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  1. #1
    Angered Roach's Avatar Miles
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    Default 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8033829.stm

    Under normal circumstances the wedding of the daughter of a village official in Turkey's predominantly Kurdish south-east would be cause for much celebration.

    Instead, in the tiny village of Bilge Koyu in Mardin province, bulldozers are now breaking ground on a mass grave for 44 guests - all killed in a frenzied attack by masked assailants bearing automatic weapons and grenades.

    Those confirmed dead include the bride's father, the bridegroom, 16 female relatives and six small children.

    Another six guests are fighting for their lives in local hospitals, including a three-year-old girl given emergency surgery to remove a bullet from her chest.

    The motive for the attack is still unclear, but officials believe it stems from a blood feud between two families in the village.

    Family feuds are common among the patchwork of ethnic and religious groups which make up Turkey's predominantly Kurdish south-eastern provinces.

    There, loyalties to extended family and tribal groups are often far stronger than to the rule of law.

    But while such feuds do sometimes result in bloodshed, events on the scale witnessed in Bilge Koyu are unprecedented.

    Settling scores

    With Turkey continuing its efforts to join the EU, the killings have served as a reminder that parts of the underdeveloped east have still to feel the benefits of the prosperity that has transformed the industrialised west.

    The eight men arrested after the killings have yet to be identified, but the fact that arrests were made within hours of the attack and that the men were persuaded to surrender without further bloodshed points to their being both local residents and not militants.

    Rather, reports indicate that those arrested are members of a legal paramilitary group, the so-called Village Guards, created and armed by the government.

    Set up in the mid-1980s as a means of arming, training and paying villagers opposed to the separatist Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), the Village Guards proved successful in combating insurgents.

    They also helped the Turkish military impose the martial law under which much of the region lived until five years ago.

    However, at the same time, members of the Village Guards themselves quickly became the subjects of widespread criticism.

    Reports by both Turkish officials and international human rights groups have long alleged that Village Guard members have been just as effective at settling long-running family scores, and expropriating land belonging to rivals, forcing them to flee.

    There are even accusations that members have been involved in extra-judicial killings and drug smuggling over Turkey's porous borders with Iraq and Iran.

    Despite the lifting of martial law and continuing criticism of the legality of many of their activities, the Village Guards are still thought to have between 50,000 to 90,000 members across the south-east.

    And while Bilge Koyu prepares itself for the grim task of burying its dead, many are already questioning whether something good may come from such a tragic event.

    It might be that the Turkish authorities will be forced to question the necessity of maintaining a militia - especially one so widely criticised.
    I'm not even sure what to say of this. Because somebody's great-great-great-grandfather stole a sheep from somebody else's great-great-great grandfather when it wandered onto his land or whatever silly reason to hate each other these tribalist idiots have devised to kill one another, 6 children are dead, as well as the soon to be married groom.

    Such senseless violence, over what? Maybe Dokugan or one of the other Turks can shed some light onto this situation.

  2. #2

    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    The most unfortunate in this situation are the survivors.

    And the attackers, once I get my hands on them.

  3. #3
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    Not the first and not the last event like this...this however had been on a massive scale. I don't what sort of nerves the attackers had.

    Apart from the cold blood of the murderers this sort of thing is the result of being stuck with ancient dogmatic rules...rules for honor. Result of lack of enough government investment, result of lack of education. Not only that but also the core of many problems.
    Normally I wouldn't accuse the murderer in these cases....as it is what their forefathers have done before them. It's jsut a way to keep honor for them..it's the only way to held your head up high in the village. And it is a big deal in this feudal system.
    To prevent these government has to invest more in these regions or at least let the local Kurdish politicians do something. Solving PKK problem also being an important thing.

    But indeed this case is exceptional.....it's a slaughter. 44 people killed....I can't imagine that scene during the wedding. What an awfull thing it must have been. It is as if skynet sent these men.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    A tragedy.

  5. #5

    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    It is amusing how Turkey presents itself as a new nation unrelated to the Ottoman Empire, but absolutely refuses Kurdish people to have their own nation, resulting in social issues like this commonly occuring. Kurdistan should either exist or Turkey should go back to calling itself the Ottoman Empire.

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    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Kogen View Post
    It is amusing how Turkey presents itself as a new nation unrelated to the Ottoman Empire, but absolutely refuses Kurdish people to have their own nation, resulting in social issues like this commonly occuring. Kurdistan should either exist or Turkey should go back to calling itself the Ottoman Empire.
    Read the news....this is not related to Kurdistan. It's a crime related to dogmatic laws. A big one.

    Though I I agree with what you say to a point....an autonomy for Kurds perhaps would be better.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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    Angered Roach's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Read the news....this is not related to Kurdistan. It's a crime related to dogmatic laws. A big one.

    Though I I agree with what you say to a point....an autonomy for Kurds perhaps would be better.
    I disagree completely. I don't normally support things like this, but Turkey needs to bring the proverbial jackboot down on these people. If this is how they act under the official auspices of the Turkish government, how would they act without a civilized central government to answer to? The Kurdish regions of Turkey would descend into complete barbarism, every family, every tribe for themselves. I don't think we want "Somalia II: Anatolian Hinterland". Granted, I may be over generalizing the situation, but I can say that Kurds in Iraq don't get up to this sort of thing, especially not to this scale, and they've an even less organized government to answer to than Kurdish Turkey.

    Your rights end where another's begin, and in this case, the parents of 6 children had to bury their own, a bride, on her own wedding day, had to watch her soon to be betrothed put 6 feet under. There is no excuse for a feudal society to exist anywhere in this day and age, much less in a civilized country like Turkey. These people need to be taught a lesson. These "militia" (Though i'm leaning towards simply calling them terrorists) need to be disbanded, in favor of the Turkish military maintaining a more official presence in this troubled region.

    Heads should roll for this, but what worries me is that the Turkish government will run into the proverbial "Blue Wall Of Silence" when they try to get anything out of these supposed militia.

    A tragedy all around. I pray for the families of the deceased, and pray that this never has to happen again.

  8. #8
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Angered Roach View Post
    I disagree completely. I don't normally support things like this, but Turkey needs to bring the proverbial jackboot down on these people. If this is how they act under the official auspices of the Turkish government, how would they act without a civilized central government to answer to? The Kurdish regions of Turkey would descend into complete barbarism, every family, every tribe for themselves. I don't think we want "Somalia II: Anatolian Hinterland". Granted, I may be over generalizing the situation, but I can say that Kurds in Iraq don't get up to this sort of thing, especially not to this scale, and they've an even less organized government to answer to than Kurdish Turkey.

    Your rights end where another's begin, and in this case, the parents of 6 children had to bury their own, a bride, on her own wedding day, had to watch her soon to be betrothed put 6 feet under. There is no excuse for a feudal society to exist anywhere in this day and age, much less in a civilized country like Turkey. These people need to be taught a lesson. These "militia" (Though i'm leaning towards simply calling them terrorists) need to be disbanded, in favor of the Turkish military maintaining a more official presence in this troubled region.

    Heads should roll for this, but what worries me is that the Turkish government will run into the proverbial "Blue Wall Of Silence" when they try to get anything out of these supposed militia.

    A tragedy all around. I pray for the families of the deceased, and pray that this never has to happen again.
    I see your point....but my suggestion was more about increasing efficieny of the administaration by giving autonomy. Disarming these people would only be usefull to a point. But honor killings would continue. These people make this a really big issue. Murders would continue....maybe not like this with assault rifles.
    The idea is to incraese the education and job oppurtunities for these people.
    Increased job opps. and education will prevent these people from reproducing like cells. Because number of children is a sign of power in this feudal system. An aşiret ağası(modern lord) has more workers if there are more sons....it means power. And power means a lot to mankind.

    There is a chain of problems actually...government doesn't invest, education is pathetic...job opps. are pathetic. This encourages more people to join PKK. The more efficient PKK gets the lesser investment the region gets. It goes on and on like this. So if the Kurdish politicians in the parliement were supported instead of being accused as "terrorists" for their view....things would certainly get better.
    This however requires a lot of money...and does our government want to spent more money to the region? We already pay 200 000 000 dollars to there a year because of the terror already.

    The key is education.....the question is, how to give it efficiently and break the power of these lords.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  9. #9

    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    Feudal system exists in this region for centuries and this system managed to protect itself from every central authority for centuries (Byzantine, Seljuk, Ottomans). The main reason is that the region has a rough terrain and there was lack of roads or other transportation means to show the central authority.

    During my military service I have been to Mardin (center) several times as a lieutenant. I have to say that Mardin is one of the spectacular places that I have ever seen. You can find great pieces of ancient architecture and there are many people living aside having different religions. It is so sad something like that happened in Mardin.

    Anyway there are several reasons for this massacre. First of all you should know that it was a family fight and both victims and killers are from same family. Due to feudal hiearchy land was already divided among families equally or unequally and in order to keep the land together in family marriages are common in this region.

    Turkish government intervened to this land sharing issue and tried to be divided equally among people especially among villagers. As a result there are some disputes between families or even in the same family. As I mentioned before in family marriages are common to protect these lands. For this family tried to marry their daughter to a family member and other family members rejected this.

    I still can not believe how can a human being can do something like that. The reason I mentioned seems nonsense for you and me, but it is important for local people. But still this could not be a reason for that.





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  10. #10

    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Read the news....this is not related to Kurdistan. It's a crime related to dogmatic laws. A big one.

    Though I I agree with what you say to a point....an autonomy for Kurds perhaps would be better.
    I do not agree with your ideas about Kurdish autonomy. Actually this issue is not related with Kurds, there are only feudal families. Because these families would be still exists and this system still exists and even become stronger under Kurdish autonomy since Kurdish society is heavily based on feudal families.





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  11. #11
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by awalanche View Post
    I do not agree with your ideas about Kurdish autonomy. Actually this issue is not related with Kurds, there are only feudal families. Because these families would be still exists and this system still exists and even become stronger under Kurdish autonomy since Kurdish society is heavily based on feudal families.
    Well it's still a very debatable issue....there is however one thing certain. Kurds are not happy with the treatment of the goernment. There is certainly something wrong.....not to a point of seperation maybe but something is wrong and has to be fixed. Or they'll demand their total freedom.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  12. #12

    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Well it's still a very debatable issue....there is however one thing certain. Kurds are not happy with the treatment of the goernment. There is certainly something wrong.....not to a point of seperation maybe but something is wrong and has to be fixed. Or they'll demand their total freedom.
    Actually some Kurds in Turkey enjoy the rights of being a Turkish citizen in Turkey. Especially businessman, politicians and other professionals.

    But you are right about Kurds having a little education. Turkey was suppressed Kurdish culture and language for many years and that rose the problem because while doing that there were no enough school to educate people.

    I think this problem is simple as this example

    Consider an old Kurdish women who wants to benefit the services of social state (ex: hospital) but do not know any Turkish because she left isolated and educated and does not know anything about her rights as a citizen. So how can a state could bind such people to its unitary structure. Answer is impossible

    Of course this is a naive example. There also Kurds and Turks who benefits from this tension. But I believe this example is true for majority of Kurds





    10 November 1938: Atatürk had died but his heritage Turkish Republic will live forever.
    Debunk the Myth - What you don't know about the so-called "Armenian Genocide"

  13. #13

    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    yikes and I thought the Hatfield vs McCoy feud was bad.

  14. #14

    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    While, only decended from the Mughal's who were Turks themselves, I see this as a matter of honour, in a rural setting where honor is not lost like those in the city.

    This will only be fixed if the government of Turkey comes downs and talks with them and try to resolve the feud. If they do any proverbial boot stomping, then this will continue.

  15. #15
    Angered Roach's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Turkish Sultan View Post
    While, only decended from the Mughal's who were Turks themselves, I see this as a matter of honour, in a rural setting where honor is not lost like those in the city.

    This will only be fixed if the government of Turkey comes downs and talks with them and try to resolve the feud. If they do any proverbial boot stomping, then this will continue.
    Maybe it's just my big city lack of honor and corrupt American values, but I really fail to see the honor in gunning down children.

  16. #16

    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Angered Roach View Post
    Maybe it's just my big city lack of honor and corrupt American values, but I really fail to see the honor in gunning down children.
    Can you veriy that the party who got attacked, did not attack children themselves? Can you verify how many of those who got attacked killed women, men and children and ripped families apart?

    No? Then you wouldn't understand why they did what they did.

  17. #17

    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Turkish Sultan View Post
    Can you veriy that the party who got attacked, did not attack children themselves? Can you verify how many of those who got attacked killed women, men and children and ripped families apart?

    No? Then you wouldn't understand why they did what they did.
    Doesn't matter if one party killed children before or not. In honor killings women and children are left unharmed and no attacks are allowed during praying. This is certainly a disgusting event and I feel that there is more to this than a simple clash between two families.
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  18. #18
    Sidmen's Avatar Mangod of Earth
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    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    Can you veriy that the party who got attacked, did not attack children themselves?
    Don't care, when/if they do, we'll rally against them too. I favor short trials and long death sentences.
    Can you verify how many of those who got attacked killed women, men and children and ripped families apart?
    This sentence makes no sense, The words just don't go together the way you probably wanted them to.
    No? Then you wouldn't understand why they did what they did.
    Understanding isn't needed for judgement. I don't need to understand why a murderer kills to condemn him as a murderer. I don't need to understand why a childkiller killed a child to want his life extinguished. Too much emphasis is put on so called understanding these days, Civilization has shown that people are only civilized after they are forced to be at gunpoint.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    I can not understand it, still. I do not believe murderers are human. If they are human, I am not a human.

    Although style is PKK; means killing civilians regardless they were womenfolk, child or pregrant, that the goverment do not think it is a terror attack (PKK).

    That massacre is unique. It is a first, I hope the last. I fear for "revenge" attacks from murdered people's relatives, although rumor had it attackers are also relatives of killed.

    It only shows that human life is cheap at there.

    There are several gossips for who did attack, why the attack occured, we do not know yet certainly who, why did it?

    How:
    We do know from survivors' tales that at the house, at the wedding, the attack occured when the village imam (age 24, from Bolu vilayet at western Turkey) urged men to night prayers. The men started prayers at one room, womenfolk started at onother room. At that time Attackers with mask entered the house. They gun down people when they were prayed at behind and point blank. Survivors found dead men at praying ranks with the imam at front. Survivors also tell that the attackers made sure all were dead; gunning down still living. The victims include 6 children and 16 women. 3 of women were pregnant. The names of 43 victims of 44 are:
    village headmen Hacı Halim, Hüseyin (age 1), Abdulvahap, Cemil, Abdulkadir, Mehmet, Kenan, Ali, Şükrü (age 15), Kerim, Murat, Savaş, Halil, Salih, Halime, Şükran (age 6), Arife, Şükriye, Sevgi, Muhittin, Fesih, Abdullah (age 3), Emine, Zekiye, Mehmet Salih, Salih, Yıldız, Seniha, Şehmuz, Seyri, Neriman, Sevim, Yasemin (age 6), Ayhan Çelebi. Mithat, Habib, Ruşen (age 3), Kafiye Arı, Abide, Orhan, Kevser, Mehmet Akyol and village imam Hacı Kazım Bozan.
    I hope the attackers will be burn at hell till eternity. Amin.
    Last edited by white-wolf; May 06, 2009 at 01:42 AM.
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  20. #20
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: 44 Dead in an attack on a wedding in Bilge Koyu, Turkey

    Why is the style PKK?
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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