Po valley. Shouldn't there be a way to do that in RS2 as well? After all, how are the Cimbrii supposed to invade Italy, if there is no mountain pass? (Oh well, the Bear Warriors just will have to make one )

And I agree with the removal of Hibernia, the Baleares and Sicilia Medius. We'll probably need some more regions wherever our new faction will be located.
As for Numidia, I don't really know. For one, once Carthage looses in Italy, it concentrates on taking the african settlements, and once that is done, it passes over the landbridge and floods Iberia with troops. In the long run, more regions in Africa will only make the carthaginian onslaught worse for the gallaeci and the arverni. Does anyone know if it would make sense to remove that landbridge, errect a landblock in the East and force Carthage to go naval? Or will they just wander around in Terra Incognita, looking for a settlement that's not there?

EDIT: So I wrote all that for nothing :-P

No, not really...because I still think a few things need to be changed.

SW----approx 100AD