Setting Heirs to your preference

[konny]

As announced here I think I have found the secret behind the way the engine picks the next heir; in order not to have to explain this a dozen times every weak by PM, here's is the trick:

1. I had set up a simple family tree with one king and four sons



The heir is set by descr_strat as the eldest son. All characters have the same (two) traits and all are direct sons of the last faction leader, so there is no difference between them.


2. I have killed the FL by script and came up with this:



The engine always appointed the second son as next heir, and in the four tests no one else was picked.


3. I have created a trait "Next_Heir" that gave +5 Authority and have given it to the last son, who never had been appointed heir by the engine before. Result:




As you can see, he was appointed next heir in 4 out of 4 times, and no else was appointed heir meanwhile.

4. I have removed this trait and given it the third son who was never before in the 8 tests picked as next heir by the engine. Result:




It seems that the next heir is picked solely by authority. This follows you can select the next character you want to become heir by making sure he has more authority than anyone else.

How do you achive that?

The EDCT-file of vanilla M2TW assigns authority with tons of traits, but none of them has anything to do with succession.

(1) So, your first job would be to remove all instances of authority effects from traits that you do not want to affect succession (like "energetic" for example) and to make all traits that give and take nothing but authority available to faction leaders only (like GoodDiplomacy - BadDiplomacy). Now none of your family members has any authority.

(2) You would then need set up succession triggers that assign nothing but authority and are available in the way you want to have succession happen.

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For example, when you have a true monarchy you could make a trait RoyalFamily. This would be given to all sons of a king and passed down to all their sons too, and so on. Give it +3 Authority, that way all descendants of a king would be picked first as heirs by the engine.

Add a trait RoyalHighness. This is given to sons of a king only, but not passed down to their sons when the Royal Highness did not become king himself. Give it +5 Authority. That way sons of a king would have +8 Authority (+3 for being a member of the Royal Family). Other members of the royal family have +3 Authority. No one else would have any authority.

You could also add traits that define the status of a character within its faction, for example things like titles and offices that also give authority. This is in particular needed when you have a faction that did not use strict bloodline, like the HRE as an electoral monarchy, or Venice as a republic.

Needless to say that you have countless possiblities in modding when comparing the faction leader trait with the traits of other members of the royal family, or otherwise suitable candidates...

(3) Authority doesn't do a thing for a normal family member. He can have 0 or +10 Authority, it doesn't make him a better governor or general. But authority is vital for the faction leader. So, you would like to remove all traits that assign Authority because of succession when this character becomes faction leader. In return you would need some kind of GoodLeader/Badleader trait that gives or takes the faction leader (and only him) Authority because of his abilities.

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When you have done everything right you should come up with something like this:

[Nakharar]

wow great work mate i have an idea, i dont know if this is what you went on about, basicly this trait that gives authority passes from Father to Son so wouldnt that basicly make the heir always the son? However if it goes Father to Son it means that the heir will always have authority and kill the idea of civil wars and rebellions ... and basicly make authority uselsss...

[konny]

wow great work mate i have an idea, i dont know if this is what you went on about, basicly this trait that gives authority passes from Father to Son so wouldnt that basicly make the heir always the son? However if it goes Father to Son it means that the heir will always have authority and kill the idea of civil wars and rebellions ... and basicly make authority uselsss...

Yes, this should work (see the above example of a family tree with true bloodline succession).

[Eothese]

People are always asking if you can choose your own faction heir, like in Rome. So with this discovery, would that work with a transferable ancillary that gives a large authority bonus?

[Nakharar]

yes, a yes or no script how DHHR did with there ranks, however you would have to choose the heir in advance, so you can only choose it before they are actually heir

[konny]

Yes, that's the basic problem with the entire heir concept in M2TW: You cannot change the heir once he was picked by the engine. So you need to create an envoirement in advance under which the engine always picks the right one.

A typical problem can be when the desired heir(s) are all under-age. A transferable ancillary could be a sollution here so that you could give it to an elder FM who has no chance of becoming faction leader, unless the leader died in battle, but just keeps the stool until the desired heir comes of age.

[SSJPabs]

I don't think it's pure authority though that may work, it all depends on who is of age when the heirship is passed. If the heir has a male child of age when he becomes king that son will ALWAYS become the heir.

[konny]

If the heir has a male child of age when he becomes king that son will ALWAYS become the heir.

Definitly not. Check the traits of your characters: it is always the one with the highest authority, regardless of his position in the family tree. That's the reason why in M2TW succession suddenly jumps to an in-law on the far end of the family tree, even though the king has 4 sons of age.

[SSJPabs]

Definitly not. Check the traits of your characters: it is always the one with the highest authority, regardless of his position in the family tree. That's the reason why in M2TW succession suddenly jumps to an in-law on the far end of the family tree, even though the king has 4 sons of age.

Well I can only go by my experience. If the king's son isn't of age, it does jump in the manner you said. Perhaps my kings sons just get authority bonuses do to my own actions in game (I use a LOT of assassins so they all get those traits along with the evil-dad traits). That's possible on reflection.

[konny]

Yes, this could be a result of FathersLegacy (I think, was the name of that trait): When the father already has a lot of authority this might pass to his sons. If he happens to be the king ("by chance" I must add), you can get the impression that succession works as it should.

[Pnutmaster]

Ha! After years of speculation, rumors and frustration, someone finally documents how to influence heir selection.

Bravo, konny !

Now, if only there was a way to script-assassinate your own family members...

[Renown]

nice work. i never tested this...

but this now allows for a lot of new possibilities.

Picking heirs isn't a problem if you think of the heir as the Crown Prince - basically once he became the crown prince, that didn't change (though it really depends on the laws of succession), so think picking the heir is done prior - i like the idea of the ancillary.

Make there a "Kingmaker" ancill, that gives +10 authority. Have it check and make sure there is only one available at any given time. Now its a little unbalancing giving a king or heir too much authority, so what you need to do is make TWO checks (VNVs). One to check if you have the kingmaker in your entourage as either a Heir or FL. The trait that triggers here will be a negative -10 authority if you have the kingmaker.

Now, when you give the Kingmaker to your next successor ((((basically the Heir to the Heir- you could even have a VNV - with no values really except maybe loyalty- that triggers here so your heir to the heir doesn't just run off and rebel)))) your current Crown Prince (and likely King) would end up with a -10 authority to their check, that would suck too. So, then set up another VNV that checks two things It first checks whether or not you have the Kingmaker VNV (the -10 authority), and whether or not you have the kingmaker (+10 authority). IF you have the Kingmaker ancill, nothing is triggered. If you don't then it triggers another VNV which adds 10 authority to balance out the negative VNV.

It may sound complicated, but in reality its pretty easy to work out.Its an easy and smooth way to set your Heirs. the Player would literally only move the ancilliary around. Its us scripters that would have to fix it otherwise.

[Pnutmaster]

Make there a "Kingmaker" ancill, that gives +10 authority. Have it check and make sure there is only one available at any given time. Now its a little unbalancing giving a king or heir too much authority, so what you need to do is make TWO checks (VNVs). One to check if you have the kingmaker in your entourage as either a Heir or FL. The trait that triggers here will be a negative -10 authority if you have the kingmaker.

AFAIK, the Heir does not use the Authority attribute. That slot is still filled by the Loyalty rings.

Your idea however is very sound. If a faction leader (or faction heir becomes faction leader) possesses the Heir Orb ancillary, we give them a hidden trait with a -10 Authority penalty. Once the Heir Orb is transferred, the hidden trait is accordingly removed.

[xeryx]

BRAVO!! konny !!! It's so simple..and all it took was logical thinking and some experimentation. Excellent!!

A real Breakthrough.. SEE it can be done!! innovative thinking!! We should share some with you know who!

+REP for you

[y2day]

Wow great work.

[Dave Scarface]

Thank you very much for sharing this great find with everyone + rep

[Pnutmaster]

I may have discovered a limitation to this "Authority" trick. From my testings, if the current faction heir (rather than the faction leader) dies, the next heir is chosen randomly (or, on a basis other than Authority).

Adapting konny's theory, I created the "Heir Futurus" ancillary (+10 to Authority, +1 to Loyalty). If non-existent in the player's faction, it's awarded to the first triggered character that is the son of a King or Prince.



Playing a Sicilian PDER 1.0a campaign, I saw fit to give the "heir_orb" to Bohemond de Hauteville, ensuring he became Heir Presumptive after the death of his father (his father was older than my faction leader and likely to die first).



The expectant turn came: Principe Robert finally croaked. Bohemond had just wrestled Toledo from a tenacious Saracen general and was more than worthy to take up the mantle of heir. He did not.

Suffice to say, I was not happy (CA make me ).



I repeated this test three more times from a previous save (requiring, in Death's absence, that I kill Principe Robert by suicidal charge). Each time Roger was chosen over Bohemond. I then remembered an important detail from tonny's post.

I have killed the FL by script.

FL. Faction Leader. I was killing the Faction Heir.

Returning to the same saved point, I killed Re Roger instead of Principe Robert. Sure enough, the man holding the "heir_orb" ancillary, Bohemond, became the next heir.

[Lord de Lyonesse]

I had set up a simple family tree with one king and four sons

What branch of family is that in MTWII is it france or...?

[konny]

Have you checked the traits and ancillaries of both characters? If Bohemund has other traits that give him -5 Authority and his brother other traits that give him +6 Authority the ancillary wouldn't do a thing. The second pic is from two years later than the previous attempts, so there might have been changes in the traits of the two characters, what had caused the difference.

I had about the same situation recently like it is in your family tree, with the exception that the guy on the position of your Prince Robert was set first king by descr_start and his brother heir by descr_start. The first king had four sons, like your Robert. According to my system all four sons had +8 authority for being member of the Royal house and direct sons of a king.

Of these the son#1 (on the position of your Bohemund) was also Margrave of Austria (+1 Authority) and inherited the title Duke of Moravia from his father (+2 Authority), makes 11 Authority total. Son#2 and son#4 did not hold any titles, while son#3 was Duke of Carinthia (+2 Authority), makes 10 total.

After the death of the king everything worked as expected: His brother became pre-defined the next king, while the Duke of Moravia and Margrave of Austria (son#1) was picked next heir. After the death of that second king, son#1 became new king, son#2 was skipped and the Duke of Carinthia (son#3) became next heir.

What branch of family is that in MTWII is it france or...?

dHRR 0.7, Sweden.

[Pnutmaster]

Have you checked the traits and ancillaries of both characters? If Bohemund has other traits that give him -5 Authority and his brother other traits that give him +6 Authority the ancillary wouldn't do a thing. The second pic is from two years later than the previous attempts, so there might have been changes in the traits of the two characters, what had caused the difference.

Yes. Roger had no traits or ancillaries to grant him Authority, and Bohemond had well above 10 points between the heir_orb ancillary.

I had about the same situation recently like it is in your family tree, with the exception that the guy on the position of your Prince Robert was set first king by descr_start and his brother heir by descr_start. The first king had four sons, like your Robert. According to my system all four sons had +8 authority for being member of the Royal house and direct sons of a king.

Was it the same in that your faction heir died before the king?

Repeat your experiment. This time make sure it is the faction heir that is killed through the scripts, not the faction leader. You should receive the same result I did.

EDITED: Conducted another test using another faction (again, PDER 1.0a). My theory held.

Following a faction leader's death, the next heir chosen is the family member with the most Authority points.
Following a faction heir's death, the next heir chosen is random/ignores Authority points.