Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

[Oldgamer]

My friends ... including Justinian, whom I've always been an on-line friend of ... it all boils down to one simple fact. Israel is the reality on the ground. It will continue to be the reality on the ground until it either gives in to the pressure of the United States (I remember Clinton and Wye River), or others. "Others" will require a successful war, and Israel is a nuclear power.

Israel is the reality on the ground.

@Bovril
I honestly haven't met someone who is on the Left, with the exception of Sen. Joe Lieberman, who isn't disgusted with his own culture and gushing with praise for every dictator on the planet, in the last 20 years. Go to any university and talk to them.

My only hope is that as the Leftists leave academia, get into real jobs, and have families, they will gain a stake in the nation's future, and change some of their views.

[Justinian]

My friends ... including Justinian, whom I've always been an on-line friend of ...

Thanks. I just felt your post was out there and wanted to have some fun with it.

it all boils down to one simple fact. Israel is the reality on the ground. It will continue to be the reality on the ground until it either gives in to the pressure of the United States (I remember Clinton and Wye River), or others. "Others" will require a successful war, and Israel is a nuclear power.

Israel is the reality on the ground.

I totally agree with you. Look at me, a leftist who supports Israel's existence. Were it 1947 I would argue against the resolution to create the state because it would create political instability. But it's there now and we need to progress, not regress.

And according to your logic that the Palestinians should accept peace, no, we should give the USA back to the British, the American Colonists should have just accepted British Rule.

No -- my logic is that advocating that Palestinians have the freedoms they had before the creation of the Israeli state is advocating them to have no more freedom than they do now, just a different overlord. This is as ridiculous as saying that the USA should go back to being under British rule because it their revolution was illegal.

All 'revolutions' are illegal -- but Israel's wasn't a revolution and was UN sanctioned. No, Palestinians don't have to accept Israeli rule -- but the key difference is, America won their war for independence. There is no chance of Palestine winning theirs, and I'd rather not see thousands of dead Palestinians if it can be avoided.

[uos_spo6]

All 'revolutions' are illegal -- but Israel's wasn't a revolution and was UN sanctioned. No, Palestinians don't have to accept Israeli rule -- but the key difference is, America won their war for independence. There is no chance of Palestine winning theirs, and I'd rather not see thousands of dead Palestinians if it can be avoided.

UN sanctions must have meant a little more back then than they do now. And yes, Palestinians lost/are losing their war for independence. They would get a marginal amount of it if they accept a peace and two state solution, but if I was a proud Palestinian peace wouldn't be enough for me.

I'm not Palestinian though so, *shrug* whatever. Just arguing my point.

Are you saying that the Palestinians should give in to peace because their war is unwinnable to preserve their people? Isn't that what the Native Americans did, where are they at now? A continuing policy of appeasement towards the belligerent party? Thats kind of how WWII started out isn't it?

[Oldgamer]

I totally agree with you. Look at me, a leftist who supports Israel's existence. Were it 1947 I would argue against the resolution to create the state because it would create political instability. But it's there now and we need to progress, not regress.

I agree with you, on this.

Also, to everyone reading, I've been around too many people "sitting at the feet of the master", listening to what I say without criticism for too long (it's a heady thing). That's why I came back here (I never really left), to hone some of my arguments. I'll go over the top, sometimes. When I do, I know that I'll be called on it, and I do appreciate that.

[Bovril]

@Bovril
I honestly haven't met someone who is on the Left, with the exception of Sen. Joe Lieberman, who isn't disgusted with his own culture and gushing with praise for every dictator on the planet, in the last 20 years. Go to any university and talk to them.

My only hope is that as the Leftists leave academia, get into real jobs, and have families, they will gain a stake in the nation's future, and change some of their views.

I guess my experience of the left is very different to yours. I hang around with Quakers and the like more than the 'orthodox' Marxist crowd. And I read Fromm and Kropotkin rather than Lenin and Mao. I think the kind of people you are talking about, the kind of people who were a big part of the New Left in the US and to a lesser extent the UK in the 60s and 70s, have in many cases done as you hoped they would. There are certainly some famous examples of it: Hitchens and Horowitz spring instantly to mind. There's also what Rorty refers to this as the 'Foucauldian left'. People who sit in their offices dreaming of the day when we all learn to read texts properly and will become saints. Obviously whether they exist or not matters little either way. But I don't think the old left, built around trade unions, equality movements and anti-war activism is ever going to go away. I certainly hope it won't. The world needs its Gandhis, Martin Luther Kings, Eugine Debbses, Emiline Pankhursts and so on.

As I read through even anarchist online periodicals, it always strikes me that there are authoritarians and dogmatists all over the left to some extent. But that's just humanity for you. I share Erich Fromm's hope that we can start having honest discussion between people who care about other humans (humanists, if you like, but without the specific philosophical conotations of the term) rather than merely drawing up lines according to dogma and running with them. It saddens me to here people discussing international relations, for example, having read a lot more about the technical specifications of weapons than the stories of war surgeons who deal with their effects. And that is something that one finds all over the political spectrum.

[eggthief]

Kinda, you can't just tell 7 million people to leave their country so it's better to look to the future and find a solution that suites both. IMO this is a two state solution, but again I don't think this could work as long as Hamas is still there, who thinks that they can wipe out all jews especially seeing as every dead Israeli results in a 100 death Palestinians.

There's nothing wrong with being left and for Israel right? I know enough people who are like this, but then again I'm afraid that more than 9 out of 10 people doesn't know enough or is missinformed by fairy tales to make a clear judgement about who's right and who's wrong, including myself that is.

[Justinian]

There's nothing wrong with being left and for Israel right? I know enough people who are like this, but then again I'm afraid that more than 9 out of 10 people doesn't know enough or is missinformed by fairy tales to make a clear judgement about who's right and who's wrong, including myself that is.

Of course not, OG's post just seemed to suggest that all liberals hate Israel...

[Phier]

Of course not, OG's post just seemed to suggest that all liberals hate Israel...

In my experience this is more true than false.

Saying all liberals hate Israel is wrong, but saying many liberals are pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli is true.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The march began in Hyde Park, where Speakers’ Corner was turned into a sea of Palestinian flags and banners condemning Israel, before making its way to Kensington Gardens. There were scuffles outside the Israeli embassy as the march passed by the gates leading to its entrance.

Now I tend to see this sort of thing only in the left wing protest crowd, but it seems you can't have a left wing rally without it.

[eggthief]

Well to be honest and without any kind of racism, just about every Palestina supporter is acting like a 5 year old here, their posts are getting removed on sight now that the moderators have shown up. And can you really call people who agree on a two state option, anti-palestine? It's not like they look down upon them.

[uos_spo6]

Well to be honest and without any kind of racism, just about every Palestina supporter is acting like a 5 year old here, their posts are getting removed on sight now that the moderators have shown up. And to be honest, can you really call people who agree on a two state option, anti-palestine? It's not like they look down upon them.

I'm just saying not every person in a defeated group is going to lay down and accept peace. That is the aspect of the Palestinian plight I respect them for. They are in a fight they know they can't win but they continue to fight anyway for the sake of resisting.

Much the same for Muslims who blow themselves up. They take innocent lives with them and it is tragic and disgusting, and I don't want to use the term respect because god knows I'll be crucified for saying I respect a suicide bomber, and no I don't respect the entireity of their all out act. . . but you have to feel something in terms of bewilderment and awe that someone is willing to do that. These peoples faith and convictions are so strong they go to these lengths.

Granted I think muslim extremists should mirror their Buddhist brothers through self immolation and just blow themselves up instead of doing it in a crowd of people. It's still a powerful powerful thing.

Crazy world out there.

[Visna]

Visna and Justinian, I wonder if you guys realize how much you are arguing my own point against Israel at this juncture.

I'm not sure I realize that, no. But please tell me, because so far I've only been in favour of a two-states solution.

And Visna, you speak of peace from the Israeli perspective. Their state is established, they are "entrenched", they have stablity, they have infrastructure, they have a well preserved culture. From the Palestinian point, who have none of these things except what lingers of their culture, it is not an acceptable peace to make.

Much of blame for the Palestinian harships in Gaza can be put on the shoulders of Hamas. The election of Hamas was nothing short of a disaster. For everybody.

You guys just have no capacity to think outside of yourselves. You'd probably take opposing view points to similar subjects relating to war and peace. I guess the US and allies should just make peace with the Taliban, we can buy them off with something if we really tried. Sri Lanka nationalists should just back off on the Tamils. etc. All for the sake of preventing death. You want peace in this situation because you say it will stop the killing, maybe fighting for their cause, however much you disagree with it, means more to some of them than simply staying alive.

What does the situation in Sri Lanka and Afghanistan have to do with this?

Give them 24hour news cycles, nintendo DSs, fashion designer clothing and txt msging. Maybe then the Palestinians will be disctracted enough from their plight to acquiesce to their conquerors.

Many already do. The ones in East Jerusalem and the West Bank are not living in some permanently impoverished state. Gaza is another deal, though, which can turn into making this discussion more complicated than it already is.

Sorry that I'm the only one here atm speaking out against five or six other people. I'm feeling like a Palestinian in Gaza right now

It takes courage and backbone to stand up for your opinions. Doesn't make your opinions right, though.

[uos_spo6]

the thread is entitled. . "Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict"

So as I can digest, everything from the Koran and Torah, to 1920s demographics, to the British Mandate and Joshua's armies murdering entire cities of people, to the attrocities commited by Hamas in the name of palestinian nationalism to the atrocities commited by the Irgun and other jewish underground groups is pertitnent to the discussion.

As it stands now, isn't it safe to say that this situation in Palestine has gone from finding a home for the Jewish people to feel safe (which how the hell anyone perceived the middle east to be a safe place for jews is beyond my ability to consider) to an all out Religious and Ethnic War? And really, did anyone expect anything less? We're talking about the middle east, muslims and jews living next to one another. I just can't imagine why its not working out .

[uos_spo6]

Visna, you said this. . .

"Who hasn't? I mean, if we go back far enough, can you name me a single country whose inhabitants' ancestors did not use some form of violence to gain that land? Jews have been both conquerors and conquered, sent to far away lands countless of times, and yet there has always been a connection on some level with the area now known as Israel." . . and then some. .

by stating that you were proving my point, I meant you were affirming the fact that there's nothing wrong with the Palestinians choosing to resist rather than peace, since conquest has gone on all throughout history. They're just trying to conquer it back. Albeit fruitlessly, but it's not like they have tanks and planes to fight with.

[Visna]

Visna, you said this. . .

"Who hasn't? I mean, if we go back far enough, can you name me a single country whose inhabitants' ancestors did not use some form of violence to gain that land? Jews have been both conquerors and conquered, sent to far away lands countless of times, and yet there has always been a connection on some level with the area now known as Israel." . . and then some. .

by stating that you were proving my point, I meant you were affirming the fact that there's nothing wrong with the Palestinians choosing to resist rather than peace, since conquest has gone on all throughout history. They're just trying to conquer it back. Albeit fruitlessly, but it's not like they have tanks and planes to fight with.

I don't think it's "wrong" of the Palestinians to resist. I think it's foolish and counter productive, but not "wrong". And I'm afraid that their plight is being used by others in the region, they're simply pawns to be played and, when "necessary", sacrificed. Can you imagine what would happen to the various leaders if their people suddenly begin to look inwards, instead of focusing on an external enemy? Many Arab countries have an interest in keeping the conflict going. Perhaps some Israeli politicians do as well. But the point is that there are more than enough nutters on both sides to keep this hijacked and diverted from the agenda which would suit by far the most people who are actually involved the best. A viable Palestinian state and security for Israel.

[uos_spo6]

I don't think it's "wrong" of the Palestinians to resist. I think it's foolish and counter productive, but not "wrong". And I'm afraid that their plight is being used by others in the region, they're simply pawns to be played and, when "necessary", sacrificed. Can you imagine what would happen to the various leaders if their people suddenly begin to look inwards, instead of focusing on an external enemy? Many Arab countries have an interest in keeping the conflict going. Perhaps some Israeli politicians do as well. But the point is that there are more than enough nutters on both sides to keep this hijacked and diverted from the agenda which would suit by far the most people who are actually involved the best. A viable Palestinian state and security for Israel.

I'll agree that the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict is used as a proxy for the greater Arab-Israeli Conflict but that only seems natural given the Jewish people are outsiders compared to the rest of the region. There's no doubt in my mind however that if the Israelis weren't there, the Arabs/Muslim world would be fighting each other because all you have to do to know that is look in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq. Even the dissidents in Saudi Arabia and wherever else.

All I'm saying is I can understand the Palestinians motives and state of mind. They go too far at times by many standards to carry on their struggle and both sides share culpability (sp?) for the continuing conflict, but there's no mystery as to why there is conflict to begin with IMNSHO. It's because establishing the Jewish state of Israel in Palestine was the wrong thing to do. You can say, "Yeah but its done and too late to go back so don't even bother mentioning that please." . . .but I don't think you can have an honest conversation about the ordeal without giving that little factor a bit of attention.

[eggthief]

Comparing the situation with a underexplained US version is one thing, comparing it with a Mexican child goes a bit to far.

[uos_spo6]

Comparing the situation with a underexplained US version is one thing, comparing it with a Mexican child goes a bit to far.

If I wanted to go a bit too far I'd tell the Volkswagen + Ashtray joke, but thats more crude than a Martin Luther King joke on MLK day so I'll resist the temptation to launch a broad offensive campaign aimed solely at instigating unrest because I'm not really a hateful bigotted person, I just find people getting offended and the often deep hippocrisy of it entertaining.

[eggthief]

But the problem is, would Palestines ever agree on a two state solution? Meaning, without using new ground as a base to attack Israel further.

[Каие]

But the problem is, would Palestines ever agree on a two state solution? Meaning, without using new ground as a base to attack Israel further.

They did back in 1993. At the moment it;s actually the new Israeli government which is refusing to accept a 2 state solution.

[Bovril]

But the problem is, would Palestines ever agree on a two state solution?

Does it matter? They don't agree to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, but they evidently can't do much about that.
Let's face it, normal people don't care much about international affairs untill their leaders stir them up to do think they are under threat, with the exception of when they really are obviously under threat in a very tangible way. The Palestinian population is under daily pressure of various sorts from Israel. When this ends, so will most of the intensity of Palestinian animosity. Only a comitment to de-escalation is going to achieve results, and to be honest, I think only the government of Israel has the power to make a big step in that direction.