Impetuous discipline level

[Taiji]

Hi all

I would really like to know for certain that this 'impetuous' stat affects the battle AI.

So does anyone know if it does or not?

And if so, please state how you know.

Much thanks! (and +rep)

Taiji

[konny]

I would really like to know for certain that this 'impetuous' stat affects the battle AI.

I can tell you for certain that the attribute "impetous" does not affect the battle AI in a way. It improves the moral of the respective unit (regardless if human or AI), nothing more.

[redxavier]

Impetuous is indeed the fourth possible value under "Discipline", which according to the EDU deals with the response to morale "shocks", but I believe Taiji is referring to the side effect that impetuous units can also charge without orders. We know what this means for the human player, but what does it do for the AI?

[konny]

IWe know what this means for the human player,

nothing

but what does it do for the AI?

the same: nothing

[redxavier]

What are you talking about? It doesn't do nothing. An impetuous unit will charge without orders!

[konny]

In litteraly thousands of battles I have played with RTW and M2TW I have never, I repeat: never, seen an impetous unit charging without orders. The only units that charge without orders (and cannot be controled therefater) are those with the berserker attribute.

[alhoon]

In litteraly thousands of battles I have played with RTW and M2TW I have never, I repeat: never, seen an impetous unit charging without orders. The only units that charge without orders (and cannot be controled therefater) are those with the berserker attribute.

Really? I lost half a unit of teutonics in the following way:
moving (not running) by stakes to circle by the stakes and flank the archers...Teutonics just ignored me and charged on the stakes. </p> Also in many battles, I click "go here" placing my CWO unit near the enemy (usually the flanks). Instead some times (not rare) the CWO unit decides to pick a fight with the enemy by charging.Not to mention that when you move them towards the enemy walking some of them suddenly charge. Very annoying against spear walls

It lessens with general ability and experience. Gold teutonics and feudal very rarely do so.

[redxavier]

It is rare but I have seen it. I saw a Gaulish unit charging on its own in EBI recently. I was moving the unit to go around the battle and behind the enemy in order to attack from behind, but before they had got into position they charged and thus took the enemy in the flank instead. And this was a full charge, complete with the animation and sound; with no prior contact with the enemy. This leads me to suggest that it's quite particular about when it happens.

You are able to maintain control of them throughout though. It's just a question of them jumping the gun. Probably why most of the time it goes unnoticed. On occasions when I happen to catch it, I have actually stopped the unit mid-charge and called it back.

[konny]

The only occasions when I see units of mine attacking the enemy even though they had not been ordered to, is when they are so close to the enemy that, on manouvering, some soldiers come into contact with the enemy unit and so the entire unit starts fighting the enemy. But this has nothing to do with impetous and can happen to any unit.

When you say the occasion you saw it was during a flanking manouver, it might have been in fact something like that happening. In EB most Barbarian units are impetous, and in countless battles playing the Sweboz, Arverni and Casse, I have never seen any of them leaving the line to attack without orders.

[redxavier]

When you say the occasion you saw it was during a flanking manouver, it might have been in fact something like that happening.

No, the unit was depleted from prior battles so was small enough to maneouver without its flanks 'clipping' onto enemy units. Also, when some soldiers in a unit have come into contact with the enemy, that usually stops all movement and the rest then shuffle into the melee. It's rare for the unit to then charge, shouts and all, with its unengaged soldiers.

I think it's just very particular about when it happens, and that there must be factors that influence its probability, e.g., distance from enemy is close, the unit's already bloodied itself (or hasn't fought yet), lots movement close by enemy, the morale or fatigue of the enemy etc.

The thing is that I think I've seen it with AI units also but I'm not certain.

My first thought was that it would be impossible to gauge the difference between a 'valid' AI command to a unit to attack and a unit charging on its 'own' (it's both the AI after all). However, it may be possible to test its effects on the battle AI overall, i.e., by observing the integrity of the AI's formation throughout the battle.

Play a few custom battles against AI armies composed of varying amounts of impetuous units (all, 75%, 25%, 1 unit etc.), using the same battle AI and starting formation, and see what happens.

[Taiji]

I know that player units will charge without orders, I've seen it plenty of times so for me that isn't the issue. The thing is that I think I've seen it with AI units also but I'm not certain.

I know also that it affects morale shocks but I haven't tested whether it is better than disciplined for that purpose... I guess I should really

Or maybe someone knows already?

[SSJPabs]

I've had it happen with cavalry. I ordered them to walk around to the side but instead they charged forward--and into spears. They were militia spears so it wasn't too bad but still.

[Taiji]

redxavier, it's a good idea to test it that way (although you'd need more than a few) but I'm hoping someone has tested it already - I have plenty of other things to be getting on with. Thanks for trying to help

[Taiji]

Thats very interesting what you say about general ability and experience, Alhoon. Hadn't occured to me at all... +rep

[alhoon]

Thanks!

[Renown]

FYI Impetuous DOES affect your units attacking without orders the nearest unit.

Some units - depending on their discipline level are EASIER to control - I can tell you this for certain as I've been fooling around on the SAME EXACT BATTLE. Its not always apparent but on the micro level it is. For defending there is no difference. In attacking there is no difference. It's really about CHANGING targets. IF they get engaged with a specific target, they are more or less likely to stay engaged with that target then move and attack. This happens often with units without impetous but are easier to disengage.

As far as affecting the AI... its impossible to tell, I doubt it - the AI processes tons of calculations quickly and if it did ignore the AI it's probably just reattack.

[konny]

It's really about CHANGING targets. IF they get engaged with a specific target, they are more or less likely to stay engaged with that target then move and attack. This happens often with units without impetous but are easier to disengage.

Units disobeying orders to disengage is a known problem in M2TW. When you say this is the result of impetous discipline, let's take it for that, even though it happens to units of any level of discipline, as you said too. That way I would rather take it as a bug than a feature.

Regardless what it is, it is not the looked for "charging without orders". As such I would expect impetous units that are lined up to suddenly start running when the enemy gets close. And that is a behaviour I cannot recall to have ever seen in a RTW or M2TW battle.