Just supposing a wizard/God made it that way. Would the block get wedged inside of it like a plug?
Dux Limitis
What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
Just supposing a wizard/God made it that way. Would the block get wedged inside of it like a plug?
love your noggin
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
If it was a real object then, as it spiraled toward the Black Hole, it would break up into a disc of plasma. Some of it would be ejected, some would be converted to radiation and the rest would disappear through the event horizon never to be seen again.
You will probably object to this saying the block is indestructible, but there is not such thing known to mankind, everything is made of elementary particles and this is what anything approaching a Black Hole is reduced to.
Praefectus
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
Not possible?
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Dux Limitis
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
Lets just say the bonds between the atoms forming the block can't be separated even if an infinite amount of energy was applied to it.
love your noggin
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
Then your block assumes an orbit around the Black Hole. If it ever intersected with the singularity then I don't think it is possible to say what would happen, since we don't know what the laws of physics might be at a singularity (because it involves infinities: infinite gravity at an infinitely small point).Originally Posted by Helm
We don't even know if singularities actually exist, they are a mathematical concept, it might be that when gravity becomes sufficiently strong there is a phase change to some new set of physical laws we don't know anything about.
Maybe God says: "OK, that's enough of that", folds up the Universe and puts it back in the toy cupboard.
Centenarius
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
Not possible, the block would never reach the center, and thus would never need to intersect due to time dilation.
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Libertus
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
It would be destroyed thus proving it is not indestructable at all.
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Former Chief Technician
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
If the block cannot be indestructible, the question doesn't make sense and that answer is as wrong as any other.
Dux Limitis
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
In this case the block is being fired directly into the hole itself though. But if the singularity of a black hole has infinite properties then would that mean an infinitely indestructable concrete block would be physically possible as well?
Primicerius
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
it would prove to be very destructable... that's for sure.
Senator
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
jesus would come back
Former Chief Technician
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
If the block had mass, but the particles somehow had infinite binding force, the block would move so that its center of mass is aligned with the singularity of the black hole, and then it would stop. The overall force on the block would then be zero. The force exerted on the outer particles would be transferred (via the unrealistically strong binding force) to the particles on the opposite side, and so it would cancel.
In the case of a real block and a typical black hole, the inward force on the outermost particles would greatly exceed the force of the inner particles pushing them out, so the block would crumble into its elementary particles if put in this position. When you get that close to a black hole, the difference in force it exerts on the further and closer particles is greater than any other force in the universe.
Gravity is the only fundamental force that's effectively unbounded in magnitude. On the one hand, nuclear forces are too short-range to add up much. On the other hand, electromagnetic forces are self-defeating: they aren't large unless you have a large accumulation of net charge, but by their nature they'll prevent large accumulations of net charge from building up anywhere. So nothing is going to really withstand your average black hole if it gets close.
The question isn't quite as silly as it might seem, for two reasons. First, black holes don't technically have to be enormous. In principle, it might be possible to create a very small black hole (it may be happening at the LHC quite soon!). Then ordinary objects would be strong enough to not get damaged.
Second of all, there aren't any opposing infinite quantities here. Although black holes are infinitely dense (maybe), they have finite mass, so they exert finite gravitational force unless you actually land inside them. Since I assumed your block was made of point particles, as all known matter is, the probability of any particle actually landing inside the singularity is zero. As long as nothing's in the black hole, only finite forces are being exerted, and so the answer is clear: the infinitely strong object wins.
I should warn you, though, that a lot of questions like this have no meaningful answer. It's like asking: what happens if an irresistible force is applied to an immovable block? The answer is: that's a stupid question and there's no reasonable answer. If you're postulating a universe in which the laws of physics are different, anything could happen. Make up some answer involving flying pink elephants if you like: it's not going to be any more counterfactual than any other answer.
love your noggin
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
Regarding very small black holes, we might expect them not to last long enough to interact with our infinitely strong block since they should evaporate due to Hawking radiation.
I am curious about whether the block would be expected to stop when its centre of mass coincides with the singularity. Doesn't its momentum carry it into orbit? Or does the existence of the infinite binding force break the conservation law?
Campidoctor
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
there's only one thing that's sure and that's that we wouldn't be able to know what happend with.
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Former Chief Technician
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
Slightly larger black holes could be envisioned in principle, though. You just need a bunch of mass packed into its Schwarzschild radius. The only usual way this happens is if a sufficiently large star collapses, or maybe in particle accelerators, but it's conceivable that very sophisticated devices could apply enough force to get intermediate masses to become more or less stable black holes. At least as far as I know.
The momentum is just transferred to the black hole until the velocities become equal, as with any inelastic collision. It can't possibly be carried into orbit: by the time it hits the singularity of a usual-size dead-star black hole, it will be well inside the event horizon.
Thinking about it a bit more, I'm not sure my picture is correct. It would be right in the Newtonian view of things, but you'd really need general relativity to say what happens near a black hole, and I don't know any of that. For black holes without general relativity, I guess there is no event horizon: gravity doesn't affect photons, so light would always be able to escape. So my answer is probably about right, but take it with a grain of salt.
I guess if we accept the basic fact that you can't actually leave the event horizon once you've entered, my view becomes problematic. What if you have a very large object, larger in all dimensions than the radius of the event horizon? For its center of mass to reach the singularity, you'd have to have part of it enter and then leave the event horizon. Unless there are weird issues with space-time distortion here, of course, which is entirely possible.
I don't know enough about this. I should go read up on it sometime. A year from now I should know a lot more about partial differential equations, maybe I could tackle general relativity in my spare time eventually.
Why do you say that?
Campidoctor
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
Because it is sort of the definition of a black hole that nothing can get out of it so no information either so we wouldn't be able to observe what happens in there.
That's why it's impossible to actually see a black hole, you can only observe it indirectly
'I'll be damned ' Marcellus Wallis
Former Chief Technician
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
If the black hole hosted a wormhole (they've never been proven to exist), then it could end up in a different part of the universe. "Another universe", probably not.
Wrong. It is universally agreed that any physical object drawn into a black hole will be ripped into its component particles as it nears the singularity. It is marginally, hypothetically possible that your particles will then pass through a wormhole or something in some cases, but you definitely won't be around to experience it. Anything else is pure sci-fi nonsense.
We have a pretty good idea of what should be happening in a black hole until you get near the singularity, AFAIK. There's no conceivable reason for any solid object to not get ripped to shreds well before you have to worry about quantum gravity and so on.
That's not the definition, just a consequence of the physics. And it's been believed to be false for quite some time. Hawking radiation is generally accepted to be likely to occur, and its existence may be confirmed by observations in the nearish future.
Even if information couldn't be transmitted out of the black hole, that doesn't mean we can't predict what will happen inside. It just means we wouldn't be able to check it ourselves without going there. The nice thing about theory is that you can state specific facts without having to verify each and every one separately: they're true as long as the theory is true.
quaeri, si sapis
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
What happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object?
"Goes around it, i'd say"
A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.
A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."
Dux Limitis
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
I don't suppose there's a chance of the block ending up in a different universe or something of that nature?
Triggering
Re: What would happen if you fired an entirely indestructible block of concrete into a black hole?
If its a Disney movie, you go to hell.
Last edited by Phier; May 13, 2009 at 09:33 PM.
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