Europe’s Right is embracing its Jews

[Каие]

Who honestly expect anything less than total pathetic hypocrisy from Europe's far right wing?

[Portuguese Rebel]

With the jews behaving like nazis i'm not surprised at all...

[b_133]

With the jews behaving like nazis i'm not surprised at all...

How are Jews behaving like Nazis?

[Gertrudius]

With the jews behaving like nazis i'm not surprised at all...

That statement is rather bigoted. You should say that Israel is behaving like Nazi Germany. Not that I think that is the case, but surely you can see the difference?

Also, it would help if you explained the paradigm your using in finding correlations between the two. You really should be more specific, or else people might misinterpret your statements.



Take it easy,

[Portuguese Rebel]

That statement is rather bigoted. You should say that Israel is behaving like Nazi Germany. Not that I think that is the case, but surely you can see the difference?

Also, it would help if you explained the paradigm your using in finding correlations between the two. You really should be more specific, or else people might misinterpret your statements.



Take it easy,

Of course i meant Israel, what else could i mean? I'm sorry if i'm not pussy footing around the "jew trauma". At the moment my patience with those guys is exhausted. Calling as i see it, Israel hasn't got a rightful claim to exist and it is not "a problem", it is "the problem". Creating Israel was the biggest mistake the West made since WWI.

Suuuuuure, teh juice r liek teh nazis.
What nonsense.

Nonsense? Well, if you think that walling in the palestinians and cutting all services and bombing them every once in a while to be fine then i must say that i do not agree. And yes, that is very similar to what nazis did. It is quite ironic that a people that suffered such now does it to others.

[Erik]

It is quite ironic that a people that suffered such now does it to others.

The vast majority of Israeli's have never suffered any discomfort from the Nazi's.
Either because they were born after the war, or because they never lived in the places occupied by the Nazi's. (most Israeli immigrants were from the Soviet Union or America).

They are using the real holocaust victims so they can play the victim role and call anyone they dislike an anti-Semite.
Kinda like Afro-Americans demanding compensation for the "slavery' they suffered.

[DekuTrash]

Kinda like Afro-Americans demanding compensation for the "slavery' they suffered.

It works EVERY time

Ya know.......every civilization has used and been the victims of slavery. Not just Africans.
But I can't say that, that would be racist.

[b_133]

The vast majority of Israeli's have never suffered any discomfort from the Nazi's.
Either because they were born after the war, or because they never lived in the places occupied by the Nazi's. (most Israeli immigrants were from the Soviet Union or America).

They are using the real holocaust victims so they can play the victim role and call anyone they dislike an anti-Semite.
Kinda like Afro-Americans demanding compensation for the "slavery' they suffered.

What the ? do you have the slightest idea what are you talking about?

Most Jewish immigrants from the Soviet Union and America? Are you me?
Israel has around 6 million Jews, the crushing majority is from Europe and The Middle East. (The Jewish exodus that talking about is a taboo of course, because Palestinians are the only ones who lost their homes as far as you and most of Europe is concerned).
There are barely any American Jews living in Israel, very few of left the U.S, there may be a couple hundreds with South American descent (I know someone who's family is from Uruguay) but that's where it ends.

Play the victim role? Call anyone they dislike anti-semite? I think you're mistaking groups like ADL with the majority of us rational Israelis like myself who don't call you an anti-semite but simply crush your pathetic excuses for arguments against Israel.
Please, go read some god damn books. Go to Wikipedia for all i care. Just educate yourself that tiny bit before you try to argue anything against anyone.
I almost burst out laughing at your remarks that most immigrants are from the USSR and the U.S.

Smash the jew egg before it hatches.


If you agree with Israel and it's practices then youre probably either Jewish or have no ability to relate to another group of peoples predicament from a completely unbiased point of view and likely a bigot or racist anyways.

And yes, I'll be chastised for saying so. But it's the truth. Just like the only people who want to legalize drugs are those of us that do them.

If lived in Gaza I would lob rockets or anything I could get my hands on at wherever I could including where you slept, ate and where your children learned. Hamas is not a terrorist group but a guerilla army fighting back the only way it can. It's a struggle for many things including respect, land, reprisal and religion.

But don't hold that against me Jews when I come to the diamond store to buy my girlfriend an engagement ring. At that point in time you are A OK by me!

Unable to see another point of view, like you have just perfectly shown us you mean? Indeed, if any Israel-supporter can't see the other side we all got good teachers who are the guys we argue with, like yourself.
But it's nice to know that you agree with throwing rockets at children.
Hamas aren't terrorists, of course. I hear that all the time. But you're a special case, you aknowledge the fact that Hamas is aiming at innocent people (Terrorism), but you apologize for it. At least you're not one of the delusional 'Ahh but Hamas' rockets are not accurate, their trying to hit IDF but hit civilians every time for some reason!111'.
Nah, you're the worst kind.
You're a terrorist apologist and of the worst kind.

The massacre in Gaza is nothing to do with the Jewish faith. It was a political action, engineered by nationalists, zionists and those who pandered to them in order to gain votes.

What massacre?
Maybe it was a political action engineered by nationalists, maybe it was a military action engineered by a couple of dozens ing rockets a day. Gee, i don't know.
Do you people even acknowledge the fact that there exists 2 sides to every conflict? Everyone pick their own sides but you know, being aware that there is another side at all is a good place to start.

there has not been significant enough casualties at the hands of Israel in the last few years for me to dig up more numbers, seeing as they are usually no more than a few dozen, and will not significantly effect the results of my math

Over a 1,000 Israelis died during the second intifida which lasted pretty much until 2007 or so.
But honestly, Nazi Germany? I'm sorry, i'm not seeing any policy of systematic genocide against Palestinians.
In fact, what i am seeing is the Palestinian population permanently on the rise, i see people in Gaza who have food and don't have their bones showing out, and i'm not seeing any Palestinians being lined up and shot or systematically killed in Gas chambers.
Maybe i'm just wrong and the Zionazis are just covering it all up, wouldn't be a problem given how the Zionists control the media, the economy, the foreign policy of the U.S, the politics in Europe and basically everything right?

Right?

[

Agreed that being Jewish isn't enough to solely tie some kind of responsibility for what goes on in Gaza to a person, but being a supporter of Israel is.

EDIT
I'd like to meet a Jew who can be honest about Israel and how it came to be and the way it conducts itself and just say, "You know, you're right. I may be Jewish and Israel may be a Jewish state but just becaues I share the faith and heritage doesn't mean I have to blindly support them."

There are many Jews who criticise Israel. See Finkelstein, Chomsky, whatever.
Show me one Muslim who doesn't blindly support 'Palestine'. Are you a Muslim? cause that would explain your blind sympathy pretty well. Or should i say not really sympathy, because to be honest, most Muslims who go out on the streets of Europe against Israel don't give a half a flying about Palestinians, their just pawns for the Muslim world to de-legitimize Israel.
If people would give a about other people dying they would lift a finger for the millions in Africa and around the world.
No, i think Palestinians are merely tools for people to promote an agenda. People like you will always find something to bash Israel for, even if every Palestinian would live like a king.

I'm not even getting into why those numbers are BS (although just one person killed like that is too much in my book) but it is a whole different game of course. If the israelis tried to pull that off in an open genocide they would be toast. Hence the slow marginalization and removal of palestinians. You seem to like statistics, then why don't you go over what is the average palestinian economical situation and think why it happens to be so. And, what is this "latest offensive"? The thing is going on ever since Israel started. If you want to go over numbers go to the whole effects of jewish colonization of what is now known as "Israel". Study the massacres and the forced exodus of muslims from the area. But hey, maybe they add that bit to the qu'ran and 2000 years from now they can start a BS country based solely on what they think their relligion entitles them.

I can tell you why the numbers are BS for you. Because it proves you're wrong, and you're not going to get into that because of just that.
And you can swap 'person' for 'Palestinian', obviously you have no idea what is going on around the world and how many people are killed every day.
The slow removal of Palestinians? You know, i like statistics.
And there's not much more than statistics needed to prove you wrong. Just go over some demographics, i'm under the impression that a slow genocide of Palestinians like you seem to describe will at least slowly decrease the Palestinian population.
But surprise! This population went from a couple hundreds of thousands in 48 to a couple of millions today. There goes your slow genocide.


And Palestine had a constant Jewish presence there. At times more than Muslim (For the majority of the Ottoman rule until the late 19th century or so). It has nothing to do with some 2000 years old prophecy, Zionism is mainly a secular movement. There goes another BS argument out the window.

Sorry, that's utter BS. The SOLE reason why the jews decided on that piece of land was due to scripture. What other atractive could that muslim ruled land have? Plus it was not only a "guilty conscience" that led to this. The soon to be Israelis did terrorist attacks and threatened western powers with more to come if that particular piece of land was not given to them. You can google up "King David Hotel" and "Stern Gang" if you're interested.

Constant Jewish presence, Jewish holy sites and ties with this land.
And acts like that happened from both sides. You can continue to ignore the fact that there are 2 sides to this conflict and go on and educate yourself about the dozens of massacres carried out by Arabs pre-48 or you can continue with your one-sided view of everything that has to do with Jews.
I'll bet my money on the second option.

And what Muslim ruled lands? Palestine was ruled by the Brits at that point.
Again, history will keep biting you in the ass if you don't go and do your ing homework before putting up a show that you actually know something about this.

Like i said, find me jews willing to sign a "erase Israel because it was a mistake" petition and i'll stop calling what they call themselves. My guess is you won't find a single jew willing to say this, so i'm pretty confortable generalizing on that. You just have to prove me wrong. Should be pretty easy!

Do you have any idea how many Anti-zionist Jews are there? Finkelstein just comes up to mind immidiately.
There are so many blogs and websites around the net of Anti-zionist jews as well as protests in Europe and Campuses in the U.S by Jews during the Gaza war.
If you actually looked you'd know, but god no, that would prove you wrong. So you don't even try.

Right and what exactly were the peace initiatives offering? "Be happy we don't push you all the way into the Mediterranean" ? Seriously. Ya'll heads up your asses. How would you feel about the situation if you lived in Gaza?

For the Palestinians to accept whatever the offer was in each particular situation was probably considered a humiliation, and if you can't observe the fact that they know they are fighting an unwinnable war and garner some respect for the fact that they don't just aquiesce (I ain't even trying to spell that one right. . . .) to their conquerors demands like the Native Americans EVENTUALLY did then I guess its just a matter of not being willing to open your mind up an see it all at once.

If you came into my house and put me in the front yard in a tent and bullied me around then tried to be like, "hey, im staying in your house but can we please just stop fighting and I'll leave you alone to" I'd have to decline the offer and fight you to the death.

She was talking about Peace movements. You are talking about peace intiatives. Next time you're going to write a wall of text have your english teacher go over it and do us all a big favor.
And what is basically causing talks to fail is the outrageous right of return (See Camp david summit). The Palestinians' exclusive right that no other refugee on earth seems to be entitled to, only the Palestinians think they deserve a right to go back to Israel, kick out a couple millions of Jews, and create another state meanwhile.
Let's see, Israel will be a state with roughly the same amount of Palestinans as Jews, Palestine would be a state ethnically cleansed from Jews by then.
It would take, what, 2-3 years for the entire 'Only state for the Jewish people' idea to go out the window? I'm really interested in what you think is a fair peace agreement. One that doesn't include ending the State of Israel that way or another.


In the end of the day none of the people i replied to care about the other side of this conflict. Israel can go itself and all the Jews can drown in the sea for all you care as long as your hypocritical self-righteous 'justice' is carried out.
And the ignorance by some people... For god's sake, give us all a break and go read something.

[Orko]

Of course i meant Israel, what else could i mean? I'm sorry if i'm not pussy footing around the "jew trauma". At the moment my patience with those guys is exhausted. Calling as i see it, Israel hasn't got a rightful claim to exist and it is not "a problem", it is "the problem". Creating Israel was the biggest mistake the West made since WWI.



Nonsense? Well, if you think that walling in the palestinians and cutting all services and bombing them every once in a while to be fine then i must say that i do not agree. And yes, that is very similar to what nazis did. It is quite ironic that a people that suffered such now does it to others.

excuse me, but how is treating them like the Nazis did? and why are Jews Nazis?

[Visna]

With the jews behaving like nazis i'm not surprised at all...

Suuuuuure, teh juice r liek teh nazis.
What nonsense.

[Bovril]

Phier,
Without the raw data this discussion is going no where. I stick to my statement that in the past I have seen opinion polls showing a decline in antisemitism in general, and have yet to see ones showing a reversal of that trend. I also maintain the evidence you have presented is far too circumstantial to base any conclusions on. As my first post in this thread said, I'm not going to be drawn into discussing the 'new antisemitism' without any good reason to think it exists in the first place. It may exist, but its reckless to just assume it does based on the evidence you've given.

[Stavroforos]

Is this the same kinda embrace as that being given by America's right? Who view Jews as being almost Christians?

[Portuguese Rebel]

The vast majority of Israeli's have never suffered any discomfort from the Nazi's.

That doesn't stop them from using it as leverage everytime they get a chance.

[Erik]

That doesn't stop them from using it as leverage everytime they get a chance.

Nope.

And worst: they do it against every white person because, apparently, when some white people did something bad then all white people are guilty including their children for a thousand generations.

[Portuguese Rebel]

Nope.

And worst: they do it against every white person because, apparently, when some white people did something bad then all white people are guilty including their children for a thousand generations.

Yeah and what do they on about "white people". More than half of them ARE WHITE.

[Portuguese Rebel]

Approximately 8,861,800 Jews were reported to have lived in countries that were occupied by the Nazis. A reported 5,933,900 were killed during the reign of Nazi Germany.

I'm not even getting into why those numbers are BS (although just one person killed like that is too much in my book) but it is a whole different game of course. If the israelis tried to pull that off in an open genocide they would be toast. Hence the slow marginalization and removal of palestinians. You seem to like statistics, then why don't you go over what is the average palestinian economical situation and think why it happens to be so. And, what is this "latest offensive"? The thing is going on ever since Israel started. If you want to go over numbers go to the whole effects of jewish colonization of what is now known as "Israel". Study the massacres and the forced exodus of muslims from the area. But hey, maybe they add that bit to the qu'ran and 2000 years from now they can start a BS country based solely on what they think their relligion entitles them.

[Gertrudius]

I'm not even getting into why those numbers are BS (although just one person killed like that is too much in my book) but it is a whole different game of course. If the israelis tried to pull that off in an open genocide they would be toast. Hence the slow marginalization and removal of palestinians. You seem to like statistics, then why don't you go over what is the average palestinian economical situation and think why it happens to be so.

Those are the most commonly accepted numbers, and as such are perfectly reliable in a format such as this. I even specifically noted that the forced segregation of Jewish communities seems to mirror the situation in Gaza quite well, so I don't understand what your point is considering I already addressed it in a light that is favorable to a portion of your assertion. But that's a precursor to the holocaust and I simply pointed out that your assertion is not comparable on a numerical level. And I wasn't doing an analysis of the economic situation in Gaza, other than how it relates to your comparison, so again, whats your point?

And, what is this "latest offensive"? The thing is going on ever since Israel started. If you want to go over numbers go to the whole effects of jewish colonization of what is now known as "Israel". Study the massacres and the forced exodus of muslims from the area. But hey, maybe they add that bit to the qu'ran and 2000 years from now they can start a BS country based solely on what they think their relligion entitles them.

If you want to do a broader comparison, then we will have to take a look at treatment of Jews in Europe for a comparable time frame. That is why I only took the numbers for Israels latest actions in Gaza, because there are not any significant numbers of dead, except for a small spat in February 2008 that fits the appropriate time frame. And if you don't want to do that, then it shows an obvious lack of sincerity in your comparison, because you only want to use it if it fit's a specific outcome.

Again, you make the assumption that Israel somehow equals Jews as a whole. If that's not your intent, then please quit using the word Jew at all, because it seems to complicates matters. Also, since when is it OK to generalize an entire group of people by the actions of some that happen to be of the same religion? Also, you claim that the justification for Israels existence is Torah based. From what I've studied, the founding of Israel had far more to do with a massive influx of Jews from post war Europe, which sparked ethnic violence on both sides. Europe's guilty conscience also allowed for this movement to continue and vuala! we find ourselves in the present. Only fringe elements and nut jobs have claimed a right to the land based on scriptural evidence.

Please don't continue these blatant generalizations that not only are a discredit to you, but continue to misrepresent the situation. I'm tired of defending Israel from unjust criticism, because there is so much that can be legitimately criticized. I think you have the idea that I am an Israel supporter, or condone their actions, but this is not the case. I simply point out the obvious fallacies in some of these arguments, and you'll note that I do this to the pro Israel crowd to, especially when someone brings up scriptural justification.

Take it easy,

[Visna]

I'm not even getting into why those numbers are BS (although just one person killed like that is too much in my book) but it is a whole different game of course.

I'm genuinely interested, what makes those numbers BS?

If you want to go over numbers go to the whole effects of jewish colonization of what is now known as "Israel".

You do know that it was the actions of supposedly enlightened Europeans that got this "colonization" going in the first place, non? There were only something like 800,000 Jews living in Palestine in 1947, many of them refugees.

Study the massacres and the forced exodus of muslims from the area. But hey, maybe they add that bit to the qu'ran and 2000 years from now they can start a BS country based solely on what they think their relligion entitles them.

The Qu'ran can't be added to anymore.
And a bad conscience and a desire to get rid of this mess was part of the motivation behind the creation of Israel. Only a handful of extremists use scripture to defend it's creation and existance.

[Portuguese Rebel]

Again, you make the assumption that Israel somehow equals Jews as a whole. If that's not your intent, then please quit using the word Jew at all, because it seems to complicates matters.

How many jews do you believe agree with the sentence "there is no justification for the creation of the state of Israel"? After you give me that fabulous number i'll exclude those particular jews from the argument happily...

If you want to do a broader comparison, then we will have to take a look at treatment of Jews in Europe for a comparable time frame. That is why I only took the numbers for Israels latest actions in Gaza, because there are not any significant numbers of dead, except for a small spat in February 2008 that fits the appropriate time frame. And if you don't want to do that, then it shows an obvious lack of sincerity in your comparison, because you only want to use it if it fit's a specific outcome.

So if the nazis did it more slowly it would have been ok? Is that what you're saying?

Also, you claim that the justification for Israels existence is Torah based. From what I've studied, the founding of Israel had far more to do with a massive influx of Jews from post war Europe, which sparked ethnic violence on both sides. Europe's guilty conscience also allowed for this movement to continue and vuala! we find ourselves in the present. Only fringe elements and nut jobs have claimed a right to the land based on scriptural evidence.

Sorry, that's utter BS. The SOLE reason why the jews decided on that piece of land was due to scripture. What other atractive could that muslim ruled land have? Plus it was not only a "guilty conscience" that led to this. The soon to be Israelis did terrorist attacks and threatened western powers with more to come if that particular piece of land was not given to them. You can google up "King David Hotel" and "Stern Gang" if you're interested.

The UK particularly was exhausted from WWII so they caved in. What was it to them if they had that place right?!
After the creation of Israel itself all the terrorists from the 40's were under an amnesty. Israel is a terrorist state from the beguining.

Please don't continue these blatant generalizations that not only are a discredit to you, but continue to misrepresent the situation.

Like i said, find me jews willing to sign a "erase Israel because it was a mistake" petition and i'll stop calling what they call themselves. My guess is you won't find a single jew willing to say this, so i'm pretty confortable generalizing on that. You just have to prove me wrong. Should be pretty easy!

I'm genuinely interested, what makes those numbers BS?

The total numbers were not calculated at all. The estimates of the 6 million jews killed were obtained incorrectly. Modern numbers are lower and totally more consistent with what happened post war (in which the number of jews recovered to its former number way too quickly, specially accounting for the mass emigration to the US and Israel). the truth is nobody really knows how many died. The range is calculated from 1.5 to 4 million jews (the soviets brought the number 4 million to the Nuremberg trials, so, it is the only officially respected estimate). However it was still an horrible atrocity that should never ever happen again. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a holocaust denier. But i find politically manipulated numbers to be unbearable.

[Visna]

The total numbers were not calculated at all. The estimates of the 6 million jews killed were obtained incorrectly. Modern numbers are lower and totally more consistent with what happened post war (in which the number of jews recovered to its former number way too quickly, specially accounting for the mass emigration to the US and Israel). the truth is nobody really knows how many died. The range is calculated from 1.5 to 4 million jews (the soviets brought the number 4 million to the Nuremberg trials, so, it is the only officially respected estimate). However it was still an horrible atrocity that should never ever happen again. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a holocaust denier. But i find politically manipulated numbers to be unbearable.

Really? And what "modern numbers" might that be?
Just because the deathtoll at Auschwitz for example was lowered from the original estimates, doesn't mean that the Einsatzgruppen shot less. The fact remains that roughly 2/3 of the European Jews mysteriously disappeared from 1939-1945. This is using Nazi estimates, Allied and Soviet estimates and the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiery, Appendix III. A comission set up, not to investigate the number of deaths in the Holocaust, but to come to an agreement upon policies regarding Jewish emigration to Palestine.
So unless you can come up with a reasonable explanation for where those roughly 6 million Jews disappeared to the number stands.