Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

[jankren]

Well we could just have an invasion of powerful islamic counties such as Turkey, Egypt, Iran etc.
Just tell Israelis to surrender and they will be allowed to continue to live in the holy land but once they surrender, sell them into slavery. Simple really.

God Willing that shall happen hopefully soon as prophesized in their own Torah:

(Deutoronomy 9:24)
"You have been rebellious against the Lord from the day I knew you."
(Deutoronomy 31:29)
"For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking Him to anger"
(Deuteronomy 28:68)
"The Lord will bring you back to Egypt in ships, by the way about which I spoke to you, 'You will never see it again!' And there you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but noone will buy you."

Originally Posted by Blaze86420
I wanna hear from pro-israelies why israel has a right to exist.

No country has the right to exist. What international charter says so?

[b_133]

What's Deutronym or whatever? Don't recognize this from the Torah actually.
And well, even if it's there, tough. There's alot of BS written in the holy books. You very own Quran says that Israel belongs to the Jews. Wanna take it's word on it?
Man i just love inconvenient facts

[6644kp]

There's alot of BS written in the holy books.

If you dont even believe in your own holy book why the hell are you in the holy land?? go back to europe!

You very own Quran says that Israel belongs to the Jews.

Dont talk out of your ass in fact it is said that the captial of the last caliphate will be JERUSALEM!

[Behind The Mask]

Such a hard conflict to sort out, many arguements on either side...

One of my favorite arguements seem to be the one pointing out 'there have never been a Palestinian state," however this brings hypocrisy to play when one considers the pro-Israel crowd who supported Kosovo, for I cannot recall any grat state of Kosovo... Just because there may have never been a Palestinian state doesn't mean there shouldnt be one, they are an indigenous people and if they want independence I can understand why they should have it.

I consider myself pro-Palestinian in that they deserve their own state, however I am not Pro-Palestinian Aggression, I believe a proper two state resolution is the only answer, though I feel that Jerusalem should not be included in either territory... but thats another subject all together.

[6644kp]

I consider myself pro-Palestinian in that they deserve their own state, however I am not Pro-Palestinian Aggression, I believe a proper two state resolution is the only answer, though I feel that Jerusalem should not be included in either territory... but thats another subject all together.

unfortunantly israel does not want peace until the moment it will be wiped off the face of the map.
It will be done by Turkey, Iran, Egypt (descandant of Pharao) and Iraq (descandants of Babylon)

All the ancient civilzations are unified under islam. Egypt, Persia, Babylon
Islam is a slumbering giant once it wakes a puny state such as israel will not be able to resist its wrath.

[b_133]

Such a hard conflict to sort out, many arguements on either side...

One of my favorite arguements seem to be the one pointing out 'there have never been a Palestinian state," however this brings hypocrisy to play when one considers the pro-Israel crowd who supported Kosovo, for I cannot recall any grat state of Kosovo... Just because there may have never been a Palestinian state doesn't mean there shouldnt be one, they are an indigenous people and if they want independence I can understand why they should have it.

I consider myself pro-Palestinian in that they deserve their own state, however I am not Pro-Palestinian Aggression, I believe a proper two state resolution is the only answer, though I feel that Jerusalem should not be included in either territory... but thats another subject all together.

The fact that there was never a Palestinian state isn't supposed to counter the 2 state solution idea. I'm all for it, and by far the majority of Israelis are also for it. It usually comes up when people try to claim that Jews had invaded a Palestinian state, right.

Or to counter BS articles like the OP which make the comparison between pre-48 Palestine to modern U.S.
Or to counter stupid maps like the one that dude posted.

And i don't recall alot of ruckus in Israel about Kosovo. What are you talking about? It wasn't really anymore a big deal here than anywhere else.

If you dont even believe in your own holy book why the hell are you in the holy land?? go back to europe!

Sigh.
Scriptures and 2000 years old Prophecies is not the reason Israel was created. Zionism was a mostly secular movement. It was a national movement, not a religious one.

I've repeated this for so many times, it's obvious by now that we have a language barrier here, so let me try to make it easier:

الصهيونية هي حركة علمانية.
نبوءات ليس السبب في وجود دولة اسرائيل

I don't know if it's actually accurate. I don't care too. You tell me.

Dont talk out of your ass in fact it is said that the captial of the last caliphate will be JERUSALEM!

Like i said, lots of crap written in those books.

unfortunantly israel does not want peace until the moment it will be wiped off the face of the map.
It will be done by Turkey, Iran, Egypt (descandant of Pharao) and Iraq (descandants of Babylon)

All the ancient civilzations are unified under islam. Egypt, Persia, Babylon
Islam is a slumbering giant once it wakes a puny state such as israel will not be able to resist its wrath.

Roflcopter.
Turkey is a big U.S ally and trying to get into the EU. Iran alone can't do much to Israel at all other than fire missiles at Israeli cities praying to Allah that they won't be shot down by what is probably the most advanced Missile interceptor system in the world. Egypt is an ally of the U.S and has every intention to stay one, it's also fighting terrorism and extremism in it's own borders and is hostile to Iran as well as Iran's proxy groups. Iraq is the one most unlikely to attack Israel, i know that over there in La La Land the insurgents have beaten the U.S and Saddam is still alive, but back here on earth Iraq is still occupied by the U.S and the government is almost a puppet government of the U.S.

Egyptians are not descendants of Pharaoh or the Ancient egyptians who actually used to live there, Egyptians today are mostly Arabs. If anyone has any genetic ties to the real natives of Egypt it's the Copts minority. Not sure on that either though.
Iraqis are also not Babylonians. They're also Arabs.
Man, you don't even need a history lesson to figure out that not everyone who currently lives somewhere is a descendant of the people who lived there thousands of years ago, that's just the case with us evil Jews

[Blaze86420]

Such a hard conflict to sort out, many arguements on either side...

One of my favorite arguements seem to be the one pointing out 'there have never been a Palestinian state," however this brings hypocrisy to play when one considers the pro-Israel crowd who supported Kosovo, for I cannot recall any grat state of Kosovo... Just because there may have never been a Palestinian state doesn't mean there shouldnt be one, they are an indigenous people and if they want independence I can understand why they should have it.

I consider myself pro-Palestinian in that they deserve their own state, however I am not Pro-Palestinian Aggression, I believe a proper two state resolution is the only answer, though I feel that Jerusalem should not be included in either territory... but thats another subject all together.

although i dont agree with you 100%, +rep for your comment. this is exactly what im takling about. the reason palestine was never a nation governing itself is because it was always part of a caliphate or a colonial power, much like every other arab nation was.

[mrcrusty]

6644kp, cmon man, now you're just grasping at straws...

There's no need to be anti Israeli for the sake of it.

[Blaze86420]

it was a mistake starting this thread. instead of arguing about israel's foundation, we get people from both sides discussing israel's military capabilities and whether the arab world could take it down.

[Visna]

it was a mistake starting this thread. instead of arguing about israel's foundation, we get people from both sides discussing israel's military capabilities and whether the arab world could take it down.

Welcome to the Mud Pit on Total WAR Center...

[uos_spo6]

Israels foundation?

Just look to the WZO, the Irgun and similar underground groups, the UN, American and British politicians who felt both pressured and saw an oppurtunity to capture some support and votes, the British Mandates inability to deal with the growing Israeli terrorist and gentrification activities and Nazi Germany for providing the springboard.

[uos_spo6]

If I can admit that my country was founded on the raping of another people, The United States of America / Native American Indian Tribes, and be honest with myself about it than why can't the Israelis and their supporters do the same? Too soon?

[Visna]

If I can admit that my country was founded on the raping of another people, The United States of America / Native American Indian Tribes, and be honest with myself about it than why can't the Israelis and their supporters do the same? Too soon?

I hope you can agree that there is a difference between acknowledging that wrongs were committed to some people at your country's creation and to agreeing that thus the country should be destroyed?

[uos_spo6]

I hope you can agree that there is a difference between acknowledging that wrongs were committed to some people at your country's creation and to agreeing that thus the country should be destroyed?

From an outside perspective, sure. From the American Indians point of view the US should be destroyed and they should have what was theirs back that the invading white europeans took and connived (sp?) away. Exactly the same as I said for Israel, from the Palestinian perspective, they are right to feel and act how they do.

The difference between us is I can put myself outside of my own interests and speak, you guys aren't doing that. Some of you, I'm not naming any names B 133, are literally Israeli, so of course they don't agree with me.

I'm American so of course I'd rather not see my country destroyed. At least I'm not hiding from the facts like the Israelis and Turks though. Just admit it to yourselves.

The difference is I can plainly see and admit the hippocricy in myself and when it comes down to it I'm honest with myself.

And as for pot shots, sorry your guys skin is so thin. Wasn't much of a pot shot if you consider it a serious conflict of statements though. It's humorous in a self contradicting sense. If getting ragged on a lil is so intolerable to you than I guess that explains why you have difficulty being honestly with yourselves about your friend Israels basis of existence and circumstances surrounding its rise to statehood.

Like I said before a few times, I don't dislike jews or much care. I might crack a joke but not in any sense of seriousness. The holy land has always been a much contested place for one to dominate and for anyone to expect peace there now is disillusioned. So you got the Jews and Muslims at each others throats over it, just be happy the Pope and christians don't really bother. I guess they had enough blood over a fairytale religiously hyped land during the Crusades. . . though I guess if you look further inland from there its not the case.

[Tiberios]

From an outside perspective, sure. From the American Indians point of view the US should be destroyed and they should have what was theirs back that the invading white europeans took and connived (sp?) away. Exactly the same as I said for Israel, from the Palestinian perspective, they are right to feel and act how they do.

The difference between us is I can put myself outside of my own interests and speak, you guys aren't doing that. Some of you, I'm not naming any names B 133, are literally Israeli, so of course they don't agree with me.

I'm American so of course I'd rather not see my country destroyed. At least I'm not hiding from the facts like the Israelis and Turks though. Just admit it to yourselves.

The difference is I can plainly see and admit the hippocricy in myself and when it comes down to it I'm honest with myself.

And as for pot shots, sorry your guys skin is so thin. Wasn't much of a pot shot if you consider it a serious conflict of statements though. It's humorous in a self contradicting sense. If getting ragged on a lil is so intolerable to you than I guess that explains why you have difficulty being honestly with yourselves about your friend Israels basis of existence and circumstances surrounding its rise to statehood.

Like I said before a few times, I don't dislike jews or much care. I might crack a joke but not in any sense of seriousness. The holy land has always been a much contested place for one to dominate and for anyone to expect peace there now is dillusioned. So you got the Jews and Muslims at each others throats over it, just be happy the Pope and christians don't really bother. I guess they had enough blood over a fairytale religiously hyped land during the Crusades. . . though I guess if you look further inland from there its not the case.

I can understand the feelings of the native indians in America, but I don't go around yelling destroy america. I can also see why the Palestinians fell the way they do, I just think that Israel has the right to exist.

And about yopur comment on my sig, it was rather worthless to this discussions.

[Tiberios]

I will concur that yes the Jewish people have a right to establish a state for themselves if thats what they want but I do not agree with where they choose to do it and the methods by which it was done.

Placing a Jewish state anywere else than in Palestine would be ridiculous. It would be like placing denmark in Greece.

[Oldgamer]

I can understand the feelings of the native indians in America, but I don't go around yelling destroy america. I can also see why the Palestinians fell the way they do, I just think that Israel has the right to exist.

Neither do I. I am 1/2 Comanche, and my ancestors realized before WWI that they had to get off the reservations, and they did. They assimilated, and they are part of modern American culture, instead of sitting of the reservation, crying in their beer about all of the "atrocities".

As for the PAL's they need to get out of the "refugee camps" ... it happened 60 years ago, sheesh! ... and assimilate into the nations in which they've lived all of their lives.

However, there's one problem: The nations they're in don't want them! They're simply a pawn in a propaganda war ... apparently, the only kind of war that they can win.

[uos_spo6]

The world is full of wrongs and many of them will never be put right and have no chance of things ever being reversed but that doesn't mean you can't voice your concern or thought over them. If we ignored everything we thought was f-d up there'd just be more of it.

There are a million and one issues I could argue from the same stance on, it just so happens right now I'm talking about Israel. Yes it's too late to do the right thing and give it all back to the Palestinians and send the jewish descendants back to wherever they came from in Europe or elsewhere in the Middle East or Africa or wherever else they were. Yes its too late for America to be dismantled and all us Europeans going back to where we came from and give this all back to the Native Americans. Yes rape should be punishable by death. Yes the punishment should fit the crime. No smoking pot or using any drug for that matter should not be a criminal offense treated the same as a theif or murderer though yes hard drugs should be illegal.

But it doesn't mean we should ignore the historical accuracies and facts surrounding it all. Otherwise more injustices will go on if no one faces the existing ones. If you support Israel, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm just as entitled to expose you for your biasedness and jaded points of view much as your entitled to try and call me out on mine.

Too bad for you guys I'm always right though. (jk)

I can understand the feelings of the native indians in America, but I don't go around yelling destroy america. I can also see why the Palestinians fell the way they do, I just think that Israel has the right to exist.

And about yopur comment on my sig, it was rather worthless to this discussions.

I will concur that yes the Jewish people have a right to establish a state for themselves if thats what they want but I do not agree with where they choose to do it and the methods by which it was done.

[mrcrusty]

From an outside perspective, sure. From the American Indians point of view the US should be destroyed and they should have what was theirs back that the invading white europeans took and connived (sp?) away. Exactly the same as I said for Israel, from the Palestinian perspective, they are right to feel and act how they do.

True enough, but how does that lead to peace? Or do you simply not care about the thousands of innocent dead Palestinians?

Because what you're saying is that it's ok for Palestinians to launch rockets into Israel, because the Israelis have it coming. Which of course, leads to inhumane bombing raids killing hundreds of innocent Palestinian children and civilians. Which leaves the survivors with no home, no family and nowhere else to turn but Hamas. Which leads to more rocket fire.

You see what I'm getting at? It doesn't matter who's "right" or "wrong", that self justification mentality for both Israelis and Palestinians is precisely why the conflict has not ended, "it's the other side's fault."

The difference between us is I can put myself outside of my own interests and speak, you guys aren't doing that. Some of you, I'm not naming any names B 133, are literally Israeli, so of course they don't agree with me.

I'm American so of course I'd rather not see my country destroyed. At least I'm not hiding from the facts like the Israelis and Turks though. Just admit it to yourselves.

The difference is I can plainly see and admit the hippocricy in myself and when it comes down to it I'm honest with myself.

Meh, I won't disagree. I just find it odd that Jews in Europe were discriminated against in Europe, rounded up in Europe and killed in Europe by racist Europeans. Yet the solution is to dump the survivors in the Middle East, give them lots of money and hope the people living there won't mind.
(Ok yes, not Europe, Nazi Germany, but it's purely to add to my point).

And as for pot shots, sorry your guys skin is so thin. Wasn't much of a pot shot if you consider it a serious conflict of statements though. It's humorous in a self contradicting sense. If getting ragged on a lil is so intolerable to you than I guess that explains why you have difficulty being honestly with yourselves about your friend Israels basis of existence and circumstances surrounding its rise to statehood.

My thin skin is a serious health condition, don't make fun of it.

Israel's legality as a nation is irrelevant, last time I checked, the year wasn't 1948. Israel is too entrenched as a sovereign state to be absolved by any legal means. Deal with it.

Like I said before a few times, I don't dislike jews or much care. I might crack a joke but not in any sense of seriousness. The holy land has always been a much contested place for one to dominate and for anyone to expect peace there now is dillusioned. So you got the Jews and Muslims at each others throats over it, just be happy the Pope and christians don't really bother. I guess they had enough blood over a fairytale religiously hyped land during the Crusades. . . though I guess if you look further inland from there its not the case.

Well, that's true.... but.... what's your point? Be glad the Pope doesn't call a Crusade? I should hope not.

Deus lo Vult!! God Wills It!!

[uos_spo6]

True enough, but how does that lead to peace? Or do you simply not care about the thousands of innocent dead Palestinians?

Because what you're saying is that it's ok for Palestinians to launch rockets into Israel, because the Israelis have it coming. Which of course, leads to inhumane bombing raids killing hundreds of innocent Palestinian children and civilians. Which leaves the survivors with no home, no family and nowhere else to turn but Hamas. Which leads to more rocket fire.

You see what I'm getting at? It doesn't matter who's "right" or "wrong", that self justification mentality for both Israelis and Palestinians is precisely why the conflict has not ended, "it's the other side's fault."

Meh, I won't disagree. I just find it odd that Jews in Europe were discriminated against in Europe, rounded up in Europe and killed in Europe by racist Europeans. Yet the solution is to dump the survivors in the Middle East, give them lots of money and hope the people living there won't mind.
(Ok yes, not Europe, Nazi Germany, but it's purely to add to my point).

My thin skin is a serious health condition, don't make fun of it.

Israel's legality as a nation is irrelevant, last time I checked, the year wasn't 1948. Israel is too entrenched as a sovereign state to be absolved by any legal means. Deal with it.



Well, that's true.... but.... what's your point? Be glad the Pope doesn't call a Crusade? I should hope not.

Deus lo Vult!! God Wills It!!

Sorry about your skin.

Sure the perpetuation of the conflict falls on both sides shoulders but the origination of it I'd have to put on the Zionists shoulders. You're saying the Palestinians should just accept defeat because peace is the best thing they can hope for and just stop all the killing, and while I can see that point from a conqueror turned pacifists interests now that they have what they want, to me it simply wouldn't be an option if I was a Palestinian. So I sympathize and understand why they do their part to perpetuate it. What kind of life does the average Gazan have to hope for in any sense of the immediate or forseeable future? Not much. So what do you do? Resist being just a pawn and waiting for a slow creeping death and humiliation for your people and fight back however you can. Thats all I'm sayin.

Yes I agree the European powers that be and America pushed the problem of creating a state for the displaced, war weary, and fearful jewish community on the Palestinians. You'll notice the British tried to resist this by regulating the fluctuation of jewish immigrants annually but that just got them the King David Hotel blown up and all kinds of other problems from the more militant of the zionists. I stated before that blame also falls upon politicians catering to jewish lobbyists.

As for this not being 1948, and "dealing with it" as you say. . I am dealing with it, but does dealing with it mean I'm not allowed to voice my beliefs on the subject without being told to "deal with it" ? You're basically saying, yeah its ed up but its too late to change so why discuss it?

And no, obviously I wasn't speaking literal like the pope would ever call a crusade, not that Catholicism has any respect outside of itself in the christian world anyways. I was using it to illustrate the point that the holy land has always been fought over and always will so much like you said to me, deal with it to Israels existence, deal with it that there will never be any lasting peace in Palestine.

No because the Jews as a people originated from this area. The area is the closest they have to a homeland.

I don't know much about ethnic migration and heritage but I'd be interested to see how much genetic relation the jews of Europe even had to the original Tribes of Israel. Just guessing but I'd say about as much as I'm related to a Somali and my ancestors hail from Poland.

What if every group of people wanted to go back to where their ancestors originated? What kind of mess would that create? That's the same logic the Palestinians use for wanting their land back your just going further back in time.

And the Torah wasn't written with the intention of murdering people because they are different and violating women's rights.

Excuse me for the off topicness, best if we leave both the Torah and Quran out of this.

Naturally you'd put one over the other and criticize the latter if the earlier be your preference. To me they are all equally worthless. If religion comforts you about the unknown then sure buy up some of that stock, personally I'm not wasting my time with it.

And the Torah says God asked Abraham to sacrifice his first born and circumsize himself, I guess all Jews should do that if we want to start taking religious texts literally and using them as a basis for argument. I'll start basing my opinions on Disney movies. It'd hold about the same amount of water as using the Torah, Bible or Koran for references and comparison.

Neitszche (sp?) said it best, "God is dead."