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  1. #1
    ★Bandiera Rossa☭'s Avatar The Red Menace
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    Default Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    Human genetic engineering is the modification of an individual's genotype with the aim of choosing the phenotype of a newborn or changing the existing phenotype of a child or adult. It holds the promise of curing genetic diseases like cystic fibrosis and increasing the immunity of people to viruses. It is speculated that genetic engineering could be used to change physical appearance, metabolism, and even improve mental faculties like memory and intelligence, although for now these uses are relegated to science fiction.

    Do you that modifying the Humane Genome to cure diseases is ethical? What about modifying it to enhance body functions and make people more intelligent, stronger, or live longer?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_engineering


  2. #2

    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    The main reason people are against human genetic engineering is they fear obsolescence.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  3. #3
    Adar's Avatar Just doing it
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    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    I think it's great that we can cure certain diseases before they even occur. Tailoring children for estetic reasons is more ethically complicated but I seriously doubt that it will be possible within our lifetime.

    Alot of people probably overestimate our ability to radically change our genetic make up. The basis of most genetic engineering on humans is Genomewide Association Studies (GWAS).

    The human genome project sequenced the human genome and have also given us access to a great wealth of "markers". These are essentially physical positions in our DNA sequence that we are able to easily locate if they are present in a certain person. This correlation then allow us to identify specific genes or promotor sequences that can be related to inheritable diseases. Some diseases are incredibly easy to locate CAH (body produce testostestorone instead of cortisone) is a single point mutation. The faulty gene causing this disease is easily found by comparing what markers often are inherited together with the disease. Several candidate genes are located and one of these is actually involved in the production of cortisone. This disease could easily be cured by genetic engineering.

    Most diseases (and normal traits) are alot more complicated. You have so many genes affecting the disease that even if you find a fauly gene that is involved in the disease it's unlikely that repairing the gene would cure the disease since it's only causing a very small part of the whole problem that we recognise as a disease.


    Here is a layman summary of the debate that I think people might want read. It should ease any fears that we in a near time will be able to pick and chose the traits of our children.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Source
    Ken Cedeno for The New York Times David B. Goldstein of Duke University is among the geneticists who are debating which path to follow in disease research.



    Since the human genome was decoded in 2003, researchers have been developing a powerful method for comparing the genomes of patients and healthy people, with the hope of pinpointing the DNA changes responsible for common diseases.
    This method, called a genomewide association study, has proved technically successful despite many skeptics’ initial doubts. But it has been disappointing in that the kind of genetic variation it detects has turned out to explain surprisingly little of the genetic links to most diseases.
    A set of commentaries in this week’s issue of The New England Journal of Medicine appears to be the first public attempt by scientists to make sense of this puzzling result.
    One issue of debate among researchers is whether, despite the prospect of diminishing returns, to continue with the genomewide studies, which cost many millions of dollars apiece, or switch to a new approach like decoding the entire genomes of individual patients.
    The unexpected impasse also affects companies that offer personal genomic information and that had assumed they could inform customers of their genetic risk for common diseases, based on researchers’ discoveries.
    These companies are probably not performing any useful service at present, said David B. Goldstein, a Duke University geneticist who wrote one of the commentaries appearing in the journal.
    “With only a few exceptions, what the genomics companies are doing right now is recreational genomics,” Dr. Goldstein said in an interview. “The information has little or in many cases no clinical relevance.”
    Unlike the rare diseases caused by a change affecting only one gene, common diseases like cancer and diabetes are caused by a set of several genetic variations in each person. Since these common diseases generally strike later in life, after people have had children, the theory has been that natural selection is powerless to weed them out.
    The problem addressed in the commentaries is that these diseases were expected to be promoted by genetic variations that are common in the population. More than 100 genomewide association studies, often involving thousands of patients in several countries, have now been completed for many diseases, and some common variants have been found. But in almost all cases they carry only a modest risk for the disease. Most of the genetic link to disease remains unexplained.
    Dr. Goldstein argues that the genetic burden of common diseases must be mostly carried by large numbers of rare variants. In this theory, schizophrenia, say, would be caused by combinations of 1,000 rare genetic variants, not of 10 common genetic variants.
    This would be bleak news for those who argue that the common variants detected so far, even if they explain only a small percentage of the risk, will nonetheless identify the biological pathways through which a disease emerges, and hence point to drugs that may correct the errant pathways. If hundreds of rare variants are involved in a disease, they may implicate too much of the body’s biochemistry to be useful.
    “In pointing at everything,” Dr. Goldstein writes in the journal, “genetics would point at nothing.”
    Two other geneticists, Peter Kraft and David J. Hunter of the Harvard School of Public Health, also writing in the journal, largely agree with Dr. Goldstein in concluding that probably many genetic variants, rather than few, “are responsible for the majority of the inherited risk of each common disease.”
    But they disagree with his belief that there will be diminishing returns from more genomewide association studies.
    “There will be more common variants to find,” Dr. Hunter said. “It would be unfortunate if we gave up now.”
    Dr. Goldstein, however, said it was “beyond the grasp of the genomewide association studies” to find rare variants with small effects, even by recruiting enormous numbers of patients. He said resources should be switched away from these highly expensive studies, which in his view have now done their job.
    “If you ask what is the fastest way for us to make progress in genetics that is clinically helpful,” he said, “I am absolutely certain it is to marshal our resources to interrogate full genomes, not in fine-tuning our analyses of common variations.”
    He advocates decoding the full DNA of carefully selected patients.
    Dr. Kraft and Dr. Hunter say that a person’s genetic risk of common diseases can be estimated only roughly at present but that estimates will improve as more variants are found. But that means any risk estimate offered by personal genomics companies today is unstable, Dr. Kraft said, and subject to upward or downward revision in the future.
    Further, people who obtain a genomic risk profile are likely to focus with horror on the disease for which they are told they are at highest risk. Yet this is almost certain to be an overestimate, Dr. Kraft said.
    The reason is that the many risk estimates derived from a person’s genomic data will include some that are too high and some that are too low. So any estimate of high risk is likely to be too high. The phenomenon is called the “winner’s curse,” by analogy to auctions in which the true value of an item is probably the average of all bids; the winner by definition has bid higher than that, and so has overpaid.
    Dr. Kari Stefansson, chief executive of deCODE Genetics, an Icelandic gene-hunting company that also offers a personal genome testing service, said deCODE alerted clients to pay attention to diseases for which testing shows their risk is three times as great as average, not to trivial increases in risk.
    Dr. Stefansson said his company had discovered 60 percent of the disease variants known so far.
    “We have beaten them in every aspect of the game,” he said of rival gene hunters at American and British universities.
    The undiscovered share of genetic risk for common diseases, he said, probably lies not with rare variants, as suggested by Dr. Goldstein, but in unexpected biological mechanisms. DeCODE has found, for instance, that the same genetic variant carries risks that differ depending on whether it is inherited from the mother or the father.

  4. #4
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    There are few arguments against it. In fact, i can't thinl of any arguments against it. It is not 'unethical'.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  5. #5
    Ulyaoth's Avatar Truly a God Amongst Men
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    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    The main things I've heard against it are weird theories that modified kids could somehow have some weird mutations come out of nowhere and make them all die or mutate into hideous monsters that will feed upon humanity. That or poor people ing that the evil rich people will make their kids so much better that equality will become a complete lie and normal people will become morlocks and be banished to live beneath ground.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    I think this belongs to EMM, doesn't it? Science cannot answer why we should or should not genetically engineer our species.
    "The cheapest form of pride however is national pride. For it reveals in the one thus afflicted the lack of individual qualities of which he could be proud, while he would not otherwise reach for what he shares with so many millions. He who possesses significant personal merits will rather recognise the defects of his own nation, as he has them constantly before his eyes, most clearly. But that poor blighter who has nothing in the world of which he can be proud, latches onto the last means of being proud, the nation to which he belongs to. Thus he recovers and is now in gratitude ready to defend with hands and feet all errors and follies which are its own."-- Arthur Schopenhauer

  7. #7
    ★Bandiera Rossa☭'s Avatar The Red Menace
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    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    Quote Originally Posted by eisenkopf View Post
    I think this belongs to EMM, doesn't it? Science cannot answer why we should or should not genetically engineer our species.
    Probably although it is scientific.. I will leave that to the mods..
    Anyway I think that using it to cure diseases is great but I am kinda iffy about using it for "species improvement"


  8. #8
    Alkarin's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slurricane View Post
    Probably although it is scientific.. I will leave that to the mods..
    Anyway I think that using it to cure diseases is great but I am kinda iffy about using it for "species improvement"
    isint that what curing diseases is? anything we do that is positive is species improvement. people merely like to declassify and reclassify things to meet their own standards
    You look great today.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    Im for it, I want children with eight arms, sixteen legs and twelve brains. each.
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  10. #10
    OccamR's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    As long as it's safe, then yeah, it could be considered similar to medicine, why wouldn't you?
    "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect."

  11. #11
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    Quote Originally Posted by OccamR View Post
    As long as it's safe, then yeah, it could be considered similar to medicine, why wouldn't you?
    The main problem that comes to mind is parents actively and knowingly selecting what genes their baby will have; custom-making their child.
    That's not good parenting; to me, that's saying that they won't love their child unless it's that "perfect" engineered child, that they're care about it if and only if it's tailored to their specifications. It is cruel, hateful, egotistical parenting. That is not the kind of parent I would want, and it is not the kind of parent a child deserves.

  12. #12
    Adar's Avatar Just doing it
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    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    The main problem that comes to mind is parents actively and knowingly selecting what genes their baby will have; custom-making their child.
    That's not good parenting; to me, that's saying that they won't love their child unless it's that "perfect" engineered child, that they're care about it if and only if it's tailored to their specifications. It is cruel, hateful, egotistical parenting. That is not the kind of parent I would want, and it is not the kind of parent a child deserves.
    But human genetic engineering is highly unlikely to reach that stage anytime soon.

    Source
    Ken Cedeno for The New York Times David B. Goldstein of Duke University is among the geneticists who are debating which path to follow in disease research.



    Since the human genome was decoded in 2003, researchers have been developing a powerful method for comparing the genomes of patients and healthy people, with the hope of pinpointing the DNA changes responsible for common diseases.
    This method, called a genomewide association study, has proved technically successful despite many skeptics’ initial doubts. But it has been disappointing in that the kind of genetic variation it detects has turned out to explain surprisingly little of the genetic links to most diseases.
    A set of commentaries in this week’s issue of The New England Journal of Medicine appears to be the first public attempt by scientists to make sense of this puzzling result.
    One issue of debate among researchers is whether, despite the prospect of diminishing returns, to continue with the genomewide studies, which cost many millions of dollars apiece, or switch to a new approach like decoding the entire genomes of individual patients.
    The unexpected impasse also affects companies that offer personal genomic information and that had assumed they could inform customers of their genetic risk for common diseases, based on researchers’ discoveries.
    These companies are probably not performing any useful service at present, said David B. Goldstein, a Duke University geneticist who wrote one of the commentaries appearing in the journal.
    “With only a few exceptions, what the genomics companies are doing right now is recreational genomics,” Dr. Goldstein said in an interview. “The information has little or in many cases no clinical relevance.”
    Unlike the rare diseases caused by a change affecting only one gene, common diseases like cancer and diabetes are caused by a set of several genetic variations in each person. Since these common diseases generally strike later in life, after people have had children, the theory has been that natural selection is powerless to weed them out.
    The problem addressed in the commentaries is that these diseases were expected to be promoted by genetic variations that are common in the population. More than 100 genomewide association studies, often involving thousands of patients in several countries, have now been completed for many diseases, and some common variants have been found. But in almost all cases they carry only a modest risk for the disease. Most of the genetic link to disease remains unexplained.
    Dr. Goldstein argues that the genetic burden of common diseases must be mostly carried by large numbers of rare variants. In this theory, schizophrenia, say, would be caused by combinations of 1,000 rare genetic variants, not of 10 common genetic variants.
    This would be bleak news for those who argue that the common variants detected so far, even if they explain only a small percentage of the risk, will nonetheless identify the biological pathways through which a disease emerges, and hence point to drugs that may correct the errant pathways. If hundreds of rare variants are involved in a disease, they may implicate too much of the body’s biochemistry to be useful.
    “In pointing at everything,” Dr. Goldstein writes in the journal, “genetics would point at nothing.”
    Two other geneticists, Peter Kraft and David J. Hunter of the Harvard School of Public Health, also writing in the journal, largely agree with Dr. Goldstein in concluding that probably many genetic variants, rather than few, “are responsible for the majority of the inherited risk of each common disease.”
    But they disagree with his belief that there will be diminishing returns from more genomewide association studies.
    “There will be more common variants to find,” Dr. Hunter said. “It would be unfortunate if we gave up now.”
    Dr. Goldstein, however, said it was “beyond the grasp of the genomewide association studies” to find rare variants with small effects, even by recruiting enormous numbers of patients. He said resources should be switched away from these highly expensive studies, which in his view have now done their job.
    “If you ask what is the fastest way for us to make progress in genetics that is clinically helpful,” he said, “I am absolutely certain it is to marshal our resources to interrogate full genomes, not in fine-tuning our analyses of common variations.”
    He advocates decoding the full DNA of carefully selected patients.
    Dr. Kraft and Dr. Hunter say that a person’s genetic risk of common diseases can be estimated only roughly at present but that estimates will improve as more variants are found. But that means any risk estimate offered by personal genomics companies today is unstable, Dr. Kraft said, and subject to upward or downward revision in the future.
    Further, people who obtain a genomic risk profile are likely to focus with horror on the disease for which they are told they are at highest risk. Yet this is almost certain to be an overestimate, Dr. Kraft said.
    The reason is that the many risk estimates derived from a person’s genomic data will include some that are too high and some that are too low. So any estimate of high risk is likely to be too high. The phenomenon is called the “winner’s curse,” by analogy to auctions in which the true value of an item is probably the average of all bids; the winner by definition has bid higher than that, and so has overpaid.
    Dr. Kari Stefansson, chief executive of deCODE Genetics, an Icelandic gene-hunting company that also offers a personal genome testing service, said deCODE alerted clients to pay attention to diseases for which testing shows their risk is three times as great as average, not to trivial increases in risk.
    Dr. Stefansson said his company had discovered 60 percent of the disease variants known so far.
    “We have beaten them in every aspect of the game,” he said of rival gene hunters at American and British universities.
    The undiscovered share of genetic risk for common diseases, he said, probably lies not with rare variants, as suggested by Dr. Goldstein, but in unexpected biological mechanisms. DeCODE has found, for instance, that the same genetic variant carries risks that differ depending on whether it is inherited from the mother or the father.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    I agree with Adar about the majority of this. It doesn't look like it will be even vaguely possible to, sort of, custom sequence, children to any extent.
    However it could still be open to genetic selection. Currently the law (in the UK anyway, I think, I'm not sure entirely) permits to screen embryos for certain genetic illnesses such that they can be aborted if they have these traits, at least I think so, anyway (I'm fairly sure, but by no means certain, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd like to know what the actual situation is).
    But what if that was extended to screening for all kinds of things that can be identified in the human genome? Things like whether a parent could `select' whether their child was a boy or a girl, or maybe hair colour or similar attributes like that by screening and then aborting until they get what they want (I'm not sure what is stored in an identifiable way in the genome as it's understood at the moment, but I'm fairly sure the principle is valid, if the actual traits that can be looked at are somewhat different).
    It wouldn't be genetic engineering as I think was originally implied, but it would still be genetic engineering of a sort, I feel.
    In which case, is that ethical? Or even is it sensible? What if too many people wanted a certain gender of child? Or any trait became too commonly `wanted' to the extent that it starts to dominate in a way in which it normally otherwise wouldn't?

    Kind of vague ideas, I'm not really that well up to date and informed regarding genetics, but I think that this seems to be in the spirit of the original question, while avoiding the fact that simply customising a child is not necessarily on the horizon.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    The main problem that comes to mind is parents actively and knowingly selecting what genes their baby will have; custom-making their child.
    That's not good parenting; to me, that's saying that they won't love their child unless it's that "perfect" engineered child, that they're care about it if and only if it's tailored to their specifications. It is cruel, hateful, egotistical parenting. That is not the kind of parent I would want, and it is not the kind of parent a child deserves.
    I have two kids, and they have no major problems. My daughter though has some bad eczema, which she only gets on the top of her head. It flairs up now and then, causing her pain and she tries to scratch it, which makes it worse, but explain that to a 1.5 year old. My wife has it, as does her mother. Obviously, its genetic.

    If there was a way to tailor those genes to remove that from her, I'd be all for it. Its not fun seeing your child in pain.

    Now lets take it to 'tailoring'. What you wrote obviously shows you are not a parent.

    As a parent you want the BEST for your child. Its not hateful love, its what parents do. You want them to be tall, strong, smart, and of good character. If in some future you have a choice....

    Well Mr. Max, we did the standard genetic scan of the blastocyst and its a boy, congratulations. We show he will be 5'6", of slight frame, IQ of 90, with a propensity for alcoholism and violence. He will have brown hair, brown eyes, light complexion but prone to acne.

    If you would like we could make some simple modifications, which should produce a height of 5'11", and IQ of 120, resistance to acne, alcoholism, and violent fits. Up to you of course. We can do the hair and eye color too but there will be an extra charge.



    Now I ask how is that hateful?

    I am not sure if I would be in favor of such abilities being used, but that is at a species level and social thing, it has nothing to do with hateful parents though.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  15. #15
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    Indeed, not unethical. Imagine the child doesn't like his/her new traits. No giving back, unfortunately. There is a guideline I wish to propose: stop ten years to think well, before you post it.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slurricane View Post
    Do you that modifying the Humane Genome to cure diseases is ethical? What about modifying it to enhance body functions and make people more intelligent, stronger, or live longer?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_engineering
    Why not? Ethics has nothing to do with this.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    the main problem is our genetic sciences are not yet capable of such true engineering in humans-- or rather it is totally unethical.

  18. #18
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    I mostly say that from the perspective of someone with a genetic disorder- colour blindness, specifically deuteronopia. This is part of who I am; if I did not have this, I would not be me. I'd like to think that parents should love their children unconditionally for who they are, not what the parent would like them to be.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    I mostly say that from the perspective of someone with a genetic disorder- colour blindness, specifically deuteronopia. This is part of who I am; if I did not have this, I would not be me. I'd like to think that parents should love their children unconditionally for who they are, not what the parent would like them to be.
    And part of who I am is a guy with migraines but if there was a way to snip that out of the genome I have wanted my parents to do it.

    I think the bigger and legitimate fear would be abortions based on this sort of data, and thats far more likely to come before any genetic tailoring could be done, some is already here.

    There is a joke among conservatives, that if they ever discover a 'gay' gene you will see the entire homosexual lobby go from pro choice to pro life very quickly.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Human Genetic Engineering (Right or wrong)

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    There is a joke among conservatives, that if they ever discover a 'gay' gene you will see the entire homosexual lobby go from pro choice to pro life very quickly.
    ...and if the 'liberal gene' is ever discovered, you'll see the entire pro-life lobby turn pro-choice just as quickly!

    If human GE proves relatively safe and predictable, I'm all for curing genetic disorders before the kid is born. I just shudder to think what plastic creatures we'd be seeing in Texas child beauty pageants..."Dya think ya can rig her boobs to sprout by age 8? The judges are getting pickier every year!"
    Giving tax breaks to the wealthy, is like giving free dessert coupons to the morbidly obese.

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