A suggestion for improved Elven immersion

[SigniferOne]

Right now the Elven factions start with generic buildings, and a poor economy that limits their amount of armies they can recruit. I assume this was set up so that Elves wouldn't field large forces and remained within the historical framework of a few elite units against innumerable odds.

The overarching principle of small but elite Elven armies is an excellent one, but the notion of Elven poverty also makes absolutely no sense. I suggest that we slightly alter the paradigm, and by the same token create an immense level of immersion for the Elven player.

My suggested paradigm is: Elves be given a large number of wealth and culture making buildings; but their recruitment pool be made smaller, only replenishing units after long and dutiful patience.

If this paradigm is implemented, what you will have is Elven factions awash in large amounts of cash, but unable to really recruit any further units (the opposite of what they have now, plenty of recruitable units if only the money was there).

If there is so much money with no good use to put it to, what will Elves do with all that cash? That's where we bring a new level of immersion in: a whole host of artistic and cultural buildings which will be available to Elves only, and which will cost preposterous amounts of money to construct. As examples of the kinds of buildings you could have, dig deep into LOTR lore, culture, and poetry:

A Historian's Workshop (where elven scribes record the latest wars and world events)
....(+small amount of income, from new incomers coming in to read what your scribes have composed)
Poetry Circle (elves gather here to have poetry contests)
....(+small amount to settlement happiness)
Lore-Keeper's Retreat (where scribes study the ancient lore, and scholars maintain the Silmarillion, philologically comparing manuscripts to only allow the best copies and transmissions)
....(+etc...)
Archery Circle (where archers compete in games and competitions)
....(+archery experience)

All of these could cost preposterous amounts of money, and Elves would be able to afford every one of them, since they would have nothing else to spend money on, certainly not on the military (where new units still haven't appeared for recruitment).

Then, when you now have these buildings as part of the Elven faction, you could take it further and have scripted competitions for your Elves to take part in. A message could pop up saying:
"Would you like to host a song and poetry competition? 20k gold." Sure, you press ok.
"Would you like to host an archery competition? 45k gold." Sure, easily affordable for you.
"Would you like to invite humans to the competition?" If so, nearby human provinces could gain a +1 experience for their archery units.
"Would you like to teach nearby human settlements the art of history? 10k gold." If so, a nearby human settlement would have a "Human Historian's Workshop" appear, a weaker watered-down version of the building you have in your settlements. In this way you could sit in the woods and spend money on culture, or raise the human people's culture to aid them in fighting against the Shadow.

[Nole4694]

I like your Idea alot, though your last idea i think is impossible due to game mechanics, about helping other factions

[Tharros]

Good ideas. But I don't think the Elves should be swimming in cash, but they should definatly be better off than they are at the moment.

[Antiochos VII Sidetes]

That's not a half-bad idea. It's truly embarrassing to outnumber the Goblin armies pouring out of the Misty Mountains as High Elves.

[RadioactiveMan]

I'll be honest, I think I prefer the direction the mod team went with the Elves.

Although I wouldn't mind very long recruitment times, this is something that would have to be carefully balanced. The AI player seems to lose alot more units than a human player, and so long recruitment times could be devastating to the AI. I know that, personally, I rarely actually lose a unit entirely unless I am caught in a city under seige- especially archers, which are highly survivable anyway and are the bread-and-butter of the Elves. So having lots of money would mean I could always afford to retrain my damaged units. Retraining like this would be a loophole that circumvents your vision of the game.

Also, sometimes you simply have to spam units quickly to respond to an unexpected attack. A full stack can show up unexpectedly (Especially on VH and with the garrison script the way it is) and you just dont have anything ready to counter it. It would be unfortunate if you could not recruit to counter this unexpected threat.

Lastly, why bother with poetry fairs or archery tournaments when you can just gift that money right to the faction in need? I know it would be cool Lore-wise but isn't equally satisfying to send your diplomat on the long trek to arrive the gates of Rohan/Gondor/whoever and deliver them a massive cash gift? The AI is not shy about spending whatever you give them, and your gift will produce results quickly.

Sorry to shoot your ideas down

[SigniferOne]

Retraining like this would be a loophole that circumvents your vision of the game.

Not at all, for there exists a very simple way to regulate retraining so that you cannot simply retrain whatever the heck you want. Retraining is a pool too and you can set it to be lower, so that you arrive your half-depleted stack back to your settlement and have nobody there to replenish it.

sometimes you simply have to spam units quickly to respond to an unexpected attack. A full stack can show up unexpectedly (Especially on VH and with the garrison script the way it is) and you just dont have anything ready to counter it. It would be unfortunate if you could not recruit to counter this unexpected threat.

You should have stacks hiding/ambushing in the woods, for any possibly incoming enemy.

There exists a garrison script.

I really think this is a non-issue.

(PS. Save some units and don't recruit them until the last possible moment. As I say, again -- really a non-issue.)

Lastly, why bother with poetry fairs or archery tournaments when you can just gift that money right to the faction in need?

If we go with my idea, there are simple ways with which you can disable the "gift" diplomacy option. Lore-wise, there did not happen any gifting of provinces or money, at any time, during even a single one of the three ages.

[dmiden]

If we go with my idea, there are simple ways with which you can disable the "gift" diplomacy option. Lore-wise, there did not happen any gifting of provinces or money, at any time, during even a single one of the three ages.

Eorl (later king) was given Calenardhon (later a part of the kingdom of Rohan) by Cirion, the Steward of Gondor after aiding him in war. There he set up his kingdom.

Besides that, I agree with the proposed changes.

[SigniferOne]

Eorl (later king) was given Calenardhon (later a part of the kingdom of Rohan) by Cirion, the Steward of Gondor after aiding him in war. There he set up his kingdom.

It's not the same. Eorl was a "horde faction" to whom Gondor gave a province to settle, and besides, it's just one instance throughout all of history anyway. What I'm getting at is the fact that no LOTR 'factions' have been in the habit of giving provinces of money to each other (although it did happen in actual medieval history so I can see why M2TW has it). Thus there's no reason why not to remove Gifting.

Then if that gets done, you could implement a system where Elves make concerted efforts to help out the Human factions through building profit-producing libraries among them, and through other indirect ways, as outlined in the Opening Post.

[Elfhelm]

Hello guys and gals!I love the Elves! I used to play music for a living!Now I just annoy folk! I love Total War too and we won.t be leaving Middle Earth any timesoon! Not before the 14th age anyway, its as easy as this! I fear dark work yet still lies here yet to be purged! We leave whence it goes and when our job tis done and not before!! Too much culture not enough war! This is Total War we must rebuild and undust the armour already forged!Im aghast at talk of songs and friviolous things when the curse of The Eldar lives yet upon this soil! I say arise build forges and ships their is fell work yet to be done! Off on me Hols to Mandos! lol Feanor
Ps:/Edit: Fingolfin says Aikanars Middle Earth lore submod should be be standard inclusion with all!

[SigniferOne]

Good ideas. But I don't think the Elves should be swimming in cash, but they should definatly be better off than they are at the moment.

I think the Elves should be swimming in cash, without there being any way to meaningfully translate that into a battlefield victory.

They need to be very introverted as a culture, involving the player to be very introverted in Elvish matters, and largely forgetting about the outside wars and conflicts (unless they concern the faction directly).

[Jean=A=Luc]

The idea needs some polishing but I like it.

A few more suggestions:

1. Military academy-like buildings that give several points of experience levels to units making the elven small Elven army even more elite.

2. Special educational buildings that give very beneficial ancillaries/traits. They could be separated into military/civilian branches.

3. Various "workshops" that produce exotic goods like Lembas (only in Lothlorien?), Miruvor (only in Rivendell?). These should not be traded probably but should give bonuses like happiness, public health, special ancillaries (maybe make it similar to "supplies" from SS, Lembas gives bonus movement points while Miruvor incerases troop morale but they run out after several turns and need to be "refilled" in settlements).

Other candidates could be winers, jewelers, tailors, etc. These should probably be dependant on map resources like grapes, precious stones and textiles respectively.

[SigniferOne]

The idea needs some polishing but I like it.

A few more suggestions:

1. Military academy-like buildings that give several points of experience levels to units making the elven small Elven army even more elite.

2. Special educational buildings that give very beneficial ancillaries/traits. They could be separated into military/civilian branches.

3. Various "workshops" that produce exotic goods like Lembas (only in Lothlorien?), Miruvor (only in Rivendell?). There should not be traded probably but should give bonuses like happiness, public health, special ancillaries (maybe make it similar to "supplies" from SS, Lembas gives bonus movement points while Miruvor incerases troop morale but they run out after several turns and need to be "refilled" in settlements).

I think one of the central points of my suggestion is that these Elvish structures be not convertible into direct military advantages (although I like the traits/ancillaries idea). There need to exist Elvish buildings which exist for no other purpose regarding the outside world, than for the Elvish faction to have them. You could have a Poetry Circle add a bonus to settlement happiness -- when it is already at 200% and could not be brought any higher.

Why build it then? Because you're and Elf, you like poetry, you can take part in poetry competitions, it's fun to take part in scripted things, etc. We need to restrain this need to make Elvish buildings 'practical', which they most strongly would have looked down on. But I challenge you to not feel like and Elf when playing this faction and taking part in these events, which -- ultimately is what the whole point should be.

[RadioactiveMan]

Interesting- I admit I was not aware that retraining ever had a limit other than the recruitment limit per turn imposed by the size of the town/castle.

[Jean=A=Luc]

I think one of the central points of my suggestion is that any of these Elvish structures not be directly convertible into military advantages (although I like the traits/ancillaries idea).

I see. I don't think a "military academy" disrupts your concept too much because it doesn't add to your troop numbers and its impact is fairly subtle. Your small army still has to run left and right trying to keep up with emergent threats.Think of it as late game progression although potentially it would require some effort to "balance in".

While I agree that such Elven buildings (like the poetry circle) need not be practical in the classical sense I prefer to see it have some useful impact however small. Not because I have something against idle pleasures but because an actual effect makes the immersion that much deeper.

For example, let's say that as a result of the "poetry contest" script a general present in the settlement receives a "poetry contest winner" trait that gives popularity and/or troop morale. For me this makes the whole thing much more satisfying and "real" than just some text saying "that there was a poetry contest" or getting a happiness bonus to a settlement that's already euphoric at 210%.

Imagine musical education-related structures that would allow your generals to compose (provided they spend enough time in the settlement and probably fulfill some other difficult requirements) something like an "epic hymn" or an "inspirational marching song" giving various appropriate bonuses.

These would be expensive high-tier buildings that would require quite a lot of time to provide the full scope of benefits which would keep the elves, as you say, introverted and busy with their own stuff, but would also yield some rewards if enough time is dedicated to them. At the same time it simulates the Elves' long lived dedication to their work. Imo that "reward" is what gives fulfillment to the "role playing" aspect of the whole thing. You feel it has substance because of the actual impact it makes.

In any case, I'm just musing, not trying to derail your idea or anything.

[SigniferOne]

In any case, I'm just musing, not trying to derail your idea or anything.

I like your ideas. I think you're starting to think alongside my lines now, there is a lot of uniqueness and flavor that can be injected into playing an Elven faction.

[Garet Jax]

1. Military academy-like buildings that give several points of experience levels to units making the elven small Elven army even more elite.

Now this is something i would love to see. I used to love capturing a enemy settlement that provided 3 bronze chevrons to new recruits and one of my favorite aspects of the game is the reward of using the same army for most of my battles and watching them grow from new recruits to battle hardened soldiers.

[fett2288]

I love the idea of giving the elves tons of cash but lowering recruitment pools. The possibility of screwing up the ai is an issue, though.

Also, I don't know if retraining is really a loophole as you still have to wait to have enough units in the pool to retrain them.

[maxi90]

i like your ideas. the only problem i can find is that the AI wouldn´t be a chalenge for the non-elve player. in fact, i think that there is a risk of having all the elves destroyed before turn 50 with such low recruitment pools (when the player is using some other faction, of course). but other than that, i think it would add much more deepness to the game.

[SigniferOne]

i like your ideas. the only problem i can find is that the AI wouldn´t be a chalenge for the non-elve player. in fact, i think that there is a risk of having all the elves destroyed before turn 50 with such low recruitment pools (when the player is using some other faction, of course). but other than that, i think it would add much more deepness to the game.

It's all a matter of balance. I didn't actually give any numbers for 'such low recruitment pools'. Elves need to be very strong but also rare, although the actual replenishment numbers are to be decided based on game balance.

But in general, the AI has a garrison script kicking in, while if you as a player have been careless and got all of your stacks slaughtered at the Black Gate, why shouldn't even the smallest Orc army come and take over your settlements? You are immortal and new Elves do not appear. If you've wasted your inheritance and lost all of your men, it's no one's fault but yourself.

Realistically you should sit in the woods with your large stack, and sit in ambush protecting your settlements, whilst within you're all into poetry and song. The Men are the ones you need to place all your hope on, so you need to watch for when they head out for Mordor to have your stack join them, or else spend your vast resources to try to build up their economy and help them.

[Belphegor]

I really like the way you are going with this. It is a pain to see bankrupt elves, who cannot afford some basic structures. So I agree that toning down the recruitment pool, while upgrading the retraining pool is the way to go.

But the thing is not to underpower the elven armies this way, perhaps elven units should be given a small boost in some areas - actualy I was only thinking about hit points, to make up for the lack of fresh units.

I like the new buildings idea, to make elven gameplay very specific, and new touch, but I think they should provide small bonuses for the elves - traits, anciliaries or exp. for units.


But the biggest thing for the elves, is to make the AI know how to use them in battle. I've tried a few Autoresolves just to see how it goes, and battles that I would have won without a problem ended in crushing defeats - as the AI does not know how to utilize the potential of elven archers. This is not for the sake of the player, but for the sake of preserving the elven factions (or the other elven faction) to survive.