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    Blaze86420's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Found this on the net, thought it might provoke thoughts:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Arab-Israeli Conflict: Too Complicated For Our Beautiful Minds
    Lawrence of Cyberia

    December 28, 2008

    There are so many words written about the "root causes" of the Arab-Israeli conflict, you might think the underlying issue is difficult to understand. But you'd be wrong. For all the mythology that interested parties want to wrap this conflict in, it's really not difficult at all to understand the confrontation that has been going on in Palestine for more than a century now. All you have to do is try to imagine that what happened to Palestine happened instead here in the U.S. Then ask yourself, "What would Americans do in this position?". And at that point, you find it miraculously stops being difficult to understand.
    The problem with this approach is that American Exceptionalism has left us barely able to imagine being in other people’s shoes. So we explain the world to ourselves through ridiculous platitudes like we’re good and they’re evil, that actually explain nothing and leave us as confused as when we started. We just don't do empathy very well.
    But let’s try anyway. Let’s try imagining that what has been going on in Palestine for the last 100 years is going on instead here in the U.S., right now.
    According to Wikipedia, Jewish Americans currently comprise about 2.5% of the population of the United States. Imagine that tomorrow morning some well-financed and politically connected Zionists in Europe will announce to you – the American people - they are going to build a "Jewish state". Americans aren’t known for being overly-curious about what goes on in the rest of the world, so probably wouldn’t really care one way or another about what Zionists in Europe are up to. In fact, you might well just shrug your shoulders and say "well, good luck with that", right up until the moment they tell you that they’re going to build it … here, in the United States.
    After picking yourself up off the floor, you might point out to them that the U.S. is already populated thank you very much, and that 97.5% of that population happens not to be Jewish. And that those 97.5% are going to be very strongly opposed to the suggestion that a minority, sectarian state - which automatically excludes them from equal citizenship solely because they don’t have a Jewish mom – should be forcibly imposed on them.
    At first, your Zionist interlocutors might respond with some really bizarre justifications for what they’re proposing to do to you. They tell you that Canada is right next door, and suggest you should leave your home and go and live there instead. They tell you that Canadians speak English, just like Americans; and Canada was settled by the British, just like the U.S., so you’d really be just as much at home there as in the U.S. And Canada’s huge, there’s plenty of room for you to relocate there!
    Then, when they can tell you’re not really buying these arguments about why you should vacate the only home you've ever had and live instead in some place you've never been to in the frozen north, they tell you it really doesn’t matter what you think as you’re not going to be consulted anyway. They have powerful foreign allies and enough firepower to create the "Jewish state" in America whether you like it or not, and so they do… by expelling about half of the U.S population to Canada and inviting Jewish immigrants to live in their vacated homes, and by disenfranchising most of those indigenous Americans who stubbornly remain.
    Imagine if that happened here. And imagine if it went on happening for 100 years, because the sheer persistence of the remaining non-Jewish population meant that their numbers had to be constantly culled in order to maintain the sectarian regime's preferred "demographic balance". What do you think those 97.5% of Americans who are excluded from equal citizenship just because they have the "wrong" ethnic-religious background are going to think of the sectarian regime that can exist in their homeland only through their own continuing dispossession? What do you think they might do? What do you think this sectarian state in America will end up looking like?
    I know exactly what it would look like. It would look just like this:


    An injured Palestinian is helped from the rubble following an Israeli missile strike in Rafah, southern Gaza Strip, Saturday, Dec. 27, 2008. (Hatem Omar, AP)

    Religous Jews from the volunteer ZAKA organization collect body parts at the blood-stained scene of a Palestinian suicide bombing February 4, 2008 in the southerm Israeli town of Dimona.

    A sectarian state of America, existing in a land where many different kinds of people live, but granting the full benefits of citizenship to only one of them, would look just like this, and no American would find it difficult to understand why. If the great Zionist experiment were happening at our expense, we would not find this conflict to be complicated, nor would we be inventing silly stories about alleged ontological defects in non-Jewish Americans to explain why so many people are dead, why our conflict is seemingly endless, and why our homeland looks like a moonscape. If this were happening to us, we would understand perfectly well that it is absurd to establish a "Jewish state" in a land where 2.5% of the population is Jewish, and to expect that the disenfranchised 97.5% is going to be just fine with that.
    And now, welcome to Palestine.
    The analogy I've just outlined isn’t as far-fetched as you might assume. When the first Zionist settlers arrived in Palestine, they claimed they were settling "a land without a people for a people without a land". But that wasn’t true. And we know it wasn’t true (quite apart from the testimony of the people who lived there) because starting in 1876, the Ottoman Empire compiled annual counts of the population in its subject provinces, including Palestine.
    The Ottomans counted their subjects in order to tax them, and in order to conscript them. The really interesting thing is that under the Ottoman Turks your tax rate and your liability for military service were linked to your religion. Jewish and Christian subjects paid extra taxes, but their sons were exempt from military service. Muslim subjects didn’t pay the extra taxes, but their sons were liable for mandatory service in the army. So population counts in Palestine during the late Ottoman Empire didn’t record just the number of people there, they also recorded their religion. Which, for the purpose of countering Zionist mythology, is remarkably helpful.
    So, let’s have a look at the official statistics of the Ottoman government, to see what the "empty land" of Palestine really looked like when the first Zionist settlers arrived there to pioneer their Jewish state. The information I’m posting is from The Population of Palestine: Population Statistics of the Late Ottoman Period and The Mandate (Ch 1, Table 1.4D) by Prof Justin McCarthy (Columbia University Press, 1990):

    The year of the first aliya was 1299 (Muslim calendar), or 1881/2 of the Common Era. And you can see at a glance that despite what you’ve been told, Palestine at that time was very far from being a land without a people. In fact, there were 462,465 people living in Palestine: 403,795 Muslims; 43,659 Christians; 15,011 Jews. In other words, Zionists were settling in a land where the pre-existing population was just 3.3 per cent Jewish, where a "Jewish state" could not possibly be established and maintained without the dispossession and disenfranchisement of those 96.7 per cent of the population that happen to have the "wrong" ethnic-religious origin, and where that dispossession would have to continue generation upon generation because of the majority population's ability to replenish itself through its high birthrate.
    And suddenly, my comparison with the U.S., with its tiny Jewish minority of 2.5%, and the question of how most Americans would react to the imposition of a minority, sectarian state in their midst, doesn’t seem so far-fetched after all.
    Despite the endless propaganda we are subjected to, about Palestinians (and Arabs and Muslims) being people who are "not like us", whose values are inimical to our own, and with whom we are condemned to be engaged in an endless clash of civilizations, the conflict in Palestine is actually rooted in the fact that Palestinians are exactly like us.
    Palestinians do not accept that equal citizenship in their own homeland should be denied them because of their ethnic/religious background, any more than Americans would accept ethnic justifications for denying them equal citizenship in the United States. Palestinians do not accept that a population that is 96.7% Muslim and Christian should be ethnically cleansed to make way for a sectarian Jewish state, any more than we would accept that the 97.5% of Americans who happen to be not-Jewish should be ethnically cleansed to make way for a Jewish state here. In short, Palestinians reject and resist Zionism because they do not accept being treated in ways that we, likewise, would never accept for ourselves.
    This is not difficult to understand. And yet we wrap the Arab-Israeli conflict in complex, ontological constructs about "The Arab Mind", about "Islamofascists" who "hate us for our freedoms", and about mindless, irrational anti-Semites who hate Israel just because it’s Jewish and not because the overwhelmingly non-Jewish population there has to be destroyed in order to make it, and keep it, Jewish. Complicated existential explanations to hide the simple fact that the Palestinians are doing exactly what we would be doing if we found ourselves in their situation.
    I understand that if you’re a Zionist you have a vested interest in not understanding all this, and in persuading others that it’s really very complicated. But for the rest of us, really, how difficult is this to grasp?


    Let the flame fest begin.
    Last edited by Blaze86420; May 10, 2009 at 12:05 AM.

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    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    All conflicts are desperately complicated in a sense, and I think that article does simplify things too much, a point similar to that which it makes is very much worth making, i.e. that the exceptionalism surrounding the conflict should be put to one side if it is to be solved. That goes for both sides.

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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze86420 View Post
    Let the flame fest begin.


    It obviously didn't provoke any thoughts for you since all you did was post a link and talk about flames, so no, you can keep it.
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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    I have to say, this is one of the most sensationalist garbage articles i've ever read in my life.
    The comparison with the U.S is hillarious in it's stupidity, for too many reasons to even start listing.
    Not to mention the author repeatedly ignores facts and history.

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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by b_133 View Post
    I have to say, this is one of the most sensationalist garbage articles i've ever read in my life.
    The comparison with the U.S is hillarious in it's stupidity, for too many reasons to even start listing.
    Not to mention the author repeatedly ignores facts and history.
    The Jews are Invaders. That's as plain and simple as it gets. Lucky for them the America Inc. has lots of good military hardware to sell them and they have lots of money to buy it up.

    Two state solution is nothing less than a consolation prize for the Palestinians and to accept it is admission of defeat and humiliation.

    I don't think the Jews should be exterminated or anything radical of that nature because I believe in their right to exist as individuals and be alive and be proud of their heritage I just don't see where robbing another group of people of theirs comes in to the picture.

    I'm sure we can find them a nice island in the Florida Keys that's already got a warm jewy feel to it.
    The scribes on all the people shove
    And bawl allegiance to the state,
    But they who love the greater love
    Lay down their life; they do not hate

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    Georgy Zhukov's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by uos_spo6 View Post
    The Jews are Invaders. That's as plain and simple as it gets. Lucky for them the America Inc. has lots of good military hardware to sell them and they have lots of money to buy it up.

    Two state solution is nothing less than a consolation prize for the Palestinians and to accept it is admission of defeat and humiliation.

    I don't think the Jews should be exterminated or anything radical of that nature because I believe in their right to exist as individuals and be alive and be proud of their heritage I just don't see where robbing another group of people of theirs comes in to the picture.

    I'm sure we can find them a nice island in the Florida Keys that's already got a warm jewy feel to it.
    How do you propose to move 7,000,000 Israelis, many of which are educated professionals, even more of which are trained to kill people to a deserted island in the Florida keys?

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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by The Guide View Post
    How do you propose to move 7,000,000 Israelis, many of which are educated professionals, even more of which are trained to kill people to a deserted island in the Florida keys?
    Deportations and Ethnic cleansing.
    Didn't you know? It's perfectly okay when Jews are the subject.

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    Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by The Guide View Post
    How do you propose to move 7,000,000 Israelis, many of which are educated professionals, even more of which are trained to kill people to a deserted island in the Florida keys?
    By push of bayonet if we have to. JK. Had to inject some essence of Total War in the convo somewhere.


    I'm not speaking in the realistic sense, it'll all never happen. A hundred years from now if humanity hasn't destroyed itself or the natural forces that be eradicated our miserable little species Israel will still be there and the conflict will still be going on. What the hell are people going to do if we're not busy fighting wars? It's in our nature and definitely in the blood of those two people to hate each other (Israelis and Palestinians).
    The scribes on all the people shove
    And bawl allegiance to the state,
    But they who love the greater love
    Lay down their life; they do not hate

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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Wipe Israel off the map and the conflict shall be resolved. Simple.


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    eggthief's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    Wipe Israel off the map and the conflict shall be resolved. Simple.
    While we're at it, let's take out the US, Canada and Turkey seeing as they killed other people to obtain their current ground and there are probably more than enough other countries who did this. But no, those are justified cause it isn't very recent anymore, that it will probably happen again later on, this is just a typical weak display of picking a scapegoat for existing problems.

    Both Israel and Palestine and every other of your muslim countries, hell the whole world, did and will do bad things. Both sides are to blame for the conflict in the Middle East, get over it. We are humans, we are build to kill each other, political and religious reasons are just cover ups for the actual reasons.

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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    Wipe Israel off the map and the conflict shall be resolved. Simple.
    Ahmadinejad wishes to do so. But he might be just a little bit hesitant to try, with Bebe Netanyahu as Prime Minister.

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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldgamer View Post
    Ahmadinejad wishes to do so.
    Which is why we should all be relieved he has little power in foreign policy, and the real powers that be in Iran have repeatedly supported the two state solution.


    Quote Originally Posted by eggthief View Post
    Well Iran is pretty dangerous as well right now, but with bad relations with both Israel and the US who carry both a strong military force and surrounded by Sunni nations, they probably won't use their nukes anytime soon.
    Tell me about "their nukes".
    Last edited by Bovril; May 10, 2009 at 11:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    Wipe Israel off the map and the conflict shall be resolved. Simple.


    Shall we stop these moronic posts, yes let's do that
    Last edited by Tiberios; May 10, 2009 at 03:43 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    Wipe Israel off the map and the conflict shall be resolved. Simple.
    yea hows that goin for you guys?

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    Georgy Zhukov's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Now you have presented a diametrically Arab minded source, where is your Israeli source on the existence of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Surely to understand a series of events such as those looking at one side does but promote a single agenda. If you want "understanding" you have to look from both perspectives.

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    Blaze86420's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    @Phier, thats actually called copying and pasting (i cant see a link anywhere). and did you even read the dang thing? the bit about flaming was only one sentence long...

    @b_133, ur an israeli. what else could i have expected? tell me, if the comparison is so laughable then explain how. and what facts does the author ignore?

    @The Guide, arab mined source? what the does that even mean? the author presented facts and formed his own opinion around them. there are no perspectives, just facts.
    Last edited by Blaze86420; May 10, 2009 at 01:47 AM.

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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze86420 View Post
    @b_133, ur an israeli. what else could i have expected? tell me, if the comparison is so laughable then explain how. and what facts does the author ignore?
    You could have expected me to see the other side. Because i do and everyone i've argued with on these boards can vouch for it. I sympathise with Palestinians and i'm for a 2 state solution.
    From Arabs or even any Muslim, however, i've learned to expect nothing but 'Wipe Israel off the map' and give the Palestinians everything. See jankren above.

    The comparison is laughable for too many reasons to state. First of all the U.S is an established, internationally recognized soverieign state. By making this comparison the author suggests that there was some sort of Palestinian state in Palestine that was developed, with high living conditions, a government and even a distnict culture. This assumption ignores facts and history.

    Secondly, the author ignores the reasons why there was a Jewish minority, the diaspora etc.
    He mentions the first Aliyah, And he ommits the fact that most Arabs at that time were immigrants who came for work and living conditions. I'm not making stuff up, look at demographic studies. He convienently ignores the fact that during the majority of the Ottoman rule Jews were a majority (Albeit still very few of them, Palestine was barely habited until the 19th century when mass Arab immigration began).

    Thirdly, the author says that the Jews would tell Americans to go to Canada since it has similar culture and language, hinting that Jews told Palestinians to move to neighboring Arab countries. This ignores history again and the 1947 Partition plan which included an Arab state alongside a Jewish one that the Arabs, not Jews, rejected.
    It also ignores the fact that by far, the majority of Israelis are for a 2 state solution until today.

    There are many more inaccuracies which i really can't be bothered to list right now. But the dude just ignores too many stuff.
    Again, it's a garbage of an article. The analogy is the worst he possibly could bring.
    And of course there are perspectives. There are facts like you said, the problem is that people who look at it from a certain perspective choose to ignore certain facts or twist them.

    In the end of the day, the immidiate creation of Israel happened like the creation of any other country in history - a bunch of people with a bunch of weapons came and said "ours". Unjust? maybe. But that's the way of things, i don't disagree that it's unjust, what annoys me is the ignorance of other injustices, like 800,000 Jews being kicked out of the Arab world (More than the amount of Palestinians) and not even mentioned in any column\article\TV show\where ever you get your info from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze86420 View Post
    I wanna hear from pro-israelies why israel has a right to exist.
    Constant jewish presence. Ethnic and religious ties. DNA tying Jews to the Levant area. This is where the last Jewish state was. And Jews always wanted to go back. If you don't know the ideologies and ideas of Zionism then there's no point to argue.

    Why does a Palestinian state has a right to exist exactly? Because they happened to be a majority there after mass immigrations? Isn't that the argument you would use against the creation of Israel, that most Jews were immigrants?

    I believe in 2 state solution. You obviously don't, as there is no other side as far as you're concerned. That's the difference between you and me.

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    Blaze86420's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by b_133 View Post
    The comparison is laughable for too many reasons to state. First of all the U.S is an established, internationally recognized soverieign state. By making this comparison the author suggests that there was some sort of Palestinian state in Palestine that was developed, with high living conditions, a government and even a distnict culture. This assumption ignores facts and history.
    A palestinian state didnt exist because it was under ottoman rule. A people dont need to be ruling themselves to have a claim to their own land. I can bring up millions of examples of this. What do living conditions have to do with anything? Most countries in Africa have horrible living conditions, should the African states be dissolved because of that? I find this hilarious. Lacks distinct culture? Do you even think before you comment?

    Quote Originally Posted by b_133 View Post
    Secondly, the author ignores the reasons why there was a Jewish minority, the diaspora etc.
    He mentions the first Aliyah, And he ommits the fact that most Arabs at that time were immigrants who came for work and living conditions. I'm not making stuff up, look at demographic studies. He convienently ignores the fact that during the majority of the Ottoman rule Jews were a majority (Albeit still very few of them, Palestine was barely habited until the 19th century when mass Arab immigration began).
    One of the more popular myths created by you zionists. Do expect people to believe that the region was practically empty until the 20th century? You wanna spread bs, at least make it believable. Check out the numbers the author wrote down: their was a population, and only 3% was jewish.

    Quote Originally Posted by b_133 View Post
    Thirdly, the author says that the Jews would tell Americans to go to Canada since it has similar culture and language, hinting that Jews told Palestinians to move to neighboring Arab countries. This ignores history again and the 1947 Partition plan which included an Arab state alongside a Jewish one that the Arabs, not Jews, rejected.
    It also ignores the fact that by far, the majority of Israelis are for a 2 state solution until today.


    and the rest is just more bs that i dont have time to reply to, im sure other people will though.

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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict



    On the first map it shows lands owned by Jewish landowners versus lands owned by Arab landowners. Than, it shows land designated for the future Arab country and for the future Jewish country. Than it shows lands held by Israel versus land held by Various Arab nations, and then it shows area A of the Palestinian authority versus Israeli controlled lands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius
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    Default Re: Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict

    [quote=Blaze86420;5155836]A palestinian state didnt exist because it was under ottoman rule. A people dont need to be ruling themselves to have a claim to their own land. I can bring up millions of examples of this. What do living conditions have to do with anything? Most countries in Africa have horrible living conditions, should the African states be dissolved because of that? I find this hilarious. Lacks distinct culture? Do you even think before you comment?[quote]

    I don't give a why.
    Fact is, there was no Palestinian state.
    They had no sovereignity over Palestine.
    And Arab nationalism in Palestine was non-existent until the early 20th century, meaning they didn't even make any claims to the land or requested autonomy. If they did, there are no records of it. Meaning they didn't.
    Living conditions have to do with the why of the immigration. It's the main reason they immigrated in the first place.
    And yes, tell me please, pre-48, what distinct culture did Arabs in Palestine had? Something that was different from other Arabs in the Middle East.
    Even to this day the differences are minor at best, so don't me.



    One of the more popular myths created by you zionists. Do expect people to believe that the region was practically empty until the 20th century? You wanna spread bs, at least make it believable. Check out the numbers the author wrote down: their was a population, and only 3% was jewish.
    I didn't say empty. I said the population was very small until the 19th century when immigration began. It started out small, and it ended up with massive Arab immigrations during the 20th century. This is a fact. This is history. Go read up on it.
    And i know 3% was Jewish. You ignored my post completely. The author ignored the reasons behind it and he ignored everything prior to the middle of the 19th century or so.



    and the rest is just more bs that i dont have time to reply to, im sure other people will though.
    Oh man. I love this hillarious map. Always brought up by the likes of you thinking it proves your point. Let me shoot it down for you.
    The 1946 Map is an outright lie. I'll assume that whoever made this map wasn't stupid enough to think the Palestinians had a state over the green areas. I'll assume he means land ownership in which his estimation of Jewish ownership is fairly accurate but that map makes the false assumption that every piece of land that wasn't owned by Jews was owned by Arabs. I call BS on that, given how around 60% of the land in Palestine prior to 48 was state owned. Another couple of percents were owned by Brits privately, or Churches and other christian establishments.
    Then you have around 10% of the land owned by Jews, the rest by Arab landlords.
    There are British documents from that time that confirm this, like Survey of Palestine.
    Again, go read up on it.

    Then you have the accurate 47 map which depicts the partition plan followed by the 49-67 map omitting the fact that the Arabs are the ones who had declared war and rejected the plan and that Israel legally annexed the Gaililee and it's an internationally recognized Israeli land.
    The pre-67 Map also makes it seem as if Palestinians had sovereignity over the WB and Gaza. It ommits the fact that both were illegaly annexed by Jordan and Egypt respectively.

    The 2000 Map might be correct - i don't know the layout of settlements in the WB, but it does look extremely exxagerated. I don't think that 40,000 Jews or so could literally hold more than half of the WB. Seems like BS to me, and given the questionable BS presented by the other maps i wouldn't be surprised.

    But anyway of course it ommits everything after 2000 because Israel had disenageged from Gaza and a couple of settlements in the WB as well.

    Pathetic map. Go do your homework and bring me some better, more informed sources than BS maps like that.

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