Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

[b_133]

If I can admit that my country was founded on the raping of another people, The United States of America / Native American Indian Tribes, and be honest with myself about it than why can't the Israelis and their supporters do the same? Too soon?

You're sig banner says "Against Terrorisim" "Israel Supporter"


Is this like a vegan who occassionally has a steak?

That answers your question Mrcrusty?

While I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, why does every single Israeli/Palestinian thread turn into a massive dick waving contest between pro-Israelis and pro-Palestinians?

[Gromovnik]

I thought it was a common knowledge that the vast majority of population in arabic speaking countries today (outside of Arabia) are not the descendants of a relatively small number of Arab conquerors, but mostly descendants of pre-arabic populations.

[eggthief]

And the Torah wasn't written with the intention of murdering people because they are different and violating women's rights.

Excuse me for the off topicness, best if we leave both the Torah and Quran out of this.

[uos_spo6]

And the Torah wasn't written with the intention of murdering people because they are different and violating women's rights.

Excuse me for the off topicness, best if we leave both the Torah and Quran out of this.

Well now that we've ruled out any hope for an unbiased opinion out of this gentlemen please excuse him from the discussion and continue.

And if the thread is about understanding the Israeli Arab conflict, in all aspects, how are you going to leave out the Koran and Torah? And logically, the Torah can't have any hate against Muslims in it, it was written a thousand or more years before they existed!

Israel is penning that chapter, it's just being logged in the history books as opposing to expanding the Torah

About as much as your average Palestinian, possibly less.

As for the origin of the conflict, Zionist extremists as well as fearful and displaced Jews and western governments paralyzed by the guilt of the Holocaust forced onto a settled and stable Palestinian area, a new and foreign state. That's the cause, always has, always will be.

I also never said I don't understand why the Palestinians are angry and rage against Israel, I'm just saying that it's counter productive to the peace process.

As for telling you to deal with it, well discuss it all you want, but waving the "Israel should not exist" flag just invites into the discussion people with a completely opposite viewpoint and ridiculously high intolerance level. Because once you go for the deep end on one side, there's always someone else to balance it out.

Well thank you for admission of the causes of the conflict. We have a d'accord.

And I understand you guys saying its counter active to peace, I agree. Both sides are guilty of things counter productive to peace, but not everyone wants peace and you have to kind of see their point and the legitimacy of it to. Peace for Palestinians is settling for less than they feel they are owed.

[uos_spo6]

And the Torah wasn't written with the intention of murdering people because they are different and violating women's rights.

Excuse me for the off topicness, best if we leave both the Torah and Quran out of this.

Also, obviously you haven't read much of the Torah, or just choose to ignore parts of it. Like for instance Gods commands to Joshua to exterminate the inhabits of the inherited land to be repopulated with jews. You do realize the Jews didn't always inhabit the holy land right? They conducted a war including what in modern days they'd be tried at the Hague for to get it.

Next.

[b_133]

Also, obviously you haven't read much of the Torah, or just choose to ignore parts of it. Like for instance Gods commands to Joshua to exterminate the inhabits of the inherited land to be repopulated with jews. You do realize the Jews didn't always inhabit the holy land right? They conducted a war including what in modern days they'd be tried at the Hague for to get it.

Next.

That was thousands of years ago.
Morals and law didn't exist, people would do anything in the name of god and it happened everywhere in the Ancient world.

[Visna]

Also, obviously you haven't read much of the Torah, or just choose to ignore parts of it. Like for instance Gods commands to Joshua to exterminate the inhabits of the inherited land to be repopulated with jews. You do realize the Jews didn't always inhabit the holy land right? They conducted a war including what in modern days they'd be tried at the Hague for to get it.

Next.

Who hasn't? I mean, if we go back far enough, can you name me a single country whose inhabitants' ancestors did not use some form of violence to gain that land? Jews have been both conquerors and conquered, sent to far away lands countless of times, and yet there has always been a connection on some level with the area now known as Israel. During millenia of Diaspora and various persecutions there has always been a yearning to one day return. And now that it's finally there, do you think Israelis, many of whom have nothing to do with the creation of Israel in the first place, would just willingly destroy their country, pack their bags and leave? Destroying countries is not the answer, but coming to an agreement that allows all parties to live together on something even resembling peaceful terms is. And both sides bear a part of the responsibility for that.

[Justinian]

Also, obviously you haven't read much of the Torah, or just choose to ignore parts of it. Like for instance Gods commands to Joshua to exterminate the inhabits of the inherited land to be repopulated with jews. You do realize the Jews didn't always inhabit the holy land right? They conducted a war including what in modern days they'd be tried at the Hague for to get it.

Next.

I'll care when the ancient Canaanites come and whine about it.

There is no use going into this argument because it will only go around in circles. The area known as Palestine has been conquered by many, many different nations over the centuries. Neither Arabs nor Jews, Muslims or Christians, were there first and you have to be kidding yourself if you think Palestine wasn't conquered by Muslim armies in much the same way as Israelites conquered Palestine. And the most delicious irony is that the name Palestine isn't even Muslim; it's Roman. Why? Because they conquered it to.

There's no point to this "who conquered who" nonsense. The only people in a position to whine about it are the Canaanites and there aren't many of them left.

Also it should be noted that the tales of Israel's great exploits are told in, well, their holy book. So that's probably not the most reliable source of information.

I'm with Visna -- we have to forget the past and move on here, because the past doesn't help anyone.

[mrcrusty]

I'll care when the ancient Canaanites come and whine about it.

shhh, you're not supposed to talk about that yet, they'll come when we least expect it.

[Justinian]

Do you agree that Jews in Europe had to come from somewhere? It's agreed between historians that Jews did originate from the Levant and Mesopotamia, so they had to come from somewhere, After all, 12 million Christians didn't wake up one day and decided to convert to Judaism right?

More like a few million Jews woke up one day and decided to found Christianity.

[uos_spo6]

Visna and Justinian, I wonder if you guys realize how much you are arguing my own point against Israel at this juncture.

And Visna, you speak of peace from the Israeli perspective. Their state is established, they are "entrenched", they have stablity, they have infrastructure, they have a well preserved culture. From the Palestinian point, who have none of these things except what lingers of their culture, it is not an acceptable peace to make.

You guys just have no capacity to think outside of yourselves. You'd probably take opposing view points to similar subjects relating to war and peace. I guess the US and allies should just make peace with the Taliban, we can buy them off with something if we really tried. Sri Lanka nationalists should just back off on the Tamils. etc. All for the sake of preventing death. You want peace in this situation because you say it will stop the killing, maybe fighting for their cause, however much you disagree with it, means more to some of them than simply staying alive.

Give them 24hour news cycles, nintendo DSs, fashion designer clothing and txt msging. Maybe then the Palestinians will be disctracted enough from their plight to acquiesce to their conquerors.

[b_133]

Visna and Justinian, I wonder if you guys realize how much you are arguing my own point against Israel at this juncture.

And Visna, you speak of peace from the Israeli perspective. Their state is established, they are "entrenched", they have stablity, they have infrastructure, they have a well preserved culture. From the Palestinian point, who have none of these things except what lingers of their culture, it is not an acceptable peace to make.

You guys just have no capacity to think outside of yourselves. You'd probably take opposing view points to similar subjects relating to war and peace. I guess the US and allies should just make peace with the Taliban, we can buy them off with something if we really tried. Sri Lanka nationalists should just back off on the Tamils. etc. All for the sake of preventing death. You want peace in this situation because you say it will stop the killing, maybe fighting for their cause, however much you disagree with it, means more to some of them than simply staying alive.

Give them 24hour news cycles, nintendo DSs, fashion designer clothing and txt msging. Maybe then the Palestinians will be disctracted enough from their plight to acquiesce to their conquerors.

I think you're a bit exxagerating the living conditions of most Palestinians.
Maybe in Hamas-controlled Gaza things are far from bright but Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank definetly have TV's with News channels, decent cloths and cellphones.

[uos_spo6]

I think you're a bit exxagerating the living conditions of most Palestinians.
Maybe in Hamas-controlled Gaza things are far from bright but Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank definetly have TV's with News channels, decent cloths and cellphones.

Nintendo DSs are more important. What about those?

And yes, bad wording on my part. I should have been more precise with reference to the area of Gaza as probably should have been through much of this discussion. I'm sure animosity runs deep in the West Bank and E Jerusalem though, they are just being good little war weary subjects and understandably tired of fighting. I can see the point from all sides, I'm just looking for you guys to do the same.

It isn't wrong just because it isn't your perspective. Israelis should feel they have a right to be there. Palestinians should want them out. Dogs and Cats man.

[Justinian]

Visna and Justinian, I wonder if you guys realize how much you are arguing my own point against Israel at this juncture.

And Visna, you speak of peace from the Israeli perspective. Their state is established, they are "entrenched", they have stablity, they have infrastructure, they have a well preserved culture. From the Palestinian point, who have none of these things except what lingers of their culture, it is not an acceptable peace to make.

You guys just have no capacity to think outside of yourselves. You'd probably take opposing view points to similar subjects relating to war and peace. I guess the US and allies should just make peace with the Taliban, we can buy them off with something if we really tried. Sri Lanka nationalists should just back off on the Tamils. etc. All for the sake of preventing death. You want peace in this situation because you say it will stop the killing, maybe fighting for their cause, however much you disagree with it, means more to some of them than simply staying alive.

Give them 24hour news cycles, nintendo DSs, fashion designer clothing and txt msging. Maybe then the Palestinians will be disctracted enough from their plight to acquiesce to their conquerors.

No, you just failed to understand what I was saying.

I was simply stating your argument is completely illogical and has no real place in rational discussion because the never ending circle of "x conquered y conquered z so y should have rights and x should have rights and z blah blah" is totally worthless.

You guys just have no capacity to think outside of yourselves.

LOL... thanks for the psychoanalysis.

[uos_spo6]

No, you just failed to understand what I was saying.

I was simply stating your argument is completely illogical and has no real place in rational discussion because the never ending circle of "x conquered y conquered z so y should have rights and x should have rights and z blah blah" is totally worthless.


LOL... thanks for the psychoanalysis.

Your going to use an algebraic equation to represent an illustration of violent human interaction?

And my argument has every place in a discussion about said topic. It is after all about understanding the Arab Israeli conflict. Or maybe we should just understand the Israeli side of it?

Admins.

[Justinian]

Your going to use an algebraic equation to represent an illustration of violent human interaction?

Thanks for proving my point -- you agree it's worthless and proves nothing, right?

And my argument has every place in a discussion about said topic. It is after all about understanding the Arab Israeli conflict. Or maybe we should just understand the Israeli side of it?

I think illogical arguments, related to the thread or not, should have no place in a logical thread. Of course this is assuming the thread was ever logical in the first place which is quite a leap of faith, I must admit. You seem to have this impression of me that I'm some crazy rabid anti-Muslim Jewish crusader, and this is just ridiculous. All I ever pointed out was that arguing that the Palestinians deserve land back because it was "conquered by the Israelis" doesn't help anyone.

In fact it's been proved regularly throughout the second half of the 20th century and the 21st century that trying to take their land back by force has had catastrophic repercussions for the Arabs whenever they try it. The time of war needs to be over because it doesn't benefit anyone -- the Israelis can kill people ten times more effectively than the Palestinians and no one gains anything from it, unless you really like to see dead Jews and Arabs. Your argument seems to be that I only care about what the Israelis gain from fighting -- well, neither side gains anything.

But to be brutally honest it benefits Israel more to fight wars because they have the military might to wipe out Palestinians in a large-scale genocide if they so choose. This would be heinously wrong and in violation of all kinds of human rights and UN conventions but guess what, they could do it. The Israelis have nothing to lose from fighting; Palestinians have everything to lose. Therefore it makes more sense for the Palestinians to stop fighting and start civic resistance to achieve their goals. The issue here is that for Palestinian radicals, their only goal is to wipe out Israelis, which can't be done peaceably. So all they want is war; war that will always end badly for Palestinian soldiers and civilians. That's just the way it is. So, in fact, me advocating peace benefits the Palestinians more than Israelis.

Admins.

I'm not an admin.

Yeah, every nation was founded that way. Israel is just the most recent gross situation in which it is illustrated and also happened just in the last century.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United...Resolution_181

I've dealt with the Left all of my life, and I do believe that leftist thought has some of the aspects of dementia. Do you seriously believe that a loathing for one's own culture ... a culture that has provided more freedom than any other in human history ... is "normal"?

I have absolutely no loathing for American culture.

"American culture" and "neocon culture" are not the same.

That's the Left's bag ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

[uos_spo6]

Thanks for proving my point -- you agree it's worthless and proves nothing, right?


I think illogical arguments, related to the thread or not, should have no place in a logical thread. Of course this is assuming the thread was ever logical in the first place which is quite a leap of faith, I must admit. You seem to have this impression of me that I'm some crazy rabid anti-Muslim Jewish crusader, and this is just ridiculous. All I ever pointed out was that arguing that the Palestinians deserve land back because it was "conquered by the Israelis" doesn't help anyone.

If you want to have a serious discussion on the Arab Israeli conflict and understanding why it takes place, how are you not going to make that it was conquerored and taken away from the Palestinians a key point?

Is the only information relevant that which happens after Israel was established? If thats the case this is going to be a helluva one sided argument. Lets only count the last quarter of a Basketball game. Wait "thats not relevant". Riiiiiight.

It's a linear comparison.

[uos_spo6]

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United...Resolution_181

I'm quite aware of UN Res 181. What are you trying to say by posting a link to it so I can address your point to the best of my ability?

[Blaze86420]

Visna and Justinian, I wonder if you guys realize how much you are arguing my own point against Israel at this juncture.

And Visna, you speak of peace from the Israeli perspective. Their state is established, they are "entrenched", they have stablity, they have infrastructure, they have a well preserved culture. From the Palestinian point, who have none of these things except what lingers of their culture, it is not an acceptable peace to make.

You guys just have no capacity to think outside of yourselves. You'd probably take opposing view points to similar subjects relating to war and peace. I guess the US and allies should just make peace with the Taliban, we can buy them off with something if we really tried. Sri Lanka nationalists should just back off on the Tamils. etc. All for the sake of preventing death. You want peace in this situation because you say it will stop the killing, maybe fighting for their cause, however much you disagree with it, means more to some of them than simply staying alive.

Give them 24hour news cycles, nintendo DSs, fashion designer clothing and txt msging. Maybe then the Palestinians will be disctracted enough from their plight to acquiesce to their conquerors.

haha, we're too stubborn to be pursuaded with DSs.
Joking, i like your posts uso. Im going to refrain from posting any more comments and see were this goes.

[Justinian]

Are you saying the nature of the world is war and violence? Because if so I'd have to agree and also say that you are laying down a point for the Palestinians. Let someone give them the means to conquer Palestine back from the jews and see how you feel about it then though.

Why should they be given any means besides what they already have?

The ridiculously misanthropic idea of social Darwinism at its best.

Switch the words up and see how you feel about the situation. Take out Palestinian, Jewish, Israeli and Arab and just substitute A, B, C and D to represent the people (Justinian should like this exercise) and I wonder how it'd all appear to you guys then.

I don't see how it changes anything.