Vatican Secrets

[PointOfViewGun]

I was taking a look at the Gospel of Judas article on wiki and there was a quote from a man that claimed that Vatican probably have a copy of the Gospel. This made me think about how many more books or secrets do the Vatican hold from the public.

Do any of you think there are any?
Or do any of you Christian even want to know?

(The second option was meant to be Yes instead of No. Sorry if a Mod can fix it, it would be nice.)

[RazorOutlaw]

Even as someone who doesn't believe I would want to know what else the Vatican has in its possession but that's assuming they have anything to hide (or actually have "secrets"). Wiki isn't always the best source of information though. Who was this man? What did he say? Inquiring minds should know.

[Pious Agnost]

Sounds like something from a Dan Brown novel.

Speaking of Dan Brown.


What are you on about?

[PointOfViewGun]

Even as someone who doesn't believe I would want to know what else the Vatican has in its possession but that's assuming they have anything to hide (or actually have "secrets"). Wiki isn't always the best source of information though. Who was this man? What did he say? Inquiring minds should know.

He's the president of the Maecenas Foundation, Mario Roberty.
I'm not really basing my question on the wiki article, don't get me wrong. In the past church did banned collected and burned certain works. It's highly likely that while banning they might wanna hold on to at least one copy.

[Pious Agnost]

I get it now, voted the first option, for a lack of something more moderate.

They might be, they probably are, but I'm not willing to bet on it

[PointOfViewGun]

I get it now, voted the first option, for a lack of something more moderate.

They might be, they probably are, but I'm not willing to bet on it

Well there isn't really something more moderate. It's not like they're hiding only one secret. There probably bits and pieces here and there.

[Pious Agnost]

A moderate option would be that you believe they have covered up a few inconvenient things, but it isn't exactly Area 51

[Stavroforos]

I don't think it has "secrets," but simply stuff that isn't known to the public until some Grad student trying to write an original paper stumbles upon it.

I do believe there are political coverups and the like though.

[PointOfViewGun]

I don't think it has "secrets," but simply stuff that isn't known to the public until some Grad student trying to write an original paper stumbles upon it.

I do believe there are political coverups and the like though.

Could you say that any Christian historian would be able to access any material the Vatican has? Every single bit of it.

[Stavroforos]

Could you say that any Christian historian would be able to access any material the Vatican has? Every single bit of it.

Probably, unless the documents are lost or are protected.

It's a mess in the Secret Library, from what I've heard.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Could you say that any Christian historian would be able to access any material the Vatican has? Every single bit of it.

Since all a scholar needs to do to access the Vatican Archives is apply for access with a letter of introduction and a relevant research project, yes. It's not like it's a locked dungeon with dripping walls and flickering torches guarded by a crack troop of albino dwarfs. Though the way some idiots dribble on about the secrets they somehow "know" are locked up there, you'd think it was. I always ask those idiots how, if it's all so secret, they "know" these secrets are there. They can never answer.

The main obstacle to research in the Archives is the fact that only a fraction of it has ever been catalogued. So even "the Vatican" doesn't know exactly what's in there. Before anyone gets too excited about the prospect of finding the menu for the Last Supper and Jesus and Mary Magdalene's wedding certificate in there, it contains documents from around the time after the Papacy moved back to Rome from Avignon in the later Fourteenth Century and there is barely anything in the Archive earlier than that date. For a long time just about any document, archived writing or deposition was simply stuck in the Archive, with only the more important pieces being catalogued or listed in any way. The process of cataloguing it all has proceeded in fits and starts over the years, but there's still plenty of material in there of the later Medieval, Renaissance and Modern Church for historians to find.

Again, unfortunately for conpiracy hounds, most of the documents are pretty boring - letters, diplomatic correspondence, financial accounts etc. What tends to get the conspiracy freaks all excited is the name of the place: "The Secret Vatican Archive". They get excited because in English the word "secret" means "hidden, concealed", with implications of cloak and dagger shennanigans. Unfortunately the Latin word that gives the Archives their name actually means "secure, safe". Like any such archive or library, its there to protect and preserve the materials in it. So "Secret" doesn't mean what many people think it means.

[PointOfViewGun]

Since all a scholar needs to do to access the Vatican Archives is apply for access with a letter of introduction and a relevant research project, yes. It's not like it's a locked dungeon with dripping walls and flickering torches guarded by a crack troop of albino dwarfs. Though the way some idiots dribble on about the secrets they somehow "know" are locked up there, you'd think it was. I always ask those idiots how, if it's all so secret, they "know" these secrets are there. They can never answer.

The main obstacle to research in the Archives is the fact that only a fraction of it has ever been catalogued. So even "the Vatican" doesn't know exactly what's in there. Before anyone gets too excited about the prospect of finding the menu for the Last Supper and Jesus and Mary Magdalene's wedding certificate in there, it contains documents from around the time after the Papacy moved back to Rome from Avignon in the later Fourteenth Century and there is barely anything in the Archive earlier than that date. For a long time just about any document, archived writing or deposition was simply stuck in the Archive, with only the more important pieces being catalogued or listed in any way. The process of cataloguing it all has proceeded in fits and starts over the years, but there's still plenty of material in there of the later Medieval, Renaissance and Modern Church for historians to find.

Again, unfortunately for conpiracy hounds, most of the documents are pretty boring - letters, diplomatic correspondence, financial accounts etc. What tends to get the conspiracy freaks all excited is the name of the place: "The Secret Vatican Archive". They get excited because in English the word "secret" means "hidden, concealed", with implications of cloak and dagger shennanigans. Unfortunately the Latin word that gives the Archives their name actually means "secure, safe". Like any such archive or library, its there to protect and preserve the materials in it. So "Secret" doesn't mean what many people think it means.

Well I don't think that way, I believe the Vatican library is probably one of the best preserved ancient libraries in the world.

Yet one can always wonder if they're completely honest with the public about certain issues like the Gospel of Judas issue.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Well I don't think that way,

You don't "feel" that way? And what are your "feelings" based on? Evidence would be nice.

I believe the Vatican library is probably one of the best preserved ancient libraries in the world.

Then you believe wrongly. As I said, the material in the Archives date from the return to Rome from Avignon in 1377. Very little of whatever had been archived by the Papacy before the move to Avignon survived, so what we have in the Archive today dates from 1377 onward. This means that there is very little ancient material in it at all and what there is was deposited in it after 1377.

These are facts. So unless you have some evidence to base your belief that it's actually a vast library of ancient texts on what you "believe" has no value.

Yet one can always wonder if they're completely honest with the public about certain issues like the Gospel of Judas issue.

Yes, and you can wonder if the US government is hiding the Ark of the Covenant in a crate in a vast warehouse somewhere as well. You can wonder about all kinds of things - it's rather fun. But if you want to claim that what you "believe" should be taken seriously you need evidence.

[Fibur]

Without taking a conspiracy theorist stance, I tend to believe that the Vatican has, as any other State, some archives that are not discolsed to the public.
It's a common practice, particularly concerning diplomatic documents (I think you can access them after 50 years or more).

[Bovril]

I've no doubt the Vatican library has dozens of copies of the Gospel of Judas. In modern compilations and commentaries on of Gnostic litterature.

[VALIS]

I bet there is a whole ark load of paedophile cases and incidents being covered up.

[Fiyenyaa]

In all seriousness, they're probably hiding things, but I'm sure it's nothing of too much importance.

[Homeros]

In all seriousness, they're probably hiding things, but I'm sure it's nothing of too much importance.

Why hide something that isn't important anyway?

There're two options:

The Vatican plays mystical, they have nothing but want people to think they have, or they do have information they like to keep from the public for whatever reason. The latter seems unlikely because it doesn't make sense to store information that contradicts with the official thesis.

[The Noble Lord]

This thread is going very nicely into the conspiracy theory realm.
And who knows whats in the Vatican archives, it's not even that important any more.
I doubt that it was ever really that important, whatever Vatican has down there and I doubt that it is anything of "Dan Brown" importance then it's useless to guess or to make it into
something "earth-shattering". In the past 700-1000 years Vatican was really not capable of
predicting anything important or trying to stop or prevent any of the calamities that came and went.
They even collaborated with the Nazis in many ways, and to take credit for the demise of Communism
is childish and not really the truth of what happened!

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

They even collaborated with the Nazis in many ways,

If they "collaborated" with the Nazis, why was the Vatican consistently criticised by the Nazi press and why did Hitler even come up with a plan to kidnap the Pope as a way of silencing his criticism of the Nazi regime? Why was the Papacy praised by leading Jews after the War for resisting the Nazis and helping to save thousands of Jews?:

"The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world."
(Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, message of thanks to the Pope, February 28, 1944)

"It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews. . . . The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance."
(Rabbi Safran of Bucharest, Romania, April 7, 1944)

"What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts. . . . Priests and even high prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism."
(Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli)

"We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII. . . . During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people passed through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims"
(Golda Meir, Israeli representative to the U.N. and future prime minister of Israel)

"With special gratitude we remember all he has done for the persecuted Jews during one of the darkest periods in their entire history”
(Nahum Goldmann, president of the World Jewish Congress)

"More than anyone else, we have had the opportunity to appreciate the great kindness, filled with compassion and magnanimity, that the Pope displayed during the terrible years of persecution and terror" (Elio Toaff, Chief Rabbi of Rome, following Rabbi Zolli’s conversion)

"Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty."
(Albert Einstein)

These eminent Jews didn't seem to notice the Vatican "collaborating with the Nazis". Some people need to check some virulent anti-Catholic myths against the facts.