The Great Spirit - Native American Addition Mod UPDATE VERSION 1.2 RELEASED! Empire 1.3 Compatible

[Demokritos]

Regarding the question about if or how the Iroquois used feathers, see for example http://www.nativetech.org/clothing/regions/region5.html. The Iroquois men did wear a "feathered cap with various emblems to represent different tribes, which was well-known as a gustoweh. For example, a headdress with three eagle feathers represented a man as a Mohawk". One feather in the gustoweh signified the Seneca. But not all Iroquois men of a given tribe wore gustowehs.

Regarding the efficiency of bows and arrows, I've picked up the following information:
A quiver could contain up to 100 arrows (among the Plains nations), and a good archer could dispatch 15-20 arrows/minute. The very best of them could kill a bison with a single arrow - from horseback.

But arrows could not penetrate shields made of buffalo bull neck hide hardened in smoke. Even bullets slide off such shields if they hit them a bit obliquely.

Before the repeating rifle, three arrows could be shot during the same time as one rifle shot. But in 1838, a new colt rifle of some model could fire five shots without reloading. When the American Civil War ended, this colt rifle was said to still be the only weapon more efficient than the bows and arrows of the Indians from horseback.

History now shows clearly that when the eastern woodland tribes acquired firearms, they invariably got the upper hand against native enemies that still used bows and arrows to a greater degree. I think this can be explained by the fact that (1) the buffalo skin shirts or similar gear which some tribes wore as protection against arrows did not work against bullets, and (2) arrows are more easily deflected among the many natural obstacles (like twigs and leaves) in the woods.

But out on open terrain like the prairies, the effiency of bows and arrows are not hampered in any way. Here, any party armed with muskets would not get quite the same advantage over bows and arrows for another reason, for these already rather cumbersome weapons must have been more difficult to handle on horseback than on the ground.

[Vonwolfi]

Nice information Demo, i've seen much of the same as well, good to put it out there

Also, I think it will be very important to portray the different types of bows... Bieng as we are covering such a wide range of regions.. Natives had everything from light horse bows, to longbows that you would have to essentially plant in the ground, to composite bows... Huge difference in use, effectiveness and range...

Irmo can pretty easily do this, if we simply provide him the statistics by unit and faction, for the type of bows they would have...

I bet you we could change the ratio of heavy forest maps in the Northeast regions, and also add a penalty for bows firing into woods... ?

That would be neat...

[Demokritos]

I bet you we could change the ratio of heavy forest maps in the Northeast regions, and also add a penalty for bows firing into woods... ?

That would be neat...

That was exactly my thinking.

[Irmo]

Nice information Demo, i've seen much of the same as well, good to put it out there

Also, I think it will be very important to portray the different types of bows... Bieng as we are covering such a wide range of regions.. Natives had everything from light horse bows, to longbows that you would have to essentially plant in the ground, to composite bows... Huge difference in use, effectiveness and range...

Irmo can pretty easily do this, if we simply provide him the statistics by unit and faction, for the type of bows they would have...

Yes - this would be dead easy to do. You would also have to tell me which bows to give to which units though. I can also give the natives different muskets from the Colonists, if you think that would be suitable.

I bet you we could change the ratio of heavy forest maps in the Northeast regions, and also add a penalty for bows firing into woods... ?

That would be neat...

Not as easy - but I'm sure there is a way to do at least the former with a db table. There may be a db table for the latter as well, but I am not sure.

As always, I aprreciate your research Deomkritos - very useful!

[Irmo]

Have finished all the unit rosters for all factions - they should all lead to a (hopefully) different gaming experience - either completely different (in terms of Comanche) or just slightly different.

[Aloicias]

Sorry to be sucha stick in the mud, but I have a few pointers that might help you out?

Mohawks, and pretty much all the tribes that fought in the French-Indian war, would go into battle bare chested, with often just a loin cloth. Some did wear fur/skin breeches though, that went midway up their thigh.

The Iroquois peoples were heavily pierced. by this I mean they had many many piercings in their faces and ears.

Also, Mohawks didn't wear feather plumes/head dresses usually (looking at your latest screeny). Instead they did their hair in a particular fashion (exactly like in your signature) as did most of the tribes (each having their own particular style). However, the other tribes of the Iroquois did use feathers in their hair, but it was tied into the knot at the back of their head and not the front, like western plains war chiefs.

Here is a good picture:



Also, the bow had almost entirely died a death in the tribes now, with only the NA's on the western plains still using them during this time period. All of the stone arrow makers had pretty much died, with the young warrior elite preferring the musket or rifle. This was a major downfall for the Tribes as they couldn't produce their own powder, creating a heavy reliance on the English/French traders. Often tribes would sell huge swathes of land for powder (and rum ) when it was a long winter or they had not bought/traded enough food for the winter, or they had traded all their furs for rum (which was most often the case), leaving their tribe short handed.

Iroquois ridin to war on horseback is another no-no, as the land they inhabited an fought in were mainly forrested areas.


A good artist to look up for good and accurate Tribal references is Robert Griffing, some of his works a stunning and highly detailed.

That is a very good picture, but it isnt specifically representative of the Mohawk. I think off the top of my head it is Annishinabe or representative of the traditional alliance of Ojibwe, Ottawa, and Potawatomi. Specifically taking a fort during the Pontiac rebellion. Your right though the general braves of the Iroquois did wear more of a general woodlands hair/headdress. Which seem to include more turkey and other non eagle feathers. The eagle feathers mean things amoung the Iroquois, Algonquin (Three Fires) and Siouian tribes. While tribes like the Comanche they didnt have significance. The Kestowah, and deer antler headdresses seem to be more common with sachems (Chiefs leadership, war and peace). The number and way you wear the feathers denotes which tribe of the confederacy you are in;



I know that would



Vonwolfi- Wow great work man. Some of the best Ive seen. I really like your units. I specifically like the Iroquois with the side face tatoo of the flower/ sun. There are some resources out there for Iroquois tatoos. Ive got some pictures of specific Iroquois tatoos in an album on my profile page. There were a group of sachems that went to England and got their paintings painted around 1700. Which are really cool.

There was something specifcally just as a suggestion, Iroquois, "Huron" and Cherokee units can have more colored leggins, breachcloth and mocassins made out of trade cloth. Which means mainly colored dark blue, green, and red. THe plains tribes were still in just about exclusive buckskins. Also I have cut and pasted some beadwork tribal specific patterns onto some of the leggings, breachcloths and sachels. You can find all on the internet though there are quite abit of generico fakes out there.

I bet Huron resources are hard to find. Thats more due to a CA historical mistake. The Huron were a very small group of advisors and mediators in this time. There was a large faction at Saulte St. Marie, but it was the Huron who sent pipes to the Ottawa, and Ojibwe. The Ottawa and Ojibwe were the leaders of the alliance. The Huron were really a very well respected subordinate. But the bulk of the braves came from the Ojibwe, Potawatomi, and Ottawa. Really the Hurons main influence in this time period was over the Shawnee Mingo Ohio tribes than the Ottawa, Ojibwe, Potawatomi (Three fires confederacy, Annishinabeg (various spellings from different languages all the same; Nishnabe), AKA Pay's d'en Haut (French, refered to as such in "Crucible of War")). Look for Potawatomi, Ojibwe, Ottawa you'll find more references as that is what the faction should have been.

The elites of the Irquois would have been the Mohawk wolf and bear clans, keepers of the eastern door. You could name general Iroquois warriors and archers covenant chain blank....As representative of all the captured warriors absorbed into the tribe. Other suggestions for unit names specifically what I think your calling Mohawk...you could go even more specific and call them Brant's (Joseph Brant, though I guess it might work for his grandpa too) Band or Brant's Mohawk warparty. Also the Seneca as kind of fence riders later on, or in reference to Orkansky.

Great job.

[Vonwolfi]

And skins are coming soon! I've slowed down abit to make sure the units come out balanced and somewhat historically accurate, but the source material is coming together, and skins are in progress!!

[Vonwolfi]

That is a very good picture, but it isnt specifically representative of the Mohawk. I think off the top of my head it is Annishinabe or representative of the traditional alliance of Ojibwe, Ottawa, and Potawatomi. Specifically taking a fort during the Pontiac rebellion. Your right though the general braves of the Iroquois did wear more of a general woodlands hair/headdress. Which seem to include more turkey and other non eagle feathers. The eagle feathers mean things amoung the Iroquois, Algonquin (Three Fires) and Siouian tribes. Specific The Kestowah, and deer antler headdresses seem to be more common with sachems (Chiefs leadership, war and peace). The number and way you wear the feathers denotes which tribe of the confederacy you are in;






Vonwolfi- Wow great work man. Some of the best Ive seen. I really like your units. I specifically like the Iroquois with the side face tatoo of the flower/ sun. There are some resources out there for Iroquois tatoos. Ive got some pictures of specific Iroquois tatoos in an album on my profile page. There were a group of sachems that went to England and got their paintings painted around 1700. Which are really cool.

There was something specifcally just as a suggestion, Iroquois, "Huron" and Cherokee units can have more colored leggins, breachcloth and mocassins made out of trade cloth. Which means mainly colored dark blue, green, and red. THe plains tribes were still in just about exclusive buckskins. Also I have cut and pasted some beadwork tribal specific patterns onto some of the leggings, breachcloths and sachels. You can find all on the internet though there are quite abit of generico fakes out there.

I bet Huron resources are hard to find. Thats more due to a CA historical mistake. The Huron were a very small group of advisors and mediators in this time. There was a large faction at Saulte St. Marie, but it was the Huron who sent pipes to the Ottawa, and Ojibwe. The Ottawa and Ojibwe were the leaders of the alliance. The Huron were really a very well respected subordinate. But the bulk of the braves came from the Ojibwe, Potawatomi, and Ottawa. Really the Hurons main influence in this time period was over the Shawnee Mingo Ohio tribes than the Ottawa, Ojibwe, Potawatomi (Three fires confederacy, Annishinabeg (various spellings from different languages all the same; Nishnabe), AKA Pay's d'en Haut (French, refered to as such in "Crucible of War")). Look for Potawatomi, Ojibwe, Ottawa you'll find more references as that is what the faction should have been.

Great job.

Thanks for the great/usefull input man!!! I am working right now on the Plains Objibwe, Red river region right now, I think you will be happy to see the 'trade-cloth' factor making itself more apparrent among the units as they get closer to being completed in the Three Rivers, and like you said the Cherokee, and the Iroquoi...-I was coming to some of the same conclusions myself!!

Also, I will be going back over all the Iroquoi units that I originally did, and re-doing some of the beadwork and panels....The reason my first Hurons and Iroquoi have more buckskin and less beadwork, is basically because I created them before I joined the GS mod, and I had intended to skin all the vanilla Native factions without changing the factions, in other words I was making a generic 'regional' look on these, not really an fully accurate-to-the-tribe look. - Norhtern tribes would be more heavily clothed, cherokee more cloth more jewelry etc... But NOW we're going for much more Accuracy....

Again, as you said (good advice) I have actually started going into the process of making all the beadwork and panels/bags historically accurate, and all units going forward will be beaded, belted, and bagged as accurately as possible...... In fact, the moccasins on many units are already authentic patterns, the bags on the units I am working on are not only Tribe specific , but most are PERIOD specific, which made them very hard to find....

Nice info on the Feathers too, will definitely use that info...! Very usefull, as, you will notice, on the skins that havent been released yet, all feathers on units will be regional to the tribe that owns them!

To Everyone waiting for the next version: Be patient!! Things are really coming together from the modding and skinning side, I think you all will be blown away by the new factors this mod will bring to the table, and, the skins not only will be somewhat historically accurate and much improved over vanilla, but because of the versitility of the blue layer in the dds files, I've found a way to mess with the models to a degree pretty drastically, as well as the textures....

[Aloicias]

Thank you very much for doing these units. I have tried myself unsuccessfully for along time now. You have a very good eye. Ive tried to get other unit makers to see the differences. But...

I am part of the Social group. I have put some of the beadwork Ive found on my profile. The best and farthest progress Ive made is just copy and pasting these paterns in. Many of the Algonquin and Iroquois can be pretty much similiar with woodland patterns. The Cherokee seem abit different on the bead work it seems. I have some info and pics for the CHerokee. For paint patterns my best suggestion for the Cherokee is the North Carolina Cherokee historical group. They have a slide show with some very good pics but Ive had trouble getting still shots.

i figured the Dakota and Comanche units would probably have to wait for thier braids which means the cracking of the model code.

Ive listed some more new pics on my profile, and seperated them by tribe.

I can be as patient as need to be, Ive waited atleast a year now.

Keep it up Good job, you the man!

[Vonwolfi]

Well thanks Aloicas, but dont thank me until you see them :p

But with your guy's help we can put it all together and make them look darned good.
Growing up, everone thought I would become a famous artist, and I did do some graphics jobs earlier in life, but real life gets in the way sometimes, maybe with your guys help, I can use my eye a bit here to bring some honor and accuracy to the Native Americans... Its been a while, but this has been some good fun so-far... And the skins will get better and better - The Huron and Iroquoi skins were the first time I picked up the drawing pad in ten-years....

Also, I'll be going along faction by faction. When I post a new skin, throw me your input, even if I make it sound like I think its done. Its not like the Euro-units, there is little-room for innacuracy with thier perfectly uniformed troops and recorded history of costume. so essentially, the native units that I draw are always up for critisism and improvement, and if I'm confident in the historical reason for the change, to be honest, I'll be slightly embarrassed until I go in and make the change, so be assured the changes will get done

Everytime someone brings up a factor like the feathers, or as in our discussion, Demo and the Cherokee colors, it causes discussion, and leads to the skins bieng that much more accurate

[Vonwolfi]

i figured the Dakota and Comanche units would probably have to wait for thier braids which means the cracking of the model code.

Maybe.... Maybe not! it might not be perfect, but I may be able to 'draw-on' some acceptable braids...

I'm not counting on ANYTHING from the elusive 'modding tools'. I'm not confident that they will bring us any of the things we are hoping they are.. of course, I'm unfamiliar w/ what was available for M2tw, or what is bieng claimed, but I dont have my hopes up on it bieng soon, or complete. I'm going forward like they dont exsist...

[Irmo]

Thank you for the info Aloicias, and Vonwolfi - I can't wait to see what you come up with! .

Also, if you can change the model - that will be absolutely awesome!

[Irmo]

Have started working on a better Lakota/Dakota/Sioux unit roster now . Thanks very much for information from Demokritos and Aloicias!

[Irmo]

Have finished the Sioux unit roster!!! I will release a teaser with 2 factions reskinned, and even better unit rosters when I get the full Huron/Three Fires skins from Vonwolfi !

[Vonwolfi]

Have finished the Sioux unit roster!!! I will release a teaser with 2 factions reskinned, and even better unit rosters when I get the full Huron/Three Fires skins from Vonwolfi !

Coming soon... boy this is alot of work, but it will be worth it....

very soon:

Three Fires Nation

4 all new Ojibwe Units including all new Ojibwe long buckskin rifle shirt, and unique Ojibwe feather head-dress
3 all new Red River Saulteaux/ plains Ojibwe units closely adhering to the appearance in 2 contemporary field paintings, Trading for horses with the Cree for your horse units
2 Adjusted Ottawa units some of the 'Huron units from my earlier skins, but adjusted to be factionally accurate.
1 all new Ottawa unit as above, to better depict the Ottawa!

The above are all but done, I may beat my head against the screen for a bit, making sure theyre the way I want them, but, close to where I want em... they will be in your hands soon!

Will be working on the next couple nights: 4 Potawatomi units (These should be fun, the Potawatomi had interesting warpaint, and intricate clothes) and the Generals Bodyguard unit...

Man, these Native units have been very challenging, had to 'create' clothing outta textures on un-intended models, and there is no good 'basis' for ANY of the units... Tons of research had to be done just to get a vague feeling of what the Tribes looked like when they went to war...Trying to apply historically accurate Tattoo's by faction has been slowing me as well, as there are virtually no visual records of Ojibwa/Ottawa specific Tattoo's, there are text references but very vague in description... Hell, even to get an accurate general look, distinct from one another, and historical has been challenging. ... I could not have done these without the input of the very helpful group we have put together here.

If I wasnt a sucker for research, I would have thrown my hands up along time ago....lol But I guess this is a good fit perhaps...
In fact, its what keeps me goin!

[Irmo]

Sounds awesome Vonwolfi!

[Irmo]

Have attached a txt file with some info on the unit roster - these are all the units I have done so far - if anyone wants to check it out. I will add it to the opening post as well

[Irmo]

Just a little note on how some new stuff is developing .

Thanks to demis14, husserlTW and erasmus707, all Native American capital cities will now be major cities! Also, I have bumped up recruitment a bit because 1 slot per city - your never going to be able to build up a decent army like that! Also, I have managed to add new buildings and buildings threads, so hopefully, we will soon be looking at not only faction specific units, but faction specific buildings as well!

[M D]

Definite download, especially the campaign thing..

One question, will you only be able to build native buildings or is it changed? Because native buildings arent that good.
Will rep when I get to 50.

[Irmo]

I know that at the moment the native buildings are terrible - but I am going to make better and more diverse buildings. Also, the native capital city will have 5 buildings slots instead of 1, so your capital won't be bad, and I've made the generic building that you have in minor cities better - you can recruit more now , not just one (which was really annoying).

So hopefully, after the next update (or maybe the one after that, am unsure how quickly the research will come in and I make the buildings), you should get much better native buildings.