Dwarven Units for 1.1?

[brymht]

First off, I would just like to say THANK YOU to the Third Age Team. This is far and away the finest mod I've played on the Med 2 Total Wa engine.

More than that, you can tell some love and artistry went into this. There was a great deal of love for Tolkiens material; for accuracy, and even for balance. Truly a work of art, and an incredible achievement. I'm enjoying my campaign now.

THANK YOU!

Hopefully this will not seem like ing; just suggestions for a few new units which I'm guessing you've probably seen in the forums before. I know additional things might be coming to the for later on and hopefully this might give a few ideas for some new units.

1. Dwarven Battle Ragers : Basically Dwarven Light Infantry. Dwarves who choose to wield an axe in each hand; and who possess fantastic speed and endurance over short distances. Justification for this would be in LOTR Movie franchise; Gimli often chose to wield 2 axes simultaneously. Clearly this was a fighting style in use for the Dwarven Kingdoms.

2. Dwarven Shortbowmen / Hunters: The shortbow was not wholly foreign to Dwarves. In The Hobbit; Thorin and some of the other Dwarves used the shortbows supplied to them with some familiarity; even if they were rather inept with them. Point is; they clearly didn't state it was "un Dwarven" to use a bow or that them shooting dear was anything strange. These should be mediocre AT BEST.

3. Dwarven Pony Riders : The worst Cavalry in Middle Earth. These are the dwarves who are so skillful in horsemanship that they manage to stay on their ponies. Thats about the best that could be said of them. Very little charge bonus. Best not to use for any other purpose than chasing down fleeing Snaga. Inspiration for this come, again, from the Hobbit.

[DjAci]

I fail to see the tactical need for these units in a current dwarven army. They seem pretty complete to me by now.

[brymht]

I disagree. The dwarven Army has almost no light infantry and 0 recuitable cavalry in the West.

The problem here is that though the Dwarves could drive the Snaga from the field, they could never catch up them them when they run away! They would have HAD to have some light ponies on the side just for this circumstance. Even if they were terrible.

[Jean=A=Luc]

I disagree. The dwarven Army has almost no light infantry and 0 recuitable cavalry in the West.

It's more or less intentional. They have Dale mercs for cavalry.

[Kolaris8472]

I don't think its necessary to have cavalry the way battles worked in Middle Earth.

Driving the enemy from the field was often enough - siege warfare was a large part of it, and wars were usually concluded in one massive engagement. Certainly, cavalry and light units would have been helpful, but not necessary for ones such as Dwarves who almost exclusively fought underground or in siege battles and raiding/guerrilla tactics weren't an option.

[Toyotomi]

Dale mercs are fine and dandy (in the east) but as the OP said, in the west theres nothing to counter snaga.

I disagree about the dwarves having pony riders or any form of cavalry in general though, the dale mercs are a nice plus and all, but the sad fact remains that the dale mercs end up being the ONLY ... and I mean ONLY unit that usually ends up getting multiple and or higher chevrons and experience. The reason being simple, there the only unit able to catch anything on the battlefield.

Now this would be fine, as thats usually what happens with most armies / factions, cav gets faster exp / chevrons because they can round up prisoners and get kills after the battle is over.

^^ With that said, the dwarves are an ALL INFANTRY faction (again excluding dale mercs). I personally think dwarves should be given a nice +.1 to maybe +.2 movement speed modifier. Would that change very much in the overall play style of the faction? I doubt it, they might be able to close with archers a touch faster (which is a current faction weakness) but I don't think it would result in a tactical change in the way you engage other armies at all. What it will accomplish is, you will actually be able to "round up" some enemies after a win and get some exp to boot, instead of simply slowly chasing them off the field. A side effect would also be not fighting the same army of snaga's / ootm a 5th time in a row after you chased them off the field the previous 4 times and also you won't need to "rely" on dale mercs "all the time" because of this fact.

I had played the dwarves before and found it a large pain in the ... if I do decide to play them again I'm for sure going to mod their speeds to counter this. I'm sure it might not be realistic or hold with "tolkien lore" but I don't give a sweet... it is better then being annoyed lol!!!

If you do want to think of it within "tolkien lore" I'm sure with thier smaller stature and shorter legs the dwarves were not known for speed but, at the same time they were definatley known for their unsurpassed stamina and hardiness. Catching routing enemies after a hard battle could easily reflect that, but to implement it, you would need to up the speed.

[paradamed]

I disagree. The dwarven Army has almost no light infantry and 0 recuitable cavalry in the West.

The problem here is that though the Dwarves could drive the Snaga from the field, they could never catch up them them when they run away! They would have HAD to have some light ponies on the side just for this circumstance. Even if they were terrible.

Use crossbowmen and axe throwers to kill the snaga skirmishers.

[Mithrandir]

Each time we eliminate a faction weakness and/or niche, we move one step closer to monotony.

[Space Voyager]

Each time we eliminate a faction weakness and/or niche, we move one step closer to monotony.

VERY true. Mod would end up as a group of visually (and lore) different, but they would all play the same.

BORING.

[C.Maximus]

The Dwarves are fine, just use artillery and crossbows,axe throwers to route the snaga spear throwers, after you pepper them with a few crossbow volleys following a few fire balls from the near by catapult, they dont stand there long.

[Beregond]

following a few fire balls from the near by catapult, they dont stand there long.

and then these fireballs burn half of your own army
seriously,in a battle vs Isengard my catapults always aimed at my Vault Wardens and Axethrowers

[MasterBigAb]

and then these fireballs burn half of your own army
seriously,in a battle vs Isengard my catapults always aimed at my Vault Wardens and Axethrowers

Than I woulld think about your strategy again

[Fulgrim88]

I prefer ballistas. Had a small army dispatched to take a (or so i thought) small orc settlement. As i got there, the orcs had 3 full stacks which made conquering impossible. So i set camp on a nearby bridge, waited for them to attack me and decimated them all.
1 unit of vault wardens blocking and 2 units of ballistas firing at the bridge --> complete massacre^^
At the end of the first battle my ballistas alone had >900 kills

[The Sixth Wizard]

Each time we eliminate a faction weakness and/or niche, we move one step closer to monotony.

Exactly. Thank you.

No way we want faction monotony. The Dwarves are complete as a faction. All they need is a little more balancing of their units. They are meant to be slow, indestructible and rigid. That's what Dwarves are.

[JonSnow]

They have a negative speed modifier because of their short legs and because lore shows that Gimili had problems keeping up with Legolas and Aragorn, though not because he was tired just he could not run as fast. (The Two Towers book, disregard the movies where he says Dwarves are good sprinters runners, it's untrue)

[Toyotomi]

They have a negative speed modifier because of their short legs and because lore shows that Gimili had problems keeping up with Legolas and Aragorn, though not because he was tired just he could not run as fast. (The Two Towers book, disregard the movies where he says Dwarves are good sprinters runners, it's untrue)

Right and gameplay wise, the -speed modifier, especially the extra -.1 value for most units added with the new RC mod even though in keeping with "lore" makes for bad gameplay imo. Is there "lore" supporting dale merc cav riding down all routers in dwarven battles? I highly doubt it. For gameplay, I think it would be nice to actually catch the orcs and get units some exp. Jean-luc suggests "surrounding them" tactics, I'd suggest trying it, the orcs like to rout at the first chance, and even if you pick a few off the dwarves are still far far too slow (almost too slow to surround anything as well). I'm not talking about tactics or problems anyways really, just about trying to make the dwarves a bit more fun to play with, thats all.

[brymht]

Sorry, but it just occured to me. I REMEMBER where I read Dwarves riding ponies. Bjorn gave them a bunch of ponies for the trip out of his lands. Thorin and Co didn't act like there was anything crazy about riding ponies, or anything "un Dwarfish" about it. Undoubtedly, they were no Rohan or Rhun. But a few Ponies would be the best they could have realistically mustered up anyway, if you're only going off of Tolkien.

[Malvenor]

I agree...a few ponies would be nice...for one, Dale Mercanaries are not too common...and them Snaga had me running around the field for 20 minutes trying to get 1 last unit to rout...

Don't make them anything able to fight against Rohan cavalry or anything, but just Light Cavalry..

[smoesville]

These should be mediocre AT BEST.

Why? the crossbow was never mentioned by tolkien and the dwarves in the hobbit were not particularly bad just deliriuos and starving.

Edit:
Why not have Breelanders recruitable in the west? it makes sense and there is no lore against it... the dwrves were friendly with these men so why not hire them?

[Jean=A=Luc]

For balance issue like snaga countering just wait for the RC mod. Other than that try to "save" your Dale cav and mostly keep them out of combat, use them just for chasing routers (if you're having problems keeping their numbers up). Other than that I guess one could try some putting more emphasis on surround tactics with dwarves so when the enemy routs they have to go through your batallions. You still won't catch them all but it's something.