High Elves basic unit appearance

[Vaul]

Hi all, I'm new here but I'm a veteran of TW games as well as LOTR lore I must say that your mod is truly a work of art, I can speak for a (moderately sized) group of people who have been waiting for something like this a long...long time Thank you, if I had the funding I would build you a great monument, so all could witness your power and wisdom...

However...


The elven infantry, I must say, is disappointing to say in the least... I would like to offer some lore-based insight to their appearance (Silmarillion being top of the list)... Firstly, they're members of the Noldor nation, and to make short use of that fact - they are a nation who used to slaughter Balrogs by the legions... In all honesty, they are about as militaristic as an elf can get!
Secondly, it is entirely probable that amongst the Noldor still living in Middle Earth in the Third Age that there are many living individuals who not only communed with Feanor himself and witnessed the glorious wars of old (those with the legions of Balrogs), but might have actually seen the white armies of Valinor headed by the Valar, and the fall of Morgoth, taking the continent of Beleriand with him! And other almost certainly remember their life in Gondolin, etc...
I need not verifiy these conclusions with quotes, everybody minimally versed in Silmarillion will confirm the logic behind it.

And so, baring that in mind - would those individals REALLY allow their family members to march into war with a wooden shield?! (we don't know how elven families are structured, but it's safe to assume that they care about each other's wellbeing, being mammals at the least )

I would like to back that argument with another approach to the "Noldor state of mind", or "Noldor culture" if you will... They are a race of immortal beings, many are millenia old... It is established that they are higly sentimental and proud creatures, Elrond keeps the shard of Narsil with reverance, Galadriel offers ancient Noldorin blades to the Hobbits etc. (I'm using movie references because visual stimuli are arguably more effective, forgive the tactic ), they keep their traditions and history alive for countless millenia... It is truly beyond reason that any commonly raised Noldor elf would agree to risk his eternal lifespan and seperate himslef from his glorious heritage by putting on a piece of colorfull cloth and a wooden shield!

I KNOW there is no lore to support the current look of the elven basic infantry (nor any to support otherwise, but at least we're past the lore-card)... I KNOW that makers of this mod are masters of megalomania (for which they have my eternal gratitude ) and artists to say in the least... And I almost certainly know that anyone who has read the Silmarillion as many times as I have must agree that the appearance of the elven low tier units is illogical at best. It simply does not fit the profile of the culture, that being a proud and ancient race of master smiths and mighty warriors, whose equipment and tactics claimed millions of orc scum over the ages ...

Looking at the Sylvan elves, however, I have no objection whatsoever. I think it perfectly fits their culture profile, they are truly a far cry from the Valinor-originating Noldor, who have been looking in the eye of Morgoth for centuries etc...

The Eldar units are a masterpiece, I'll say nothing further, my aforementioned arguments should be quite representastive of how the eldar appearance fits their culture perfectly...

At this point I must apologize for the long post, I'm a student of law, and we tend to leave no sword unsheathed... And it's my first one.
I'm aware that after mentioning the eldar units someone will pop-up and say that I have answered my own question, that the elves i've mentioned are sufficiently represented already. But I disagree. To think that there is a low class of poor, undereducated and barely trained elf is preposterous form the start. I'm not touching the game dynamics or mechanisms, I respect the modding tam's feel for balance and realism battle-wise, I'm simply arguing that their appearance is simply not satisfactory considering the lore and the logic therein.

I hope you'll agree and judge my criticism not too harshly... I am a huge fan of this mod, belive you me!

cheers

[Danny_K_1]

Damn lol

Well, welcome to the forums!

I don't really know how to answer but how would you have the basic infantry looking?

[botjer]

you can view the lower tier units as the citizens setting up an unprepared defense, doing any advanced military actions with these guys is a bit hard, and you are short of cash.
i dont have much problem with them really

[HUtH]

Yes, I agree with you in 100%. I think that low tier troops were implemented because of game balance. Without them that'd be only Eldar, so High Elves would be imba. It could be solved by reducing amount of troops in unit and increasing defence, but the problem is game engine in battle, even very best unit has no chance in battle against huge units. They would be surrounded and cut out. Hmm maybe very long waiting for availability of unit.. like 10 turns And army spawnes during the siege for some chance to defend

There are lot of problems with elves in TATW Units, economy, immortality...

[Jean=A=Luc]

Basic unit obviously aren't veterans of First Age or even Second Age wars.

[Mithrandir]

Basic units aren't even Noldor.

[Kinniken]

No, but I do agree with the original poster that it's hard to imagine High Elves going into battle with such bad equipment. While for many other factions getting good weapons and armour is a big problems, for Elves it's manpower, and they wouldn't waste it by sending troops out with wooden shields. It doesn't make any sense lore-wise. However, as far as the gameplay is concerned, it's hard to see how you could have a faction with nothing but elite units.

[maxi90]

no, but maybe the problem could be solved by ading chainmail to the basic swordsmen, and better shields?

[Jean=A=Luc]

The light swordsmen already have chainmail iirc.

[Vaul]

The light swordsmen already have chainmail iirc.

indeed... around their ankles...


The High Elves have the smallest choice of units, no cavalry, before you get to the high tier units you have to make due with 2 types of units (sword and bow)... a very limited race of people - for medieval standards... the modding team has done a superb job of balancing these facts with their strength and whatever other values are considered crucial in the modder mind... but still, those limitations are very obvious to anyone who has played MTW for years, it simply lacks diversity... HOWEVER the Elves are still a favorite choice! And it's no coincidence, everyone who's read Tolkien has surely remaind in awe, his work created the "high elf" stereotype in the first place! A noble and pure race of immortal creatures who value peace and order, unparalleled in military organisation as well as aesthetics... You've all seen it, you can't even say the words "High Elf" without imagining cohorts of perfectly positioned armoured soldiers...


I've written a lot of words so far, but my argument could be expressed simply with the following:

considering all the conclusions about Tolkien lore as well as every other "High Elf" sterotype (all of which originated form Tolkien) - the high elven basic units are UGLY!



I hope I've made myself clear about how much I admire your work on this, and that my straigtforwardness about this particular issue will not offend anyone.



And I simply must repeat one more thing - I've not commented on any ingame mechanical issue considering unit strength or whatever within that context - simply an issue of aesthetics.

[maxi90]

they do? i haven´t played with the elves yet, nor i have figth against them.

[MaxMazi]

they do? i haven´t played with the elves yet, nor i have figth against them.

Yes, they have:

[Seleukos_I.]

Secondly, it is entirely probable that amongst the Noldor still living in Middle Earth in the Third Age that there are many living individuals who not only communed with Feanor himself and witnessed the glorious wars of old (those with the legions of Balrogs), but might have actually seen the white armies of Valinor headed by the Valar, and the fall of Morgoth, taking the continent of Beleriand with him! And other almost certainly remember their life in Gondolin, etc...

as far as i know only galadriel still lived but the rest of the noldor which came from the west were all dead

[Oddball_E8]

maby you could just have two or even three unit sizes?

so they always have their elite troops... but at the start, and in smaller settlements, only a few muster up to fight...

so the unit sizes would dictate the tier of troops... ie. tier 1 would be only 60 men per unit whilst tier 3 would be 150 or something like that.

i think that could work out actually. also, they could be supported by local human troops, but only in settlements that arent elvish from the start (since i doubt the elves would kill off the entire human population if they conquer or otherwise take over a non-human settlement).
maby it could even be regional... that way you could ensure they could only recruit human militia from "good" settlements.

[Hellenikon]

I think they are fine as they are. Not every elf is a warrior, the basic unit can represent just gardeners, singers, writers (all those silly professions elves have) that in time of need they arm themselves and march to war. Heavy equiped unit would have better shields, but those militia units could only got what they have. And not every elf have powerful heirlooms of magnificent old weapons used in the first age.

[Incontinenta Buttox]

Good points make in the OP. But there has to be a balance. We can't just have the Elves starting a campaign with a full range of warriors in armour of the elder days.

To be honest. At the end of the third age there were very very few high-elves left who had seen the light of the trees. Even Elrond was born at the end of the first age. I don't believe the high-elves had any sort of organised military at all by the end of the third age.

The only true Eldar I can think of were Galadriel, and Glorfindel. And Frodo met some when he fled the shire.

[Vaul]

Good points make in the OP. But there has to be a balance. We can't just have the Elves starting a campaign with a full range of warriors in armour of the elder days.

To be honest. At the end of the third age there were very very few high-elves left who had seen the light of the trees.

I've chosen your post to quote because it pretty much summs up several other posts...

Firstly, I haven't even commented on balance, or anything to do with any other value other then unit appearance.

To back this up - look at the Gondor regular units, such as Gondor infantry and spearmen... They look pretty well armoured - in fact even more so than the eldar units (eldar have considerably more exposed necks for instance, etc... irrevelant). BUT they are obviously less powerful blabla - this is a question of game mechanims and my post has nothing to do with it... I think this should be a sufficient example how unit appearance doesn't have to be connected to unit power or whatever.

Secondly - it isn't really relevant if they are actually THOSE ancient Noldor who marched with Feanor... It's the fact that they call themselves the High Elves (or if you want - the modding team calls them that), they consider the Noldor to be their ancestors, they perpetuate their culture etc... This alone should guarantee a simmilar definition of aesthetics as well as military philosophy...

This argument should be separated form lore to the extent that some of the modders (or whoever represents authority on the forums) have ALREADY said that this is a total war game and that certain consessions must be made to the MTw setting - that being TOTAL WAR

So let's think about this logically - if the HIGH ELVES should recognize the necessity to form a regular army (or even a permament security force!) in a world consumed by war (this basic game concept of MTW already corrupts Tolkien lore) - can we really say that they would go to war with wooden shields?

I realize that years of Medieval TW has taught us to look at militia (or whatever low tier) units as arrow fodder, with minimal equipment... but the high elves as well? Immortal creatures unparalleled in beauty and wisdom, a proud nation that perpetuates an ancient culture and has never been matched in combat, or in anything else for that matter... seriously?

[rsslcs]

Based on my assumptions, the elves ARE all elite units, although very few in number, so maybe lower tier units could be mercenaries from other countries, or maybe some men could live there? Anyway, my idea of them is that the elves have limited attack ability: they are few in number. Their troops take a long time to recruit, but once they are recruited, they are some of the best in-game.

[MadTiest]

This is Total War, everybody has to do their part. During the second world war guns had been around for quite some time, so it's hard to understand a government would sent unarmed people into combat, yet the Russians did this. During Total War you can't afford to only use veterans and properly equipped troops, you have to throw everything you've got at the enemy: your brothers, your sisters, your cats, your dogs, your grandma. And hope the enemy gets tired of killing by the time they reach you (Sun Tzu, paraphrased slightly)

That said, I guess it doesn't really make sense for elfs to risk immortal life for a rebel settlement without any strategic importance whatsoever. But this is a game. And I've gotten a very strong impression that KK values gameplay and balance. He is most definately not going to turn every elf unit into an extremely expensive killing machine.

[Kinniken]

This is Total War, everybody has to do their part. During the second world war guns had been around for quite some time, so it's hard to understand a government would sent unarmed people into combat, yet the Russians did this.

Somehow I have troubles imagining Elrond and Stalin having similar attitudes to how disposable their subjects are