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  1. #1
    Mune's Avatar Civis
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    Default Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    First of all, many thanks to all those who put the time and effort in to make TA:TW happen. Without you guys, we wouldn't have this fantastic new playground of war to work with. The models are fantastic, and the unique units make this mod far flung from what we have all gotten used to.

    I had noticed that some things could use a little bit of tweaking to help the game become more balanced between the factions. A flurry of submods have come out to help achieve this goal, which adds to the fun and atmosphere of the game. Now I'll add mine to the pile, which I humbly admit I've been working on over the last week with about 50+ hours spent on it so far (mostly balance testing). I present to all of you here on the forums my campaign balance submod which I hope you will enjoy.

    What this mod does is alter the starting conditions for each faction (more specifically, the 'descr_strat.txt' file) in hopes of achieving a better balance between the AI-controlled factions as the game begins and progresses. I created this submod by altering what military units and constructed buildings the factions begin with, and carefully monitoring and testing these changes as I went. Two versions of the file are available, one which contains additional adjustments to the economy (specifically, the King's Purse) for some factions.

    Note that with further testing and feedback, new versions may become available and will be noted as such.

    Click the spoiler button below for a visual representation of a typical game using my submod:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    First off, I perform my testing while playing as Harad. I am mostly concerned with how the 'Good' factions interact with eachother and how the battles between good and evil pan out. I believe Harad to be the best choice for this type of testing as they can fairly well isolate themselves from the rest of the battle. During testing, I expand to my natural borders (you'll see in the pictures) and then continue to play defensively against Gondor (I don't cancel the war, so as to simulate the continued battle between AI Gondor and AI Harad).

    Note that there is of course room for variation from one campaign to another, but using my aforementioned testing procedure the results were atleast somewhat predictable.

    Now, on to the pictures. Here's a sample picture of the campaign map using my submod (the YesEco version, which contains adjustments to the Kings Purse for some factions). Here we are at turn 10 in a campaign I'll use as an example:



    Gondor and Mordor are fighting it out over the river settlements. Mordor has captured those on the east side and Gondor on the west. All factions have expanded to some degree on a fairly even scale (remember, the goal here is to achieve a relative balance between the factions as they expand). At this stage, Gondor is being generally reported as one of the top factions, as it starts out with the most settlements overall and a reasonable military position. Mordor occasionally gets reported as the top faction in Military and/or Production, as the armies of Sauron begin to grow...



    Now it's turn 20 in the same campaign:



    The factions are starting to fill in the gaps, expanding relatively equally with no factions either overly powerful or weak (or destroyed). Both of the elven factions are doing reasonably well, especially considering that at this point (without this submod) the Silvans were often wiped out by the combined forces of the Orcs and Mordor. The High Elves still hold their capital (which is typical) and you sometimes see expansion to the northwest or southwest from their capital (not this time though, as they have instead expanded along the western coastline). Rohan and Isengard have not yet gone to war, but it typically occurs between turn 15 and 25. Before the war begins you'll notice Isengard often reported as a the most rich faction, as they build up their wealth in preparation for the inevitable war.

    Though not apparent, a rather vicious battle is ensuing between the Orcs of the Misty Mountains versus the Elves, Dwarves and later Eriador. This is typical, and the results rely heavily on how well the good factions involved work together. In this campaign they do a pretty good job of working together against the Orcs, but some of the test runs showed the Orcs gradually gaining ground when the forces of good were less organised. The battle between Dale and Rhun is going slowly at this point as they continue to capture the last couple rebel settlements (at which point the battle usually gets a bit more serious). In some test runs the Dwarves come to the aid of Dale and Rhun gradually gets pushed south, but other times Rhun continues it's push into Dale's territories. This particular campaign see's a fairly even battle between them, with the Dwarves too focused against the Orcs to bother to join in.

    The neverending battle between Gondor and Mordor is still being fought over the river settlements between them. Typically this is where their battles will be fought up until between turn 35 and 45, where the forces of evil begin to push forward. Gondor is indeed a strong faction at the beginning, but in the early stages of the campaign they generally have to fight alone against the ever growing hordes of Mordor. This leads to a gradual push into the lands of Gondor as the game goes late, culminating at the inevitable battle of Minas-Tirith. A strong alliance between the good factions can make a difference here, but the other factions generally have their own wars to worrry about.



    By turn 50, you get a better picture of what this mod is hoping to achieve:



    All of the rebel settlements have been taken. A good balance has been achieved between the factions, with none left behind or expanding too fast. Mordor is still the powerhouse it is supposed to be, and left unchecked, with continue to expand into Gondor, sometimes Rohan, or North against the Silvan Elves. Mordor is still as strong as it was before, actually stronger (due to better performance of the good factions in general), slowly expanding into the good territories as the game progresses. I chose to keep with this aspect of the game, as it sticks with lore and the general theme achieved by TA:TW.



    Note that this submod is fully compatible with any other submod which does not overwrite the 'descr_strat.txt' file. I personally have tested this mod using the 'Vanilla' TA:TW and the latest available MithMod versions (my preference). Both gave very similar results, which leads me to believe that the changes made in 'descr_strat.txt' effect balance in a fairly independant fashion to more total-conversion type submods (like Mithmod). I will begin testing using the RC submod once a version of RC which addresses all of the factions becomes available.

    Also note that I am posting two versions of this submod so that you may choose which one is right for you. The complete submod, available below, is titled 'MODIFIED(YesEco)_descr_strat.txt'. This contains balance changes to both starting settlements and units as well as adjustments to the 'Kings Purse' (a set amount of money which each faction gains per turn, different per faction). The other version available, 'MODIFIED(NoEco)_descr_strat.txt', does not contain changes to the King's Purse. Testing has been done on both versions, but I claim that the 'YesEco' version provides better overall balance. The choice is yours.


    INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS:

    1) Download one of the files available below (choose after reading the description in the above paragraph) to your desktop.
    2) Open the following folder: Medieval 2: Total War\mods\Third_Age\data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign
    3) Locate the file named 'descr_strat' and rename it to 'OLD_descr_strat.txt' (or a name of your choosing). You may also copy and paste the file to a location of your choosing.
    4) Drag the downloaded file from your desktop into the aforementioned folder and rename the file to just 'descr_strat.txt' (remove the text at the beginning).
    5) Open the following folder: Medieval 2: Total War\mods\Third_Age\data\world\maps\base
    6) Delete the file named 'map.rwm'
    7) Your done!

    Note that this submod will not effect games already in progress (as it effects starting conditions) but neither will it cause previous saved games to become unplayable. It will effect new games only, and all of your existing saved games will be just fine.

    For a version of this submod compatible with Archaon's diplomacy submod (the version with the descr_strat.txt file) see post #10 below.

    To make this submod compatible with Sohn des Khaine's aging generals submod, follow the directions I posted in post #13 below.


    Please feel free to make any comments or suggestions to my mod, as well as report if you find any bugs (note that the bug with West Mirkwood settlement has already been fixed). Thanks in advance for trying out my mod, and if in the end you don't prefer it, you can always uninstall it by deleting the 'descr_strat.txt' file and replacing/renaming the old file back to how it was (be sure to delete the map.rwm file once more as well).
    Last edited by Mune; May 06, 2009 at 12:37 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    Looks good. I'm gonna try the YesEco one

  3. #3

    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    looks awsome, am just about to try it out. Btw what difficulty were you testing on?

  4. #4
    Mune's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    Everything I ever do relating to TW is on VH/VH.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    It sounds like you have put a lot of thought in to this which makes me want to try it, as I like what you're trying to do. The only thing stopping me is I've already replaced the descr_strat file with the mod that changes starting alliances so that good factions are allied with one another, and same for evil

    I couldn't figure out from reading your description if you have also done that, and I wouldn't know how to change it myself

  6. #6

    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    Mune, I congratulate you on the releasing of your mod. I will test it in conjunction with mine and see how it goes. Keep up the good work

  7. #7

    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    Giving this a try, thanks

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    SmurfDude - Your right, I should have posted some clearer instructions on doing as such. Regarding mods that alter starting alliances, here's what you would do:

    1) Download one of the files from my mod available in the original post to your desktop.
    2) Download the mod which alters starting alliances to your desktop as well.
    3) Open (double-click on) both of these files (you should have Notepad open up with a bunch of text)
    4) In each of the two Notepads which have opened, run a search (CTRL+F for short) for the word 'diplomacy', which will bring you to the appropriate part of the file ('start of diplomacy section').
    5) From the Notepad for the alliance submod you downloaded, highlight all of the text starting with "; >>>> start of diplomacy section <<<<" down to "; >>>> start of regions section <<<<"
    6) 'Copy' this text, then highlight the same section on the Notepad window with my submod and paste over it. Save this file, then delete the alliance submod file from your desktop to avoid confusion.
    7) Proceed with the instructions on the original post starting at step two (using the newly altered 'MODIFIED_descr_strat' file you created.

    Also, I'll message the creator of that mod (I think it's Archaon) to see if we can provide a compilation file to you guys, no alterations necessary.

    I opted not to alter the alliances as the results proved rather chaotic/unpredictable. Plus, with ZZZZ's new Campaign AI now available, I decided I'd rather keep the starting alliances as-is (since it makes the creation of new alliances and military access rights more frequent, which I'd prefer over having them be set from the beginning).


    EDIT: Thanks saulot, hope you find it to your liking.
    Last edited by Mune; May 05, 2009 at 02:54 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    Very helpful of you Mune, thanks, and have some rep for your efforts

  10. #10

    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    Nice work! I'll check it out tonight.

    New descr_strat.txt compatible with my starting alliances are attached as requested

    Follow the installation in the first post and don't forget to delete map.rwm file.

    enjoy!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Archaon View Post
    Nice work! I'll check it out tonight.

    New descr_strat.txt compatible with my starting alliances are attached as requested

    Follow the installation in the first post and don't forget to delete map.rwm file.

    enjoy!
    Heya Archaon
    Do we have also to download "Diplomacy mod - Keep alliances" so the AI won't stab your back and betray you or is this already done by the descr_strat.txt ?
    Kind regards

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    Thanks a bunch Archaon, +rep

    Any feedback from those who've had a chance to try it out? One thing you'll notice, from a players perspective rather than regarding the AI balance, is that the starting points (buildings, units, etc.) are a little better organised. As in, non-frontline settlements generally have the maximum free-upkeep units garrisoned and obvious points of expansion or conflict have higher concentrations of units. Some buildings have been added to certain settlements, generally to provide a boost in military production where needed. Or for economic reasons in a few cases, such as the Dwarves starting with a Mine to help their strained economy, and also for flavor. I mean, what would all the miner's be for otherwise?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    This looks good Mune! Once I have finished (or got bored ) of my currant campaign I will try it out.
    +rep

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    To those who may be wondering how to make this submod compatible with Sohn des Khaine's tweak to correct the rate at which generals age here's what you do:

    1) Download one of my modified 'descr_strat' files above.
    2) Open the text file after you have downloaded it and you'll see right near the top an entry which looks like the following:
    start_date 2954 summer
    end_date 3050 winter
    timescale 0.25
    3) Change the 'start_date 2954 summer' to say 'start_date 2954 winter' (so it will say winter for the start and end date). Save the file.
    4) Download Sohn des Khaine's 'campaign_script.txt' file and install it along with my modified 'descr_strat.txt' file (they are in the same folder). So basically just follow the instructions in the original post at this point with the addition of Sohn de Khaine's 'campaign_script.txt'. Be sure to backup both files, of course.
    Last edited by Mune; May 05, 2009 at 02:56 PM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    Sorry, a bit newbish. But this is something like RC and Mithmod right? I've been looking for an alt. to RC/mithmod because I'm having problems just getting their mod to work. SO i'm gonna give yours a shot. looks good.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    Quote Originally Posted by raistlinmajere8 View Post
    Sorry, a bit newbish. But this is something like RC and Mithmod right? I've been looking for an alt. to RC/mithmod because I'm having problems just getting their mod to work. SO i'm gonna give yours a shot. looks good.

    Mithmod and RC are more unit rebalance mods. They change aspects of the game related to military units, their stats and attributes etc. They help to improve balance, realism and/or lore-ism (not sure what word to use there) when it comes to military units and combat in general.

    My mod changes what each faction has at the beginning of the game (the starting units and buildings etc.) to help improve balance between the factions. This is fairly different from what something like Mithmod and/or RC do, although they do generally have the same goal (better balance). This mod can work in conjunction with something like Mithmod, or without any other mods installed.

    It's all there in the original post, I swear.

  17. #17
    raistlinmajere8's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Mune View Post
    Mithmod and RC are more unit rebalance mods. They change aspects of the game related to military units, their stats and attributes etc. They help to improve balance, realism and/or lore-ism (not sure what word to use there) when it comes to military units and combat in general.

    My mod changes what each faction has at the beginning of the game (the starting units and buildings etc.) to help improve balance between the factions. This is fairly different from what something like Mithmod and/or RC do, although they do generally have the same goal (better balance). This mod can work in conjunction with something like Mithmod, or without any other mods installed.

    It's all there in the original post, I swear.
    Ha yea, I'm sorry. I posted before I even really read anything, or put any thought into it.

    My head kinda hurts right now haha.

    But I have your mod up and running, in conjunction with RC. And its great so far. I'm playing as the High Elves, and I definitely your mod in work (Silvan hasn't been destroyed by turn 10! yaay!). One thing that worries me though, perhaps you made the "good" factions too good? Because so far in my campaign, Rohan and Gondor are extremely powerful. And Mordor is kinda falling behind so far.... But the Orcs of the Misty mountains are like... god-like. they have a huge portion of the map.

    But it could just be random chance, not saying anything against your work, because so far its worked quite nicely and did what its supposed to!

  18. #18
    Mune's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    To raistlinmajere8

    I haven't tested this mod with RC yet, but as long as the balance changes in RC don't unbalance the factions (in fact, those type of mods should do the opposite) then it should work pretty much the same. I may need to make further tweaks to it as I get more results and feedback of course.

    Early game (pre-turn 25) Gondor does pretty well, as they should since they start out as the largest (most settlements) faction. You should notice at least by around turn 50 if not sooner that Mordor starts to push past the river and further west. I liked the idea of the river between Gondor and Mordor as being a key staging ground for battles between them, so I worked to extend the amount of time before Mordor pushes through.

    That Rohan is doing so well I'm a little suprised, I don't generally see them do much except fight their war with Isengard and eventually defend against an invasion (which they do fairly well at for a change).

    As for the Orcs doing well I would sometimes see that happen if the opposing alliance factions become distracted in some way. I imagine your playing as the High Elves may have something to do with it, as when I let the AI handle things the High Elves (at their capital) were a key contender against the Orcs. Perhaps you haven't been applying enough pressure to your mountain-dwelling orc neighbors?

    In a game I played as the Silvans I did notice the Orcs sending some good sized stacks my way by turn 20-ish. They certainly aren't a push-over, and did recieve some mild boosts with my submod (since some of their neighbors did as well, so as to compensate). Their main changes were the addition of a road going up from Moria towards Gundabad (for better troop movement and to simulate their tunnel networks) and some tweaks to the military buildings (two Garrison Quarters instead of Mustering Halls, if I recall correctly). Their 'Kings Purse' remained the same even with the eco version.

    Hope your campaign progresses well, keep me updated on the progress.
    Last edited by Mune; May 05, 2009 at 07:42 PM.

  19. #19
    raistlinmajere8's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    Alright well now, I'm at turn 56. And things have progressed quite differently from my last post. Gondor and Mordor are locked in a fierce war, constantly battling over the territories around Osgliliath. Everybody has pretty much expanded exactly as your example turn 50 map. Except Gondor has pushed a little further into Harad territory, and Rohan is almost decimated. They've lost Edoras and almost everything directly bordering Isengard. I've set armies into Goblin mountain territory and I'm fighting through to my kindred Silvan Elves, who've started to expand a great deal. The Dwarves are gigantic, covering the entire top portion of the map. So far so good!

    We'll see what progresses

    but i'm currently going to start a dwarven campaign, and i'll fill ya in on whats going on, around turn 50.

  20. #20
    Mune's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Mune's Campaign Balance v1.0

    Sounds good.

    Seems like things have turned around a bit for the MM Orcs if the dwarves are doing well.

    I generally see Rohan do decent by turn 50 but a well-focused attack by Isengard and/or the Orcs, in combination with a dedicated invasion on Edoras (I wish it wasn't always their first target) occasionally spells their doom.

    Let me know how things go in your Dwarven campaign. You'll notice a slight boost in their starting military potential (just slight, like the Bowyer at their capital for Axethrowers) as well as a starting Mine in the castle east of their capital (helps with their economy and gives the miners something to do). Plus you start with one unit of the Erebor Axemen at their capital, for fun and to help expand around their capital region (like how Gondor starts with their Fountain Guards in Minas Tirith).

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