Greek Cities Strat help needed

[Total Roach]

So brand new to XGM, playing Greek Cities M/M (sorry if I'm not hardcore enough, one day) have just wiped out Macedon and wondering what to do next. I have all these Greek Independent states around me and I was thinking about bribing them or buying them.Gaulish Independents just to the north and Thrace next to them. I'm going to consolidate my position and recruit a proper field army over the next few turns so any useful ideas for what to do with it are welcome. What would be a good full stack army from City Barracks level?

As a P.S. blown away so far, excellent mod on 1st impressions, hope it continue like this

[GoldShield Guard]

So brand new to XGM, playing Greek Cities M/M (sorry if I'm not hardcore enough, one day) have just wiped out Macedon and wondering what to do next. I have all these Greek Independent states around me and I was thinking about bribing them or buying them.Gaulish Independents just to the north and Thrace next to them. I'm going to consolidate my position and recruit a proper field army over the next few turns so any useful ideas for what to do with it are welcome. What would be a good full stack army from City Barracks level?

As a P.S. blown away so far, excellent mod on 1st impressions, hope it continue like this

Well, in my campaign and exactly when I was in your position, I attacked the Indie Greeks, took Thermon, Avracia and then straight to Tarentum. This is vital, to cut the progress of Romans to the Balkans. It is better to deal with them as soon as possble, before they become too strong. From my experience, the Romans are the toughest enemies for Greeks. Also occupy every Greek city you take, including Tarentum, do not exterminate or enslave, they are pure Greek cities and they do not have unrest, so they will give you a lot lot of money from taxies in the next years, if you just occupy them.

At the same time, with the money you will have from the Greek cities of Indie Greeks, recruit a second stack and go for Pergamum and afterwards the other Indie Greek Cities in the north in Minor Asia. That way you will develop the naval trade in the Aegean and you will rake in cash.

Be careful of the Indie Gauls north of Pella. If they are in war with Thrace (in my campaign they were from the beginning) they won't attack you and your northen border will be safe, until they fall from Thracians. By that time, you will have enough money to recruit a third full stack and attack to Thrace. If you do not do that, Thrace will attack you sooner or later, so it is better to do it in your terms.

As for the full stack composition, I have concluded, after a lot lot of battles, to this: 3 phalangites, 4 hoplites (spartans and athenians of course are preferable), 4 thorakitai (the most versatile and useful unit for Greeks), 2 thyreoforoi, 1 archer, 1 General, 2 militia cavalry, 2 light cavalry:
MCav.Th H H Ph Ph Ph H H Th Mcav
........Th.. Thr..Arc....Thr...Th
LCav..........Gen..................LCav

MCav= Militia Cavalry
Th= Thorakitai
H=Hoplites
Ph=Phalangites
Thr=Thureoforoi
Arc=Archers
LCav=Light Cavalry
Gen=General

The AI will almost always attack to MCav, which you withdrow behind, and then the enemy units suffer the most from javelins from Thorakitai and Thureoforoi. Thorakitai are excellent troops to hold the line to the flank attacks of AI, or to attack fast to the flanks of the enemies. Phalangites in the centre hold it firmly, as hoplites, more versatile, defend or attack at your choice.

I hope I helped you!

[Lobo Solitario]

I would recommend going after the Independent Greeks (Rhodes is a juicy target, but it has a garrison script*, so watch out) since they have the same culture as you - if you start conquering barbarian settlements, you'll have some unrest issues and will have to build Western Civilised colonies there at some point, which will cost a fair amount of money. With the Independent Greek cities you avoid the culture penalty, religion(civilisation type) penalty and the cost of building colonies(which weigh in at over 8k for the first tier) - as a side bonus, a lot of their cities include unique buildings such as the Oracle at Delphi, which are always nice to have.

GoldShield Guard's army composition looks good to me, and he's been at this longer than I have, so he probably knows what he's doing Thorakitai are certainly very versatile and useful troops. My armies follow similar lines, although I generally have five phalangites and less hoplites, and I prefer militia cavalry over light cavalry for their ability to harrass the enemy at range.

*Cities with a garrison script (Rome, Antioch, Rhodes, Carthage that I know of) will spawn a full stack of veteran troops after one turn of siege, to make them a challenge to take. You can bypass this by attacking in one turn by using onagers or spies.

[GoldShield Guard]

GoldShield Guard's army composition looks good to me, and he's been at this longer than I have, so he probably knows what he's doing Thorakitai are certainly very versatile and useful troops. My armies follow similar lines, although I generally have five phalangites and less hoplites, and I prefer militia cavalry over light cavalry for their ability to harrass the enemy at range.

Phalangites are good only in defending. Attacking (I am talking always for open field) is impossible with them, because they are very very slow moving. So in attacks I only use my hoplites and the other troops, in the final engagement (charging), except of course if the enemy attacks too. That's why I need 4 hoplites.

[Clewsy1988]

Phalangites are good only in defending.

I strongly disagree. Phalangites are just as affective in attacking situations if used the correct way. I always try to have at least six units of them. Have them in a line about 4/5 ranks deep then group them, this alows you to push them forward keeping there phalanx down. Then use hoplites to protect the flanks. There are very few units that will break through the line of Phalangites, giving your cavalry time to get the rear charge. I also try to stay away from the exotic hoplites ddue to retraining perposes.

[Lobo Solitario]

My Greek and Macedonian campaigns have both been fought mainly in the field, with little city combat other than crushing a few scattered survivors from the field battles. In these field battles, whether attacking or defending, I have had no issues at all with my phalanx line. Once the armies are in close proximity, either the enemy is goaded into a charge by my peltasts, or the phalanx line grinds into them anyway, or it holds while I attack the wings and then engages the disrupted enemy formation on a unit to unit basis.

Obviously different enemies require different tactics and troop compositions, but against other Hellenic factions, I've certainly found the phalanx line to be effective in all my field battles.

[AchillesXX]

In my GCS campaign I found that their army was very solid and held up well vs all others. I like to make my Greek armies mostly composed of infantry, and they have some excellent choices for this.

Phalangites: Very good in defending or capturing cities. Less good on the open field where the AI (as dumb as it is) is usually smart enought to avoid them. They make a good unit for the center of your line though.

Hoplites: Even Greek Hoplites are very solid soldiers. The more specialized Athenian, Periokoi, Syracusan, and Sacred Band are even better. Good for almost any situation, their only draw back is their lack of a throwing weapon. Of course, SRG are beasts, and should never be allowed to be destroyed entirely in battle - 1 turn retraining times ftw.

Thorakiti: Nice soldiers similar to Hastati. I think that Marines are even better for expanding your empire because they are exactly the same unit but get trained at the largest port and not a barrack - so, they can be retrained in any city by mid to end game.

Therophori: Spelling almost certainly wrong here. Nice heavy pelstasts, but they do not skirmish. A shame. I kept two units retrained throughout my campaing though, and by the time they had gold chevrones, they were beasts. AP is very nice.

[GoldShield Guard]

Hoplites: Even Greek Hoplites are very solid soldiers. The more specialized Athenian, Periokoi, Syracusan, and Sacred Band are even better. Good for almost any situation, their only draw back is their lack of a throwing weapon. Of course, SRG are beasts, and should never be allowed to be destroyed entirely in battle - 1 turn retraining times ftw.

That's why I always put a unit of thyreophoroi exactly behind them, as you can see in my draw above. If my hoplites are attacked by a javelin unit, like thorakitai, my thyreophoroi undertake the mission to deplete them before they are engaged.

[TM Is Back]

Well, what I do is the following.

When I've conquered Macedon I take Ambracia and Salona. After that I take Rhodos. At the same time I attack Byzantium. Should Trace attack me, I counter their attacks, conquer them and colonize the area. If they don't attack, I go into Asia-Minor. I take the Indi-Greek cities there, Nicromedia and the Seleucid cities. Then on to Antioch. Should Pontus attack, I destroy them and colonize the area. When I have captured Antioch, Damascus is next. Then on to Palmyra and Seleucia. Then Hatra, Susa and the city above there, forgot the name. Then back west taking all the Seleucid cities west of the Susa-mountains.

Now about Rome. I never invade Italie before the Marian Reforms have happened. Should Rome attack me, which will happen anyway, I will defend. That's all I'll do. When the Marian reforms hit, I wait another 10-20 years. Then when I have made sure that most of my borders are secure or that atleast an campaign into the enemy's lands are going according to plan, I invade Italie. I sent two stacks to take Terentum, and one for Syracuse. That Syracusean stack quickly takes the whole of Sicily and the move north. Then, when Tarentum has fallen, I advance to Cannae and Capua. The Romans then have sent some stack to deal with this treath, so at exactly that moment, two other stacks(if possible) will attack Italie from the north. Then it is just a way of defeating the Roman uber-stacks and taking Italie as my lands.

When that is done and The Ptolomaic Empire has not fallen yet, I take them. At the same time I invade Armenia and the Bosporus. Scytia is next. Then when the stacks are ready for it, Germania and Gaul await. I attack from the east and then move through Germania, then Gaul towards Iberia. There, Carthage has probably settled. They are next to fall. I take the islands of the Mediteranian and march into Iberia. Then it is just fighting all the way to Carthage.

Only Parthia and Bactria remain. Some stacks attack Parthia from the north west, and some from the southwest. When Parthia is done, then take Bactria.

Well that's it xD

[Lobo Solitario]

Wow, it's like Route Planner for world domination - "when you reach Antioch, carry on to Damascus. Then turn left and conquer for a hundred miles"

Do you use specialised armies to face the different factions, or a standard army composition vs all, or just whatever you have to hand?

[Total Roach]

Great info, thanks everyone. I am using the BI.exe so have the ability for the hoplites to use shield wall, I have noticed however that this reduces the length of front they can cover as they close ranks, how and when is it best to use this ability?

Also having to change my tactics greatly from Vanilla in that my army would normally have around six units of archers 2-4 heavy cav and 9-11 heavy infantry so I am hoping I might learn to play more historically. I have kept the 1HP system just now to reduce the shock of an almost different game but in taking 1-2 archers only how is it best to use them? Are they only in essence counter battery to your opponents archers?

[GoldShield Guard]

Great info, thanks everyone. I am using the BI.exe so have the ability for the hoplites to use shield wall, I have noticed however that this reduces the length of front they can cover as they close ranks, how and when is it best to use this ability?

Also having to change my tactics greatly from Vanilla in that my army would normally have around six units of archers 2-4 heavy cav and 9-11 heavy infantry so I am hoping I might learn to play more historically. I have kept the 1HP system just now to reduce the shock of an almost different game but in taking 1-2 archers only how is it best to use them? Are they only in essence counter battery to your opponents archers?

I use always only 1 archer, because in XGM they are by far weaker than vanilla. They have less number of arrows (volleys) and they are more inaccurate. The full volley from one unit of archers is not enough to kill an enemy skirmisher unit! Even the Cretan archers! So their use is to deal with the enemy archers, if they are present, or a skirmisher unit to avoid its javelins. And of course the best use is to kill the damned Horse Archers, especially the damned median cavalry!

[Lobo Solitario]

I have ammo issues with Greek and Cretan archers as well, which makes them rather specialised - something to goad the enemy into attacking, or to soften up an important enemy unit. Syrian archers from Antioch and nearby regions are great though, I will happily include three or four units of these beauties in my armies.

As for flanking and phalanxes, longer phalanx lines make it much harder to flank your army - I believe this was one of their main functions in real battles. As Epirus I didn't have any issues with flanking by the Romans - although walking into a pila hail is bad news. I have been playing on M battle difficulty though.

[TM Is Back]

Wow, it's like Route Planner for world domination - "when you reach Antioch, carry on to Damascus. Then turn left and conquer for a hundred miles"

Do you use specialised armies to face the different factions, or a standard army composition vs all, or just whatever you have to hand?

Well, I always fight with some kind of standard armies. But not entirely. For example, when fighting TSE I use a normal army, with 4-6 Phalangites, 6 Hoplites and Thorakitai(together 6) some Thureoporoi, 1-3 Generals, and the rest normal cavalry.

For Rome it is quite the same.

For Parthia however, this does not work properly. I need other kind of armies there. For example, very heavy armoured armies to face the arrows, or a army with light and swift units and some heavy troops.

That's what I want to use, mostly I fill the gaps in my armies with local mercenries.

[Grimbold]

I have a question that fits in this thread.

Not doing what Goldshield Guard suggested, harming roman progress as soon as possible ( Tarentum and stuff) i now find myself sort of trapped.

I was entertained defeating full stacks of PtoEgyptians at a pass near their city ( the one to the right of Hallicarnassus) untill the romans decided to break their alliance with me and attack my northren cities, Pella, the one north of Pela and Ambracia. I did leave a buffer zone, the city north of Ambracia, Salona i believe which had an almost full stack of Indie Greeks, but the Romans conquered it eventually and they turned their attention towards me.

So at this point im kinda of trapped. I had 3 stacks in Asia minor ripiing the Egyptians armies apart but now ill rly need them to hold off the romans, cause thats what i think im in, a defensive position. The roman invasion will force a defensive attitude both on Greecen and on my territories in Asia Minor, unless by some miracle the Pto Egy accept a ceasefire.

I lost the city north of Pella to the romans but managed to successfuly hold of the sieges of Pela and Ambracia... phalanxes and hoplites on tight streets = Urban Thermopylae (spelling?).

So the question is prety obvious, what solutions you would suggest in this situation?

[gaius_caesar]

you could use force diplomacy on the Ptolemiac Empire so that they would accept the ceasefire, after that you can finally focus on Rome

[Grimbold]

Well without using FD, the PtoE accepted my ceasefire....i wonder why. Meanwhile on the other front im successfully repelling every siege on Ambracia and Pella.

So i guess everything is good for now, except the economy, went from 15k profit per turn to 2k.

[magraev]

Just don't leave your eastern front too unprotected or your peace with egypt will surely crumble.

You probably need more trade, and losing rome as a trading partner has hurt you. Make friends with old enemies and trade should blossom again (at least in the east).

I hope you can contain those pesky romans.

[Grimbold]

the Romans are not being a problem. I got 3 stacks on my northern borders ( Pella / Ambracia ) and every army they throw at me gets wiped out.. gotta love destroying 3500 roman armies . Add to me conquering Tarentum and destroying every single building of the city and the siege of Salona. Guess thats why they requested a ceasefire, although they broke it in the next turn ^^.

As for the economy, slight improvement. 5-7k profits and established trade with some barbarian factions.

But ye, kinda hate to be on the defensive on the campaign map...like to save that for the battles

[Barend]

If you van hold out in Asia Minor and the north of Greece, try to send 1 or 2 stacks to southern Italy. Maybe you can take Tarentum and Syracuse and fight the Romans on two fronts. This will keep their armies divided and the pressure on your borders will lessen.

Maybe the Ptolemies accepted a ceasefire because you detroyed so much of their arnies? I had this in some campaigns were I defeated 6 full stacks in less then six turns. Maybe they were tired of fighting.

The reason why your economy went down is because you are at war; besieged cities make less cash and (re)training armies costs you money.