Ptolemaic Empire tactics/strategy?

[Lobo Solitario]

Hi all,

Would anyone be willing to give me some advice on how to best play the Ptolemaic Empire? I recently started my first campaign with them, and even with training wheels on (M/M, no AI bonuses) I'm finding it very hard going - unless I can pull off some military miracles in the next dozen turns, Egypt is likely to become another satrapy of the Seleucid Empire.

I went into the campaign assuming that the Ptolemaic Empire would play pretty much like other Hellenistic factions, especially in military terms. I took Antioch by treachery on turn two, and accepted to become a Seleucid protectorate shortly afterwards, aiming to garner some allies along the borders of the Seleucid Empire while the treaty lasted, in the hope that some of them would support me when hostilities resumed. Although this worked in theory, none of my allies have actually gone to war with the Seleucid Empire in the whole campaign (except for Armenia, during the brief time it took for the Seleucids to overrun them in Tarsis, which I had gifted to them). Saba accepted an early alliance with me, but after a few misunderstandings over the Eastern Kingdoms and an attempted naval invasion on their part, we are now firm enemies. Funnily enough, the only Seleucid neighbour which preferred to remain allied to them are now my best chance of salvation - the Parthians have overrun Baktria and most of India, and now their only remaining path of expansion is into Seleucid lands.

My protectorate status with the Seleucids lasted a lot longer than I expected. During this time I launched an invasion against the Eastern Kingdoms regions in the southern Nile, and focused on building up my economy and Hellenising the Nile valley. In hindsight, this was a serious mistake, as was delaying conflict with the Seleucids longer than necessary. The regions of the southern Nile turned out to have massive levels of unrest, and I was forced to exterminate the populations and install large garrisons in order to keep hold of them. I don't think any of them have even started to break even supporting their own garrisons yet, let alone start to repay the cost of the invasion. Attempting to Hellenise the rest of the Nile also tied up huge amounts of time, troops and money. With my economy stretched thin, plans to build higher level barracks were delayed, depriving me of Cleruch troops.

When war came, I found that my levy and Machimoi phalangites collapsed like wet tissue paper against their Seleucid and Greek equivalents, and that I didn't have any troops capable of holding ground against Thureophoroi, Thorakitai or Hoplites on the wings. Advanced barracks are under construction in Alexandria, in the hope that Cleruch phalangites will at least give my armies a fighting chance in a field battle, although I still have no idea how to hold the wings until I have access to Basilikon Guard units - I'm currently aiming to try Ethiopian axemen, screened by Nubian spearmen or levy spearmen to protect them from projectile units, and attempting to ship some Greek Hoplites from Salamis.

My current campaign may or may not recover, but I hope that I have learned some valuable lessons from it - if I start another campaign, I would probably leave the southern Nile alone, since it seems cheaper to pay for a defensive stack to deter invasions by the EK and Saba, at least until the Seleucid front is firmly under control. I would also try to take out Cyrenaica as early as possible without weakening attacks on the Seleucids, since the city seems well worth having, and removes one potential enemy from the mix (in my current game it recently joined my empire as a sweetener to becoming a protectorate of the Independent Greeks). As for the Seleucids, I would go on a full offense, in an attempt to stop them building any high level barracks, attacking with skirmisher-heavy armies and maybe a few stacks of pure skirmisher cavalry, following a doctrine of mobility and guerilla warfare rather than the Macedonian hammer and anvil, while advancing to the higher level barracks as fast as possible in order to be able to field (hopefully) strong Hellenic style field armies.

Those are my conclusions, but I would welcome any advice from more veteran players - army composition, battlefield tactics, grand strategy, build orders, anything would be very much appreciated!

[TM Is Back]

Well, it seemed you were on the good road I think.

What I would do is, when you restart the campaign, the following. Inmedeadly built higher level barrack's in Alexandria and Memphis. Quickly Western Civilize your Empire. Btw, my strategy is always to gain as much money as possible. So in any city that is not directly next to Alexandria I built a temple to Horus (Law Bonus) to deal with the coruption.) At the same time sent diplomats to every conner of the world. Try to get alliances with: Pontus, Armenia, Scytia, The Independent Greek City States, Parthia and Bactria. They might come in handy. For example when you find youselve in war with TSE and you see a TSE unit next to and IDGCS unit(who must be your ally) attack the TSE one. IDGCS will go to war with TSE.

Should TSE deside to attack you instead of an other AI, then you'll have to defend. Make some Militia Phalangites to hold the center (2 on top of each other) and many Peltasts. Use your Peltasts to deal with the enemy Elephants and Phalangites!(important as they kill yours with ease)

Wait untill you find Damascus and Antioch almost unprotected, when your lucky the Seleucid main stack will go to another place so you can take the two cities with great ease. Then quickly make sure you protect the border with TSE. March on Palmyra and conquer it. Then onto Seleucia. You must take risks, otherwise you will find yourselve in a war of Attrition which you'll lose for sure.

When Seleucia is captured the world is yours.

My army would consist of:
Six Phalangites (as best as possible)
Some peltasts to take our Elephants and very dangerous enemy's.
As best flank protecting troops as possible.
Four or more cavalry with which you can get behind the enemy's lines to charge them in the back.

In battle my strategy would be:
. __________
---========---
||| ............... |||

For example:

--- are the flank protecting troops
=== are the Phalangites.
___ are the Peltasts in skirmisher mode on and fire at will OFF
||| are the Cavalry.

If you attack TSE:

ALWAYS GET THE HIGHER GROUND!!!!!

March towards the enemy. Not to close. When you reach a certain point the enemy will attack you, for they see Skirmishers that are unprotected. What happens then is that your Peltasts will run away behind your Phalangites. Then when they see that the Peltasts are protected the enemy will no longer attack but retreat to their lines. Now is the time to strike as they have turned their backs to you. If the unit is worth you javalins(not against Doryphroi for example but against Hoplites) trow some into their backs. Do this as long as you want and have javalins.

Then march towards the enemy. Hold a bit short of them. They will attack. Quickly move your cavalry around the lines and charge the enemy from the rear. (You can do the same with other units you have for example the Peltasts) Charge in and out. Try to find their gerenal and kill him.

This way victory should come.

In defence it is harder as they wont retreat back to their lines. But the principle is the same. Flanking an charging.

[Scutarii]

In my opinion, the Ptolemaic roster feels very unfinished. They lack the Thuro's and Thorakitai or the other greek factions, so they need something like the Galatian Klerouch to make up for it.

For now, use Nubians to guard the ends of the phalanx. Make good use of Nubian cavalry as well, they're awesome as skirmish cav, since they can also mount an effective charge with their backup spears. Greek hoplites and Thuro's from Salamis can be useful too so build up population and auxilary buildings there.

I would keep a decent army in Sidon to ward off TSE attacks. Then work at hellenizing your empire (the two cities below Thebes and Thebes itself are all eastern, convert them before they get too large) and building some decent barracks in Memphis and Alexandria. Then its just a matter of building up a decent army and taking the fight to TSE. Seize Damascus when you're ready, and then Antioch. If you play with the garrison scripts, you'll need a tough army to beat the Antioch garrison. Beat the crap out of my only army last time I played them.

[AchillesXX]

I have never played the Ptolomies before, but I think I may have a go at them for my next campaign. I thought a good strategy might be to give your province in southern Asia Minor (may be Cilicia?) to Pontus. That would almost gaurantee a war between them and TSE, buying you precious time.

[TM Is Back]

@ Achilles XX

That is not true. The AI almost always attacks the player first. If you give the city to Pontus they will simply hold it. Remember that when Pontus conquers Capadonia they already border at three points with TSE, but war does not come easilly there. Nor with IDGCS who borders TSE 5 times.

[Lobo Solitario]

Inmedeadly built higher level barrack's in Alexandria and Memphis. Quickly Western Civilize your Empire.

Many thanks for the detailed advice, TM Is Back! Do you build Western Civilised colonies for all of your towns early on, or just for the large ones like Thebes? I found that I had to divert a lot of money and troops to get the rest of the starting provinces to Western Civilised, resources that were much needed on the eastern front.

in any city that is not directly next to Alexandria I built a temple to Horus (Law Bonus) to deal with the coruption.

Great tip, I keep forgetting that law bonus reduces the effects of corruption.

when you find youselve in war with TSE and you see a TSE unit next to and IDGCS unit(who must be your ally) attack the TSE one. IDGCS will go to war with TSE.

Also a great tip - in my game there were several stacks of IDGCS units camping around Tarsis while it was under Seleucid control, and I could have easily started a war there. Although I try to avoid abusing the AI any more than necessary, this would be an acceptable way to make AI allies honour their alliances when the situation arises.

Make some Militia Phalangites to hold the center (2 on top of each other) and many Peltasts. Use your Peltasts to deal with the enemy Elephants and Phalangites!(important as they kill yours with ease)

Do you also stack your phalangites in the standard army you detail later on in your post, or is this just to compensate for the weakness of Militia Phalangites? I used to use this technique in vanilla RTW, but I've forbidden myself from using it now, as it's not fair on the AI. To make up for not using it, I would probably go for more peltasts or slingers to weaken enemy phalangites.

Wait untill you find Damascus and Antioch almost unprotected, when your lucky the Seleucid main stack will go to another place so you can take the two cities with great ease.

I experienced this too - the main stack headed east on turn one, allowing me to take Antioch on turn two with a spy and a small stack. There always seemed to be a full stack army hanging round Damascus though.

Then when they see that the Peltasts are protected the enemy will no longer attack but retreat to their lines. Now is the time to strike as they have turned their backs to you.

Another handy tip which I can't use (except perhaps with horse archers) as it goes against my house rule of trying not to abuse predictable AI behaviour any more than possible.

In my opinion, the Ptolemaic roster feels very unfinished. They lack the Thuro's and Thorakitai or the other greek factions, so they need something like the Galatian Klerouch to make up for it.

Many thanks for your contributions as well, Scutarii! I do find it hard going without the Thureophoroi and Thorakitai, but it is an interesting change of pace to have to adapt to new tactics and army layouts! After checking the Nubian Spearmen stats yesterday, their attack and defence values are more than a match for Thureophoroi, although their lack of armour is always a serious liability.

Make good use of Nubian cavalry as well, they're awesome as skirmish cav, since they can also mount an effective charge with their backup spears.

Effective indeed, although they tend to die fast in combat. I've been thinking of making some stacks of pure Nubian Cavalry, as a variation on Scythian/Parthian tactics.

Greek hoplites and Thuro's from Salamis can be useful too so build up population and auxilary buildings there.

This is something I only noticed recently, and a great reason to build Auxiliary Barracks on Salamis as soon as possible. Do you know if any other provinces in Asia Minor or in the Mediterranean provide these auxiliaries as well? It would seem well worth launching an early naval invasion of Crete and Rhodes if they can provide Hoplites and Thureophoroi auxiliaries in addition to their normal benefits.

I would keep a decent army in Sidon to ward off TSE attacks. Then work at hellenizing your empire (the two cities below Thebes and Thebes itself are all eastern, convert them before they get too large) and building some decent barracks in Memphis and Alexandria.

This seems to be a common theme so far...

Then its just a matter of building up a decent army and taking the fight to TSE. Seize Damascus when you're ready, and then Antioch. If you play with the garrison scripts, you'll need a tough army to beat the Antioch garrison. Beat the crap out of my only army last time I played them.

So far I've avoided the garrison script, a stack full of elite Thorakitai is more than I can stomach

I have never played the Ptolomies before, but I think I may have a go at them for my next campaign. I thought a good strategy might be to give your province in southern Asia Minor (may be Cilicia?) to Pontus. That would almost gaurantee a war between them and TSE, buying you precious time.

Side, if I remember correctly - Cilicia(Tarsis) is Seleucid. I gave this one up to the Independent Greeks, but they never entered into conflict with the Seleucids. From my Seleucid game, their provinces near Side don't have any barracks, at least when played by a human, so it may be better to keep hold of this province in order to attack these weak provinces. In my game, these isolated Seleucid provinces survived and prospered happily, and probably made the Seleucid Empire wads of cash by trade with Europe.

[silentsam74]

Also a great tip - in my game there were several stacks of IDGCS units camping around Tarsis while it was under Seleucid control, and I could have easily started a war there. Although I try to avoid abusing the AI any more than necessary, this would be an acceptable way to make AI allies honour their alliances when the situation arises.

Something I have noticed is that in my experience the AI tends to favor the attacker almost always when two of its allies go to war. At first I had thought that they always picked against the human player. But, then, I'm not a warmonger in my campaigns. The times I have attacked it seems the AI has stuck with my alliance.

[Webba]

Something I have noticed is that in my experience the AI tends to favor the attacker almost always when two of its allies go to war. At first I had thought that they always picked against the human player. But, then, I'm not a warmonger in my campaigns. The times I have attacked it seems the AI has stuck with my alliance.

It's not almost always, it is always. I've never ever seen an ai faction side with the defender in any circumstances. It's very silly but that seems to be the way it is.

[TM Is Back]

Well afcaurse, those tricks are only to be used when you are in real trubble, as they are a bit unfair.

About the colony's. What I do is the following:

Turn one : I built temples everywhere to get rid of the coruption.
Turn two and higher: I start building a city barracks in Alexandria. In the other city's I keep upgrading the temples. If that can't be done anymore, then I built farms to stimulate population growth and income. After that is gone I start building colony's. Not to many at a time, for money is short. I also built some diplomats to spread the culture in those land already a bit. Whatever you do, don't sent more troops west. That is not needed. Just make sure the public order does not get below 70% while converting the population with diplomats. When the colony's are finished you can use those diplomats for other regions or tasks.

Ambushing the AI is not fair I agree. I always try to play as fair as possible. This trick with your allies is just, well as you said, honouring the alliance.

About the Phalangites, I only use that trick with Militia Phalangites as they stand no change at all against any-one. Even two on op of each other are easilly slaughtered by normal Phalangites. It's just that it takes a bit longer^^ You could also place themb ehind each other, but that would leave less space for your Peltasts. And only in city's. Outsite the city's I never place them on top of each other. I use them only as a weak anvil, so that my hammer can finish the enemy.

About the cavalry that die quickly in battle, that's supposed to be. I play with XGM Command (Bal I love you), to be found in the sub-forum, so my cavalry has a higher charge bonus then in normal XGM. It really makes cavalry more usefull. However they still die quickly in combat, so charge and get out, charge and get out etc.

[Lobo Solitario]

Cheers for the build order, TM Is Back - looks like I'm going to have to fine-tune my colonisation efforts. Diplomats are definetly a big help in converting populations.

A cheap trick I used to use to toughen up my phalangites in vanilla RTW was to place a non-phalanx defensive unit (normally spearmen) overlapping the front of one or more phalanxes, with the pikes passing through them. This acted as a sponge to soak up charges and missile fire, and helped to prevent heavy infantry from forcing the phalangites into melee, allowing them to get good use out of their pikes. Not particularly beneficial against other phalangites though. In XGM my skirmisher screen tends to blunt cavalry charges on my phalangites, as they often can't skirmish through the lines quickly enough to avoid the charge.

As for the cavalry, in general I'm enjoying the balance in standard XGM (1hp mode) - my heavy cavalry still performs well, but I can't rout whole armies with one bodyguard unit like I could in vanilla RTW. It's the Nubian Cavalry in particular that I find fragile, but they're easy to replace and they do a lot of damage, so it's no big deal.

[GoldShield Guard]

Cheers for the build order, TM Is Back - looks like I'm going to have to fine-tune my colonisation efforts. Diplomats are definetly a big help in converting populations.

I do not understand this. How a diplomat can help in converting populations to your culture? I have finished Romans now in my GCS campaign and I am reluctant to go for the Gauls, due to the constant need for colonisation. I am very interesting in this point.

[TM Is Back]

Yes, but in XGM there almost is no such thing as "cheap" units as even Levy Spearmen cost 200 a turn. About the skirmishers, when cavalry charges them, withdraw them yourselves. That way they should be save in time. However, if it is Heavy Cavalry, or even the Generals Bodyguards that is charging, then you have a problem as they will break the phalanx with great ease. So always have som spare units to trow in the fight quickly.

Luckilly that ain't possible in XGM. The cavalry is fine in XGM. A good charge, if done well afcaurse, but weak in melee as it should be.

[Lobo Solitario]

Well, I was using "cheap trick" more in the sense of "dirty trick" - it's pretty unfair on the AI to make it fight a defensive melee unit and a pike wall at the same time. Nowadays I do as you say, and keep Hoplites or the equivalent in reserve to plug the gaps when the phalanx is breached.

Not withdrawing the skirmishers manually is pure laziness on my part - if they get caught by cavalry before withdrawing through the phalanx line, they blunt the enemy charge, for the cheap price of a few peltasts, which I find acceptable to keep my phalanx line reasonably intact. This is again probably unfair on the AI, as it normally ends in a massacre for their heavy cavalry, with little to show for it. Sometimes I just can't help myself though...

I do not understand this. How a diplomat can help in converting populations to your culture? I have finished Romans now in my GCS campaign and I am reluctant to go for the Gauls, due to the constant need for colonisation. I am very interesting in this point.

Diplomats tend to (always?) have traits such as barbarian/western civilised/eastern civilised, which give bonuses to converting population to their culture in a region. This should also be handy for converting enemy populations and causing revolts, although I haven't got around to trying it out yet - I've read about people doing it in the "post your empires" thread though.

To achieve population conversion, all you have to do is park the diplomat in a region, and they will attempt to convert X% of the population to their culture, just like priests in MTW/MTW II. You'll need to place enough of them to overcome the natural conversion rate in the region. Watch out for bribed diplomats, as they may have different cultural traits.

[GoldShield Guard]

Diplomats tend to (always?) have traits such as barbarian/western civilised/eastern civilised, which give bonuses to converting population to their culture in a region. This should also be handy for converting enemy populations and causing revolts, although I haven't got around to trying it out yet - I've read about people doing it in the "post your empires" thread though.

To achieve population conversion, all you have to do is park the diplomat in a region, and they will attempt to convert X% of the population to their culture, just like priests in MTW/MTW II. You'll need to place enough of them to overcome the natural conversion rate in the region. Watch out for bribed diplomats, as they may have different cultural traits.

Wow!! I am astonished! That's why the filthy Germans have sent a diplomat exactly in front of every former barbarian (thracian) city of mine, just standing there! And I was wondering why the excessive unrest... I need an army of assassins right now!!

Thank you very much for the info!

[TM Is Back]

Diplomats always have a trait of their civilization.

So if your a Western Civilized faction, your diplomats will have a +5% western immigration trait.

[Scutarii]

The only thing I'd like to add is that keeping Side is a better option, in my opinion, than abandoning it. Good source of troops (later a base for an attack into Asia Minor) as it has the Cilicians (another alternative if you can't get Nubians that far North). Also, I only really get attacked by TSE there (not indie greeks, unless they get big and conflict is inevitable anyways), so no big loss... Only really distracting TSE armies.

The diplomat army is the only way to efficiently convert provinces. I hate that the AI can convert all their provinces by 270 BC, even TSE....