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Thread: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

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  1. #1
    Akrotatos's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    SKOPJE, Macedonia - As part of a stunning new homegrown ideology of history and identity based on Alexander the Great, this capital city's main square may soon boast a huge new statue of the ancient conqueror.
    Two years ago, the national airport was renamed after Alexander, infuriating Greece.
    In January, despite a recent Greek nixing of Macedonia's NATO bid over the airport name, the ruling nationalists here changed the name of its main roadway to Alexander of Macedon Highway.
    In Macedonia, it is becoming all Alexander the Great, all the time. Ahead of Sunday's presidential elections, the ruling party's Alexander ideology is seen as fantastic, even by Balkan standards.
    In an intense media campaign, locals are told that ethnic Macedonians are the proud direct descendants of Alexander, and thus a people responsible for spawning the white race of planet Earth, from the Caucasus "to the seas off Japan," according to a public service spot on national TV.
    The "Alexander-mania," as critics call it, is partly a vote-getting strategy by the ruling party, known by its initials VMRO. Doubts exist as to whether party leaders actually believe the claims, but they are being sold as truth. The failure last spring to get a clear NATO invitation prompted fury in Skopje, and the Alexander campaign is seen as an effort to up the ante.
    By pushing its thumb further into the already sore eye of Greece, both NATO and EU membership for the small, landlocked state remains in limbo. Macedonia is also distracted from reducing tensions with its sizable Albanian minority community following a brief ethnic war in 2001, diplomats say.
    The dispute with Greece, largely unchanged since 1991, centers on a fight over the use of "Macedonia" as the country's name. Greece wants a name that doesn't include or at least deemphasizes "Macedonia," which Greeks say is their own. The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia says its name is its own sovereign business. Negotiations have been endless.
    For years, Greek demands were seen as cock-eyed and petty in diplomatic circles. Yet Macedonia has been losing sympathy as it roars out heritage claims on Alexander.
    "If the name is the condition of our survival, which it seems to be, we are very far from reaching our strategic aims: NATO and the EU," says former Macedonian Foreign Minister Denko Maleski. "The new way of thinking about history is keeping tensions alive. We are a new nation, liberal and international, suddenly veering into the 19th century."
    A poll last month showed that 97 percent of ethnic Macedonians favored staying out of the EU if it meant compromising on the name.
    "The name dispute is more than a bilateral issue between Skopje and Athens. It risks derailing the main strategy of both NATO and the EU for stabilizing Macedonia," says a recent report from the International Crisis Group.
    Some diplomats frame Sunday's elections as a vote for a president who may push Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski for a name resolution versus a nationalist who would not. Right now, it appears that VMRO's George Ivanov, an architect of the Alexander discourse, is set to win big. The opposition is in disarray, and Macedonia could end up with a one-party state.
    "The entire nationalism hysteria, which only few question as most media get huge sums of money through government advertising, serves not only as a distraction from serious problems ... but has created an atmosphere that makes compromise difficult. It reminds me a bit of the madness of Serbia in the '90s, though not on the same scale, when Serbs spoke of themselves as 'the heavenly people,' " says Ana Petruseva, managing editor of Balkan Insight, in Skopje.
    Indee, Macedonia's bold claim to be the taproot of Western civilization is daily media fare.
    Last summer, the government flew in members of Pakistan's Hunza tribe, considered lost descendants of Alexander, to tour the country. Startled and pleased Hunza were greeted at Alexander airport with flowers and treated like long lost cousins as they disported across the nation, cameras in tow.
    Even "God" has gotten involved. A nine-minute TV ad starts with a petition from Macedonia to the heavens: "Our neighbors distributed thousands of books across the world, containing false history and portraying a wrong picture about Macedonia. ... Only you know our pain." The Almighty then responds: "From you, Macedonians, descendants of Macedon, I conceived the white race. All that stretches to the seas off Japan is conceived from your genes."
    Sinisa-Jakov Marusic, a columnist for Balkan Insight, cheekily observed, "So there you have it! What better proof than God himself?"
    Beyond theatrics, the new program deeply troubles many scholars and intellectuals here – who are being sidelined – for its promulgation of myth as truth. The new taxpayer-funded Alexander ideology has no serious texts.
    Unlike Serbia's Kosovo story, based on centuries of poetry and legend, the Macedonian ideology is being both invented and presented at the same time. There is no outside scholarly consensus, no textual tradition; the result is a kind of history-free history. The top-down, debate-free imposition of the new history is itself seen as illiberal and authoritarian.
    The new program deeply troubles many scholars here. "What is the content of 'Alexanderization?'" asks Irena Stefoska, a Byzantine scholar at the Institute of National History here. "Who knows? It is a new reading of history completely different from the previous, not done from an academic point of view, but from a purely political view."
    Alexander is considered one of the greatest military leaders of all time. Born in the Greek city of Pella in 356 BC, his conquests extended to most of his known world by the time of his death at age 32. He opened up Greek civilization from the Mediterranean to India, and is regarded as the first to link Europe, Asia, and Africa.
    "Alexander was the captain general of all the Hellenes. He spoke Greek. He went to war on behalf of the Hellenes. No one in the ancient, medieval, or modern world has disputed this," says Michael Wood, a historian and British filmmaker who has produced a work on Alexander and has another in the making.
    "The Macedonian state claim has no basis in history; it is a state-sponsored myth. I tell my Macedonian and Greek friends to ignore it," Mr. Wood adds.
    State archaeologists in Skopje and Athens, however, are busy unearthing ancient Hellenic artifacts, which are then presented as evidence of Alexander heritage. Advocates of this new history leap from the present day to ancient times, ignoring Ottoman, Slavonian, and Byzantine periods when the Balkan peoples migrated and mingled.
    "The problem is that no one today can be the direct descendants of ancient civilizations," says Ms. Stefoska. "Macedonians are Slavs. Our Slavonic heritage is accepted by historians."
    Several years ago, VMRO officials claimed that Macedonia's majority population had an ethnic Bulgarian or Slavic origin.
    A chief fear here is a scenario of partition – of north Kosovo Serbs in the Mitrovica area joining Serbia proper, which could push Macedonian and Kosovar Albanians into a union, breaking up Macedonia.
    So far, ethnic Albanians here have been patient over the Macedonia-Greece dispute. Albanian parties are in the ruling coalition. Yet the patience may not be unlimited, senior diplomats say.
    Artan Grubi, head of an Albanian civil society organization, says, "Most Albanians will tell you they have nothing against building a Macedonian identity. But they don't want to suffer because of it. At the moment, the policies of this government are moving us further from Europe."



    http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0321/p01s01-wogn.html

    This gem in particular is priceless
    In an intense media campaign, locals are told that ethnic Macedonians are the proud direct descendants of Alexander, and thus a people responsible for spawning the white race of planet Earth, from the Caucasus "to the seas off Japan," according to a public service spot on national TV.
    Gems of TWC:

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    News flash but groups like al-Qaeda or Taliban are not Islamist.

  2. #2
    DekuTrash's Avatar Human Directional
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    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrotatos View Post
    responsible for spawning the white race of planet Earth






    there is only one race.......
    Well that's how I see it anyway
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; May 07, 2009 at 07:44 PM.



  3. #3

    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by DekuTrash View Post
    Fool there is only one race.......
    the same clique said over and over. I guess if you say it enough it might come true, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by DekuTrash View Post
    Well that's how I see it anyway


    Ya? Really? Amazing. We have a break through. A liberal sees it a certain way which automatically makes it true. Now to be a true liberal you need to go and become a teacher and keep repeating it in the hallways of your college/university and disguise it in your course that has nothing to do with sociology or race. Economics is always a favorite. Remember to rub in the guilt trip onto white students that its their fault for ghettos and poor minorities.

  4. #4

    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigran of Sasoun View Post
    the same clique said over and over. I guess if you say it enough it might come true, I guess.





    Ya? Really? Amazing. We have a break through. A liberal sees it a certain way which automatically makes it true. Now to be a true liberal you need to go and become a teacher and keep repeating it in the hallways of your college/university and disguise it in your course that has nothing to do with sociology or race. Economics is always a favorite. Remember to rub in the guilt trip onto white students that its their fault for ghettos and poor minorities.

    There is only one race, the human race ( or Homo sapiens). We can interbreed with one another and produce fertile children, therefore we are one species. And you know the one splitting us up here? You, the Ultra nutty right wing conservative. Oh, but wait. A conservative sees it one, way, so it must be true. Now, to be a true conservative, you need to become a hate spouting pastor or politician and disguise it in a course that has everything to do with religion. Christianity is a good one. Remember to throw your nonsense into science classes, and force kids to read your view of everything. You probably want creationism taught in school as well.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Isn't generalising fun?
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    A Carthagian AAR about the life of a Libyan Phoenician soldier in the army of Carthage, giving his own account and personal opinions of the battles and conquests Carthage undertakes.

    I just know the epicness will blow your minds!!

  5. #5

    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by cottontail View Post
    There is only one race, the human race
    Perhaps to an idiot, but for someone who does not suffer a mental disorder, they would realise the species is that of humanity and that races exist within it. Not unsimilar to a breed of canine within their species (a poodle can reproduce with a wolf, for example). Learn basic biology instead of listening to your television.

    Quote Originally Posted by ComnenusTheOne View Post
    How obvious it is that you dont know nothing..... Serbians and Croatians hardly share the same genetics with the ancient people from there, Bulgarians have nothing to do with Thracians, i mean NOTHING and civilisation didnt come from the steppes at all, go open a book better.

    I guess its a nice way to show your respect towards that great Greek hero. Greece should be thankful that you're making statues about her kings in your country.
    Care to explain where Serbs came from? They share the same DNA of the people living there.

    The variation at 28 Y-chromosome biallelic markers was analysed in 256 males (90 Croats, 81 Serbs and 85 Bosniacs) from Bosnia-Herzegovina. An important shared feature between the three ethnic groups is the high frequency of the "Palaeolithic" European-specific haplogroup (Hg) I, a likely signature of a Balkan population re-expansion after the Last Glacial Maximum. This haplogroup is almost completely represented by the sub-haplogroup I-P37 whose frequency is, however, higher in the Croats (approximately 71%) than in Bosniacs (approximately 44%) and Serbs (approximately 31%). Other rather frequent haplogroups are E (approximately 15%) and J (approximately 7%), which are considered to have arrived from the Middle East in Neolithic and post-Neolithic times, and R-M17 (approximately 14%), which probably marked several arrivals, at different times, from eastern Eurasia. Hg E, almost exclusively represented by its subclade E-M78, is more common in the Serbs (approximately 20%) than in Bosniacs (approximately 13%) and Croats (approximately 9%), and Hg J, observed in only one Croat, encompasses approximately 9% of the Serbs and approximately 12% of the Bosniacs, where it shows its highest diversification. By contrast, Hg R-M17 displays similar frequencies in all three groups. On the whole, the three main groups of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in spite of some quantitative differences, share a large fraction of the same ancient gene pool distinctive for the Balkan area.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract

    Note what I have bolded.

    Bulgarians, from my knowledge, are the same people who migrated from the Eastern Black Sea region to form the people of Thrace. It was just a second migration (obviously brought cultural differences, but same racial group). Bulgarians I have spoken to back this up. Prove me wrong if you can.

    As for civilisation, the Kurgan Hearth Theory explains the spread of Indo-European civilisation, language, and culture throughout the world. There is plenty of material to look up on it; here is a diagramme:


  6. #6
    wudang_clown's Avatar Fire Is Inspirational
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    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Kogen View Post
    Care to explain where Serbs came from? They share the same DNA of the people living there.

    Note what I have bolded.
    They don't share the same DNA. They "share a large fraction of the same ancient gene pool distinctive for the Balkan area". "A large fraction" - there is a difference. It's funny, how you bolded the phrase and overinterpretated it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kogen View Post
    Bulgarians, from my knowledge, are the same people who migrated from the Eastern Black Sea region to form the people of Thrace. It was just a second migration (obviously brought cultural differences, but same racial group). Bulgarians I have spoken to back this up. Prove me wrong if you can.
    Bulgarians or Bulgars? How do you know, what DNA Thracians had?

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  7. #7

    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by cottontail View Post
    There is only one race, the human race ( or Homo sapiens).
    There are many races one species.

    Quote Originally Posted by cottontail View Post
    We can interbreed with one another and produce fertile children, therefore we are one species.
    Thats right. One Species many races.

    Quote Originally Posted by cottontail View Post
    And you know the one splitting us up here?
    "splitting us"? Who? in what way? how?

    Quote Originally Posted by cottontail View Post
    You,
    Me? Damn! I have influence.

    Quote Originally Posted by cottontail View Post
    the Ultra nutty right wing conservative.
    Lets read that again and see exactly what it says.

    I, someone that disagrees with the liberal view on race thus making me an "ultra nutty". Not wrong you see, but crazy, incapable of logical thought.

    It also makes me a "right wing conservative" which is like worse then second hand smoke or something.

    But then again, what is new with mindset of liberals? If you disagree with them, they will not give you an argument, they will attack your character and your brain function.

    But then again there is nothing wrong with being right wing, or conservative so I take no offense. There is also nothing wrong with liberalism, at least the liberalism of the past not the so-call intolerant one of the present.

    Quote Originally Posted by cottontail View Post
    Oh, but wait.
    Finally you saw your foully and...

    Quote Originally Posted by cottontail View Post
    A conservative sees it one, way, so it must be true.
    I never said that.

    Quote Originally Posted by cottontail View Post
    Now, to be a true conservative, you need to become a hate spouting pastor
    So the only thing that pastors spout is hate?

    What exactly is he saying?

    Liberal thought process at its best.

    Quote Originally Posted by cottontail View Post
    or politician
    Yes because only Conservatives become politicians

    Quote Originally Posted by cottontail View Post
    and disguise it in a course that has everything to do with religion.
    And exactly what platform will that be at? I don't know what exactly you are talking about. What course? What has to do with religion? The pastor spouting hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by cottontail View Post
    Christianity is a good one.
    How EXACTLY do you know if I am a religious and if I am that I am a Christian? Lol talk about preset bias.


    Quote Originally Posted by cottontail View Post
    Remember to throw your nonsense into science classes, and force kids to read your view of everything.
    What nonsense? What the are you talking about? What class? Whats my agenda? You have figured out I am a "ultra nutty right wing conservative" and I am a religious Christian who does not believe in evolution and wants creationism and Christianity to be taught in all school and every single class, because I said what exactly that made you think that?

    Like I said, Talk about preset Bias. Don't worry you are not the first liberal I have encountered who has said alot about nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by cottontail View Post
    You probably want creationism taught in school as well.
    LOL TALK ABOUT PRESET BIAS.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Isn't generalising fun?
    [/QUOTE]

    No it makes you out to being a total baffoon.

    The difference is that what I said about Colleges and Universities is absolutely true. If you are not a liberal you will not do well in College or University. If you write a paper that the instructor does not agree with you fail. There is no hiding that liberal ideas are presented in alot and many courses in college and universities and it is even guidelines for many college and universities to disguise them in class.

    If a instructor wants to start up a new class they have to present to the board how they will tackle issues such as feminism, race, "equality", etc.

  8. #8

    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by DekuTrash View Post
    Im no Liberal

    Yet this does not detract from anything I said.

    If you believe you are not a liberal because you do not identify as such is moot. There are 6 billion+ people in the world, it is impossible to categorize everyone under 3 categories of Left, Center or Right. Its the overall ideas and not a single one that makes someone liberal.

    And this one idea of race effects everything from Affirmative Action to Immigration.

  9. #9
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Lulz, ol' Alex spawned the white race did he? FYROM grows harder and harder to take seriously with each passing day

  10. #10

    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    Lulz, ol' Alex spawned the white race did he?
    Alexander did spread the white race to corners of the world that did not have them. In Afghanistan, Pakistan and India where there are Europid ethnic groups that to this day claim decedents from Alexander's Armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    FYROM grows harder and harder to take seriously with each passing day
    Oh? I see you are towing the line. FYROM?

    How about we Call United States, Former British Colony of Americas: FBCA.

  11. #11
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    In an intense media campaign, locals are told that ethnic Macedonians are the proud direct descendants of Alexander
    LOL, Descendants?
    Did they forget he was gay and childless?



  12. #12
    Faramir D'Andunie's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Silence you, we all know they are the result of mass cloning from Alexander's own DNA.
    Any community that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe that they are in good company.

  13. #13

    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    LOL, Descendants?
    Did they forget he was gay and childless?
    Not to mention they're Slavs who moved in AFTER Alexander....

  14. #14
    John I Tzimisces's Avatar Get born again.
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    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    LOL, Descendants?
    Did they forget he was gay and childless?
    Nuh uh! He had a son that was born the fall after he died but was probably killed in captivity by one of the successors in his adolescence...

  15. #15

    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    LOL, Descendants?
    Did they forget he was gay and childless?
    Just,... Alexander was neither gay nor childless. The cultural bisexuality of the time had nothing to do with the modern definition of homosexuality and him having children is obvious prove that he did not have problems with fancying women.

    Other than that: Who actually cares? If it makes the Macedonians feel better... good riddance.
    "Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
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  16. #16

    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Balkans + nationalism. What a splendid form of entertainment.
    In fact, Alexander fathered both the Greeks and the Macedonians and thus they inherited his gayness and his tendency to have cissy fights because of his unresolved daddy issues.
    It's all true, go read a history book, like Dianetics, if are ignorant.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    [/Obvious sarcassssssssssm]
    Die ist ein Kinnerhunder und zwei Mackel über und der Bitteschön ist den Wunderhaus sprechensie!
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  17. #17
    Yojimbo's Avatar Pig tail Sock
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    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    LOL, Descendants?
    Did they forget he was gay and childless?
    Dang beat me to it

    And yeah as much as I enjoy reading about the guy this is simple election vote getting pap.

    Funny though!
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  18. #18

    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Oh good, a thread about the Balkans.

  19. #19
    Faramir D'Andunie's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Oh good, a thread about the Balkans.
    And as usual you are here to complain! Fascinating!
    Any community that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe that they are in good company.

  20. #20

    Default Re: 2,300 years later, 'Alexander-mania' grips Macedonia

    everything is so predictable!
    I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you F___ with me, I'll kill you all.
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