Ancient Weapons Guide

[Ariovistus Maximus]

GREAT NEWS FOR ANYBODY WHO HAD DOWNLOAD TROUBLE!!! THE STUDY IS NOW ACCESIBLE AT FILEFRONT.COM!!! LINKS ARE PROVIDED LOWER IN THE POST!

Hi all!

I wanted to post my work that I put on the B.org a while ago.

It's a 3-part study of ancient weapons and warfare that I've been doing for school. I am currently done with 2 chapters. (for you .org-ers I finished chap.2 just after the .org crashed )

Overview of Chapters:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Chapter I is an overview of ancient history concentrating roughly on the Roman Republic era, i.e. 280 B.C. It's just a very brief overview of important cultures of the period. I figured that it would be pointless to talk about ancient weapons unless you know who used 'em.

Chapter II is a study of the weapons themselves. It will give information on the design and use of N. European, Roman, Greek, and Middle Asian/Steppe Tribe weapons.

Chapter III will study battlefield tactics. I will actually be using RTW EB to provide nice, consistent visual aids! Should be up in a week or two.

So I would really like feeback! Anything errors you find, or anything you think would make it better, let me know! Hopefully (and I'm sure with your help) this will be a handy guide on ancient weapons!

ALSO NOTE THAT I WILL POST MY BIBLIOGRAPY WITH CHAPTER III.

CHAPTER ONE

CHAPTER TWO

Enjoy!

[War&Politics]

Well, I don't know much about weapons. You should add sources though, it just looks more professional and trustworthy that way. Otherwise it looks good!

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Looks like I've overcome my login problems. Some comments:

The two-handed axe (bottom) was especially effective, and a frightening weapon in battle.

All true, except there is no evidence that two-handed axes were used before the Medieval Period. It certainly wasn't used in RTW's period or even BI's period. The earliest evidence for them is in the Viking Age.

The Francisa is earlier - circa Sixth-Eighth Century AD - but still well out of your timeframe.

30
Seax
The Saxons referred to any knife or cutting tool as a seax. The word could also describe various Celtic and Germanic swords of ancient times.

Ummm, no it couldn't. A seax is a quite specific weapon though it came in a variety of sizes. It was a pointed, one-edged knife or dagger.

Angon

I'm not sure what the thing in the photo you've given is but it certainly isn't an angon.

Leather Cuirass

The photo you've used here seems to be of some kind of fantasy leather armour. It bears no resemblance to anything used historically.

[Entropy Judge]

Ditto on the sources. Some things that bother me or I think are incorrect:

Part 1

* Lumping all of the British Isles together under "Britannia," and likewise for the Gauls.

* According to Wikipedia, the kopis and falcata were developed parallel (falcata), or that the kopis may have come first (kopis). I've certainly never heard that the falcata formed the basis of the kopis.

* Why seperate Thrace and Dacia? Are they really so different as to warrant two entries?

* Caesar never named himself Emperor - he did become a Dictator (for life), but the first Emperor was Augustus.

* Occasional spelling errors (what caught my eye was mis-spelling Pompey's name, but there may be others).

* When talking about Octavian, Antony, and Cleopatra, you make it sound as though Cleopatra is Octavian's lover, not Antony's.

* IIRC, the Western Roman Empire moved its capital to Ravenna.

* Genghis Khan had to do a bit more than just ride around and burn stuff.

* Since the section on Rome is so large compared to the others, move it either to the beginning or the end of the list - having a great big piece in between many smaller ones is disrupting.

* The Thracians went to Spain?

* On the map you use Hayasdan, but in the 'bios' you use Armenia.

* Constant use of the term "nation." State would be preferable, but the concept of a nation really didn't exist.

Part 2

* Worship of the aquila?

* Thermopylae was held by more than Leonidas's Spartans - there were around 7000 Greeks.

* Wiki'ing "xyston" reveals it to be a cavalry lance; the infantry spear is the Dory, about 6-9 feet long. (Your picture also has a spear of about 8' rather than 12' ...).

* I'm fairly certain that the francisca comes from a much later period than the one you're talking about. Likewise, I'm not sure greataxes were at all common, if they were even used.

* Again, wiki'ing it, the falx *did* have a sharpened blade - it was not a point-only weapon. Again, look at your picture.

* You mention leather armor ... yet if the Celts were such excellent metal-workers, why did they not use metal armor?

* In the intro to "Middle Asian Weapons," you say that the skill and morale of the Hellenics let them overcome their more numerous and less well-trained Persian opponents. Setting aside whether that's true or not, you later make note that the bow was the primary weapon of the Persians. Comparing these two statements, would it not make more sense to say that the Persian equipment and style of battle was simply inferior to the Greek style in that location?

* Is it necessary to refer to the steppe tribes as "bizarre," and to state that they engaged in cannibalism, especially if you're not going to source it?

*

The Amazons were a body of female warriors of Greek mythology, but no doubt had a basis in actual history.

Really.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

So I would really like feeback!

I'd give you some if I could read it. "Login or password incorrect". Why not put it on a proper website so people don't have to frig around with passwords etc? It's not like there's any shortage of free hosting options around.

Worship of the aquila?

Roman Aquilae were kept in a shrine with the other standards and were worshipped as the "genius" of the legion. They were also the centre of special rites on the legion's birthday and on the feast of "Rosalia", when the standards were decorated with garlands of roses.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

ALLL RIIIIIIGHT! SOME FEEDBACK!

REGARDING REFERENCES: yes I have listed all the sites (i think) that I used to get my information. Unfortunately I have not matched all my statements to the corresponding source. I just have 'em lumped together. Sorry; one thing I will work on. On the 3rd chapter, eh? But yes I have recorded the sites I used.

@ ThiudareiksGunthigg: well, i dunno what ur problem might be. Note that you must login twice. Otherwise, well, ??? HOWEVER: I would be glad to send it to you as an email attachment if you give me ur address. Or maybe I can find it in ur profile...

@ Entropy Judge:

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!! This is PRECISELY what I was hoping for. I am not going to pretend for a millisecond that my conclusions are infallible. Now I will try to respond to some of your well-thought observations. And again, thank you!!!!! I want for it to be torn all to pieces; that way it will be all the better!!!

One thing I would like to note is that in the process of writing about 10-15 weapons in the same day (and messing with obnoxious MSWord) I sometimes lost the energy and didn't to do as thorough of a job as I might have. It does show.

1. Lumping all of the British Isles together under "Britannia," and likewise for the Gauls.

Yes, the tribes of Brittania and Gaul were very distinct. I would like to go into more detail, but I just don't know that much about them. You will note that I DID at least mention some major tribes. And I think I mentioned that the Gauls never called themselves Gauls to begin with.

2. According to Wikipedia, the kopis and falcata were developed parallel (falcata), or that the kopis may have come first (kopis). I've certainly never heard that the falcata formed the basis of the kopis.

Hmmm I think I was confusing them with being developed from the Akinakes? Dunno. Will fix!

3. Why seperate Thrace and Dacia? Are they really so different as to warrant two entries

Well, maybe they just seem to be different b/c of RTW! But seriously, it seems to me that the ancient historians made a distinction didn't they? I could lump 'em together easily enough though, sure.

4. Caesar never named himself Emperor - he did become a Dictator (for life), but the first Emperor was Augustus.

Ooh did I imply that he crowned himself? STUPID of me. What I meant was that he seized power. And, well, I don't know any other explanation for marching on Rome with a legion... so I'd definitely say he seized power. But certainly not the way I wrote it! WILL FIX!

5. Occasional spelling errors (what caught my eye was mis-spelling Pompey's name, but there may be others).

Th3r3 aer SEW menee sp3lung errrs!!! Yes, I will be proofreading this for some time to come! There are also A TON of inconsistencies in how I write! Not all my weapons have their dimensions described. Sometimes I have latin words in quotations, sometimes in italics, sometimes nothing... yes, LOTSA inconsistency! But I wrote it in maybe 6 sittings at the most. You are very right, my friend.

Wait, you don't mean spelling Pompey as "Gneius Pompius Magnus" do you? Cuz that's right AFAIK.

6. When talking about Octavian, Antony, and Cleopatra, you make it sound as though Cleopatra is Octavian's lover, not Antony's.

Oops. I do have a tendency to use pronouns too often. Good point.

7. IIRC, the Western Roman Empire moved its capital to Ravenna.

I had no idea! I'm just approaching that period in one of my books. Too bad I hadn't read faster.

8.Genghis Khan had to do a bit more than just ride around and burn stuff.

True that. I basically wanted to provide as much contrast as possible. Yes, I bent the facts to make a better comparison. Shame. I'll find a way to re-write it.

9. Since the section on Rome is so large compared to the others, move it either to the beginning or the end of the list - having a great big piece in between many smaller ones is disrupting.

Will do. Good idea!

10. The Thracians went to Spain?

Yes they did. Check wiki. Let's see, it was... the Bastetani. "The territory of the Bastetani was first settled in BC 12th century by Bithynian Thracians of the Bistones tribe from Turkey." From Wikipedia.

*(skipped by accident)On the map you use Hayasdan, but in the 'bios' you use Armenia.

Good catch! Will fix. Also I will mention about "haiyk" and its dirivitive "hayasdan"

** Worship of the aquila?

Ummm, yeah.

See TRG's explanation above.

*** Constant use of the term "nation." State would be preferable, but the concept of a nation really didn't exist.

Yes. I was plagued by this problem. I will fix it as best I can.

11. Thermopylae was held by more than Leonidas's Spartans - there were around 7000 Greeks.

I am aware of that. Did you think all my history is from cheesy movies? I was referring to the holding action, after the other Greeks left. Will clarify.

12. Wiki'ing "xyston" reveals it to be a cavalry lance; the infantry spear is the Dory, about 6-9 feet long. (Your picture also has a spear of about 8' rather than 12' ...).

Ahh, I remember seeing the Dory but I skipped over it; didn't sound Greek, and I was getting worn out. And lemme tellya, my man, have you ever tried to find exact pictures of 6 different spears? By the end I was typing in ANYTHING on google to get a picture of something close. I'm telling you it is not easy to talk about hastae, xystoi, zhubiin, etc. and try and give the reader NEW information about EACH ONE. I mean, how much variety is there in pointy sticks?! The "caetra" picture is actually a Viking something-or-other. The "barbarian" spearhead picture is actually African. I simply could not find pics of the real thing, so I got the closest ones I could find.

Try to find a perfect, documented, authentic photograph of an angon or framea. On google. Enjoy.

13. I'm fairly certain that the francisca comes from a much later period than the one you're talking about. Likewise, I'm not sure greataxes were at all common, if they were even used.

I am aware that the FRANSica was used by the FRANKS. But (a) it is within the time period that I covered (it would be in 200-400's AD) although not in the period I am focusing on, and (b) I needed to write about something, and the Germans didn't keep a whole lot of records of their axes. I basically wanted to show you that axes were used, but I had to actually say something more than, "Hey look, a few guys used axes." Also note that (although I only got this from one source) the Minoans used double axes, so at least somebody did. And the Celts used axes well before this time period.

14. Again, wiki'ing it, the falx *did* have a sharpened blade - it was not a point-only weapon. Again, look at your picture.

Didn't realize that. Thanks! will fix. But I still don't see how you would slash with the inside without the tip kinda blocking it... Also I did that partly to show how unique the falx was.

15. You mention leather armor ... yet if the Celts were such excellent metal-workers, why did they not use metal armor?

Why? Because I already wrote about mail armor, and mentioned that the Gauls developed it. And I wanted to write about one different type of armor for each section. Otherwise I would have nothing to write about! "Celtic armor: see lorica hamata, as there is nothing else to say about it." It just doesn't fly, you know? Therefore, it is not worth making a whole section for one sentence of material.

I had to make it unique, so I wrote about one kind of armor that was used, and left it to you to figure out that they used more than leather armor. Plus there are more armies than Gallic ones being considered in that section.

16. In the intro to "Middle Asian Weapons," you say that the skill and morale of the Hellenics let them overcome their more numerous and less well-trained Persian opponents. Setting aside whether that's true or not, you later make note that the bow was the primary weapon of the Persians. Comparing these two statements, would it not make more sense to say that the Persian equipment and style of battle was simply inferior to the Greek style in that location?

Perhaps, but I would still say that superior Greek equipment helped a great deal, because their armor and shield protected them from all those arrows. Even an arrow shot uphill can get stuck in stuff, you know.

17. Is it necessary to refer to the steppe tribes as "bizarre," and to state that they engaged in cannibalism, especially if you're not going to source it?

Well, I happen to believe that canniballism is bizarre. OK w/ you?

And if you want a reference you will have to give me like 2 weeks to find it in one of Tacitus' works. But I know that to be true. The Thracians were pretty weird too, btw. hehe ask if you wanna hear about it.

Oh, and if you are a Scythian, and offended, I apologize.

18. "The Amazons were a body of female warriors of Greek mythology, but NO DOUBT HAD A BASIS in actual history. "

Really.

Admittedly, that was a shaky conclusion drawn at the end of a long day. But, the way I figure is like this:

So Greek mythology talks about women warriors. Why would they come up with that unless they had heard of women warriors somewhere? I didn't say that female warriors ruled the ancient world, I said that there probably were some, and the Greeks heard about 'em! Take Boudicea of the Iceni, for instance.

All I meant was that there PROBABLY were women warriors in Siberia. OH WAIT! I SAID NO DOUBT!!!! OOOOOOPS. Okay, I will change that to PROBABLY. Fair 'nuf?
_________________________________________________________________________

Whew! Well, thanks Entropy Judge! These corrections will make it much better.

How can I +rep you? If we were on the .Org I would give you a balloon... You are the first person to give me such all-encompassing feedback. Much appreciated!

[Entropy Judge]

11. Thermopylae was held by more than Leonidas's Spartans - there were around 7000 Greeks.

I am aware of that. Did you think all my history is from cheesy movies? I was referring to the holding action, after the other Greeks left. Will clarify.

Even then there were still ~1000 Greeks with them. But I got you.

12. Wiki'ing "xyston" reveals it to be a cavalry lance; the infantry spear is the Dory, about 6-9 feet long. (Your picture also has a spear of about 8' rather than 12' ...).

Ahh, I remember seeing the Dory but I skipped over it; didn't sound Greek, and I was getting worn out. And lemme tellya, my man, have you ever tried to find exact pictures of 6 different spears? By the end I was typing in ANYTHING on google to get a picture of something close. I'm telling you it is not easy to talk about hastae, xystoi, zhubiin, etc. and try and give the reader NEW information about EACH ONE. I mean, how much variety is there in pointy sticks?! The "caetra" picture is actually a Viking something-or-other. The "barbarian" spearhead picture is actually African. I simply could not find pics of the real thing, so I got the closest ones I could find.

To be honest, if I were in your position, I'd do a "General" category with shields and spears, and maybe general armor (chain, scale, leather) and explain that they were used in various forms across the Mediterranean/Europe, with some images and/or names to differentiate them. After all, some things were fairly universal.

13. I'm fairly certain that the francisca comes from a much later period than the one you're talking about. Likewise, I'm not sure greataxes were at all common, if they were even used.

I am aware that the FRANSica was used by the FRANKS. But (a) it is within the time period that I covered (it would be in 200-400's AD) although not in the period I am focusing on, and (b) I needed to write about something, and the Germans didn't keep a whole lot of records of their axes. I basically wanted to show you that axes were used, but I had to actually say something more than, "Hey look, a few guys used axes." Also note that (although I only got this from one source) the Minoans used double axes, so at least somebody did. And the Celts used axes well before this time period.

RE: Francisca: Well, you said you were going to be focusing on the time around 280 BC, so I figured it would hold true for the weapons as well. Likewise the greataxe - I wasn't referring to axes in general, or even double-headed axes, but the great honking two-handers, which I don't think were in use (and especially not in any sort of frequency) until a similarly later period.

14. Again, wiki'ing it, the falx *did* have a sharpened blade - it was not a point-only weapon. Again, look at your picture.

Didn't realize that. Thanks! will fix. But I still don't see how you would slash with the inside without the tip kinda blocking it... Also I did that partly to show how unique the falx was.

Well, you'd really only need to the inside of the curve itself sharpened - just get some sort of semi-circular object and put it over someone's shoulder, or against their neck, and you'll see pretty much how much of the blade will need to be sharpened.

Perhaps, but I would still say that superior Greek equipment helped a great deal, because their armor and shield protected them from all those arrows. Even an arrow shot uphill can get stuck in stuff, you know.

... My point was that in the intro, you didn't make mention of equipment, which I would think had more to do with the Greek victory in those conditions than skill.

Well, I happen to believe that canniballism is bizarre. OK w/ you?

And if you want a reference you will have to give me like 2 weeks to find it in one of Tacitus' works. But I know that to be true. The Thracians were pretty weird too, btw. hehe ask if you wanna hear about it.

Oh, and if you are a Scythian, and offended, I apologize.

I grok
... bad of me, yes. Anyway, I don't particularly care if they were interesting or not, my point was that making that sort of claim in an authoritative work/voice without sourcing *in the text* can be worse than making similar stereotypical remarks about current subcultures.

How can I +rep you? If we were on the .Org I would give you a balloon... You are the first person to give me such all-encompassing feedback. Much appreciated!

Not a problem - you can't give Rep until you've gotten 25 posts and been active a week. FAQ is King



Thiu: Did you copy/paste the password? I'm just wondering if you could've mistyped it or something if you manually typed.

[Flavius Nevitta]

Wait, you don't mean spelling Pompey as "Gneius Pompius Magnus" do you? Cuz that's right AFAIK.

No it's not...check the spelling of his name again *hint hint*

[Ariovistus Maximus]

I'll bet Gneius is wrong isn't it? I never can remember how to spell that... Gnayis... Naius, Ginayis...

Thanks LC Cinna! I'm guessing it's Lucius Cornelius? Sounds familiar...

[littlestuif]

I'll bet Gneius is wrong isn't it? I never can remember how to spell that... Gnayis... Naius, Ginayis...

Thanks LC Cinna! I'm guessing it's Lucius Cornelius? Sounds familiar...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompey

Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus, even wiki spells it correctly. But it might be better to keep to the english names, in this case Pompey. In my experience people get completely confused when you use the name they have in their motherlanguage. For example: When I used the name Neapolis, my teacher (yes, they're dumb at my school) didn't know I was talking about Napels.

Good luck with your project. I like it already

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Was leather armour any effective at all, though? I suppose it couldn't even stop an arrow, much less a blade or a spear point.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Was leather armour any effective at all, though? I suppose it couldn't even stop an arrow, much less a blade or a spear point.

Leather hardened by boiling it in oil or wax (cuir bouilli) made effective armour. Though not as effective as iron or steel, obviously. Its main advantage was that it was effective, cheap and not exactly technically taxing to make.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

OK guys sorry. I went and dived into the Ethos, Mores, et Monastica forum.

I've hardly had time to look at the rest of the .net since!

But anyways I am thinkin' about sticking this on filefront to make it e-z.

And thanks again Entropy!!!! And TRG!!!!

Hmm, I kinda thought that my interpretation of the seax was a little too broad. What should I call it instead?

And yes, my pictures are not accurate.

Have you ever found an authentic angon with a google image search?

I can find a better pic of leather armor though.

Thanks guys!

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

And yes, my pictures are not accurate.

Have you ever found an authentic angon with a google image search?

Yes.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

I remember seeing that one but I didn't pay any attention to it. You are truly magnificent.

There appears to be a lull in the debate forum; maybe I can get some real work done.

[antaeus]

Was leather armour any effective at all, though? I suppose it couldn't even stop an arrow, much less a blade or a spear point.

the easiest way to get a feel for the strength of leather, is to get a good solid leather belt, fold it in half or if you're tough, fold it in three...

grab a kitchen knife, hold it over something solid but with a little give... like a pumpkin.. stab the folded leather with your knife..

i'd put money that you cant stab through the belt. you will however bruise the pumpkin.

disclaimer... i accept no responsibility for damaged belts, pumpkins or knives.

[EireEmerald]

the easiest way to get a feel for the strength of leather, is to get a good solid leather belt, fold it in half or if you're tough, fold it in three...

grab a kitchen knife, hold it over something solid but with a little give... like a pumpkin.. stab the folded leather with your knife..

i'd put money that you cant stab through the belt. you will however bruise the pumpkin.

disclaimer... i accept no responsibility for damaged belts, pumpkins or knives.

Lol. + Rep.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

Hey everybody the finished chapters of this study are now on filefront.com! No download trouble!

Fixes and Chapter 3 are coming.

[teh.frickin.pope]

Hey, one point of the Hoplon, you don't have to bend to cover your knees, you just have to straiten your arm down your side, I also doubt the cumbersomeness of it, as I've seen men wield 3 ft round shields with good agility.

Also, two handed axes don't have to have the massive crushing blows to be effective, as it can be used as a staff by striking with the base of the haft or just to hook an opponent's shield for spearmen to take advantage of.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

Excellent point with the axes. Thanks!

About the shield; it would be easy to do that if it was centergrip. I don't know how to go about it, so I will post a youtube video tomorrow that should explain it better than I did.