Who was better Sparta or Athens???

[Roxas]

I thought we should have an arguement about who was better Sparta or Athens????

Just post your opnions and views and let the debating begin

And dont just say Sparta because you saw 300

[Templar Hospitaller]

It depends. Who had the better fighting force? Sparta. The better navy? Athens. Better economy? Athens. Most badass? Sparta. Where would you rather live? Athens. Who would you rather have on your side? Sparta.

[Phalanx300]

Sparta ofcourse!

Just there way of live and culture is unrivaled! Really fascinating! I would be scared like hell when I would have to face Spartans in battle.

I can already imagine Spartans advancing upon the flutes, with them marching at unison and singing out loud some song. Paen or something I believe? (Someone know what they song? Having a beautifull voice was admired in Sparta so I gues they did sing!)

[Roxas]

More like walking in a ramble sharpening their spears to the sound of Crows eating the corpses of the dead. They were all in for personal glory and were only concentrating on themself and the enemy.

[Huene]

Athens, after all who wants to get the kicked out of them for like 10 years... and thats only the training. also, sparta won most of the battles, but athens won the war.

[grouchy13]

Athens for me Sparta might have the prestige of Thermoplyae and they did defeat Athens in the peloponnesian war but they were never going to be holders of great emipire while they were parlyzed with fear of the helots revolting and it was more a case of Persian gold than of military prowress that defeated Athens in war. Athens however demonstrated there resilience by overcoming serious reverses in the Peloponnesian war plague twice,revolts,Sicilian expedition to keep fighting defeating the Persian financed Spartan fleets time and again until the Spartans could afford to pay the more experienced rowers more money to defect from Athens to the Spartan fleet with there Persian pay masters.

[Templar Hospitaller]

Athens has Marathon.

[Blue_Hoplite85]

well they both had very different advantages
Athens better- Economy, influence around greece, lifestyle, navy, city and politically stable
Sparta- Army, people (more loyal), lower crime rate, better system for society during war

[Wolfshead]

Well every modern person would die living in Sparta.. no kidding.. And Athens brought the western civilization so much. I depends on what you find important, do you like to have other people think for you and die training and have your entire life based on warfare (Sparta) or do you put interest in democracy, philisophy, etc? I would say Athens has meant a lot for development in general and I admire ancient Athens so I would go with them.. But the question "Who was better" can't really be answered. What is better?

[thebigsalad]

Athens.

Well every modern person would die living in Sparta.. no kidding..

and I don't believe this... not even for an instant.

[ROFL Copter]

No modern person in the world (well, ya never know about those Navy people) could ever live in Sparta. It is all good to idolize them and their way of life, but to see it up close and be part of it would be horrible for any exept the strongest and most cruel in the world. Even Athens, father of the West, has its barbaric moments. To live in one, Athens is doubtless the better choise. And it would be really neat too.
But in war Sparta is the better, at least for a time.
Athens is richer.
Sparta is more loyal.
Athens has a better navy.
Sparta is a working communist.
Athens is a democracy.
Sparta inspires fear.
Athens inspires awe.
The list is endless. Athens is the better city, but Sparta is fantical and idealist.

[Phalanx300]

No modern person in the world (well, ya never know about those Navy people) could ever live in Sparta. It is all good to idolize them and their way of life, but to see it up close and be part of it would be horrible for any exept the strongest and most cruel in the world. Even Athens, father of the West, has its barbaric moments. To live in one, Athens is doubtless the better choise. And it would be really neat too.
But in war Sparta is the better, at least for a time.
Athens is richer.
Sparta is more loyal.
Athens has a better navy.
Sparta is a working communist.
Athens is a democracy.
Sparta inspires fear.
Athens inspires awe.
The list is endless. Athens is the better city, but Sparta is fantical and idealist.

They certainly weren't communist, there were richer and poorer citizens and all of them shared the same profession.

Sparta is also partly a democracy, for the Spartan citizens that is.

Sparta inspires awe as well, just them marching at you would make you cower in fear (awe and fear tend to go combined).

And Athens better? That would depend, as a Periokoi you could have a good life, as a Helot you would have a crappy live (most of the time) and as a Spartan you would have a hard life.

[ROFL Copter]

Sparta was very fascist, and everyone was a soldier. They were forcably taken from their famillies at 7 and trained in a brutal manner until adulthood and then spent thier short lives fighting for the state. Maybe thats not quite communist but it is certainly not democracy, I have no idea where you come up with that.

And I ment Athens inspired a different form of awe, in huge buildings and state projects. Really I would not want to live in Sparta.

[Phalanx300]

Sparta was very fascist, and everyone was a soldier. They were forcably taken from their famillies at 7 and trained in a brutal manner until adulthood and then spent thier short lives fighting for the state.

Short lives? They would have to serve from the age of 20 till the age of 60 and there are even records of older Spartans fighting! Leonidas himself must also have been in his 50s at Thermopylae.

Maybe thats not quite communist but it is certainly not democracy, I have no idea where you come up with that.

Search for the Spartan Constitution, there was the Apella which included all Spartan citizens and they got to decide certain things by vote! Sparta was a mix of many different types of ruling.

[torzsoktamas]

For me Sparta wins,but just with a little bit.

Athen had a good army too,after all a hoplitic army was strong, but he is far away weaker than Sparta's army.It is known that Athen was strong on the sea with his navy,but in the Peleoponesian war Sparta defeated Athen on sea too.Sparta lost his hegemony because of Epaminodas, who won a battle(leuctra)and defeated the spartans(because he was a good general).But the macedonians than defeated all of greace.Sparta remained independent,but was weak in this time because some revoults and a massive earthquake.Another point is that by 225-218BC Athen was nowhere....Sparta in the other hand succeded to rise again(with III Cleomenes).Unfotunatelly he lost and in 218BC he was murdered in Egypt.After this time many Spartans left their home(not sure but I read that some of them entered the roman army and helped rome to defeat Macedon).

SO my vote is Sparta,but just because of his military.I also admire and like Athen too,...because of their monuments and beautiful city.--Still my vote is Sparta.

[Jarlaxe]

at their times there is no comparisson but Athens was more opened to foreigner cultures,thats why it lasted longer
and growed in assets of culture.
sparta was a very closed society and accepetd nothing from outsiders.
athens was the Queen of the seas and sparta had a leathal infantry,for me,no comparison
each of the two was very strong

[Honge]

Neither Athens nor Sparta is better than the other. They were very different places. The question is not which is better, but why where they so different? Both Athens and Sparta were unusual for Greek poleis. Both had taken very radical (and often opposing) approaches to maintaining a stable nation - which were the results of the abnormal natures and developments of both states.

They were both the largest poleis in Greece; Sparta being the largest, Athens the second. As a result of this they both had extremely large populations. During the Archaic Period (700-480BC), Athens established colonies across the Mediterranean; Sparta invaded Messenia and subjugated the population to the status of helotes. It was around this time that both took radical approaches to government. Athens, under the guidance of Solon established some reforms which would spur on the developments of democracy (much) later - for example the institution of the Heliaia. Sparta began the reforms which resulted in the agoge and subsequent tripartite society, which is generally accredited to Lykurgos - these reforms probably being the brought into effect to prevent a tyrannos from taking power, and prevent the helotes from rebelling.

Athens did have more money (as a result from trade), was more flamboyant; Sparta didn't have these, not because it did not want to, but because it was illegal and against Spartan austerity - the money that Sparta did have was in the form of large meter long iron spits (not the most handy change!). Whereas in the rest of Greece, you showed off your wealth, it was a very different case in Sparta. They both had their pluses and minuses, but they were polar opposites. Both of them were great, and when they did work together they could bring down empires. But due to the nature of how they dealt with life and politics they were destined to fight - in the end they just weakened each other so much that once the war was over they'd be too fatigued to hold onto the victory, and that it left a power vacuum in Greece.

It all comes down to what inspires you, what your personal preference is - a Spartan empire of the Body, or an Athenian empire of the Mind. So in the end, it's all about what the individual fantasizes about.

[Andalus]

I think Templar Hospitaller nailed it in the second post.

[Phalanx300]

Cleomenes III wasn't killed, he killed himself after a failing to start a revolution against the Ptolemies. Earthquake and revolts were at ealier times, not after Macedonian hegemony.

Spartans stayed in Sparta I believe, they just didn´t fully obey the laws of Lycurgos anymore. They only fled to Mori in the middle ages after invasions, which is why people from Mori claim to be descendants of the Spartans. Would be great if it could be prooven.

[torzsoktamas]

Cleomenes III wasn't killed, he killed himself after a failing to start a revolution against the Ptolemies. Earthquake and revolts were at ealier times, not after Macedonian hegemony.

Spartans stayed in Sparta I believe, they just didn´t fully obey the laws of Lycurgos anymore. They only fled to Mori in the middle ages after invasions, which is why people from Mori claim to be descendants of the Spartans. Would be great if it could be prooven.

Whanks for the corrections!It was a long time when I read about Sparta so I wasn't sure about somethings,because I forgot them.Sparta>Athen