A question about eastern roman army units

[eliza08]

hello! i'm new around here and let me say i enjoy this mod very much! Now for my question, i read somewhere that the byzantine empire had a unit of heavy cavalry called "the immortals". i was wondering which of the units presented in the mod closely resembles the elite heavy cavalry in question.

my many many thanks in advance.

[Bull]

That would be the Athanatoi (greek for Immortals), which is represented in CBUR (Complete Byzantine Unit Roster) by the general's units.
In BC it is simply the ERE bodyguards. If you are playing as the Turkish Sultanate, you will painfully discover why they are called the "immortals".

[eliza08]

That would be the Athanatoi (greek for Immortals), which is represented in CBUR (Complete Byzantine Unit Roster) by the general's units.
In BC it is simply the ERE bodyguards. If you are playing as the Turkish Sultanate, you will painfully discover why they are called the "immortals".

So it's the Romanoi unit in bc! Thank you^

I'll give the Sultanate a try!

[Bull]

So it's the Romanoi unit in bc! Thank you^

I'll give the Sultanate a try!

Good luck with that!!

One general's unit will probably tear through half a stack...and arrows don't hurt them.

[eliza08]

more questions, this time about cataphracts:

1) are the "immortals" and "pronoi" units considered cataphracts?
2) where the cataphracts still available during the time Constantinople fell?
3) what unit/s in bc where still available to the eastern roman empire prior to her fall?

sorry, if i have a lot of questions.

[AnthoniusII]

more questions, this time about cataphracts:

1) are the "immortals" and "pronoi" units considered cataphracts?
2) where the cataphracts still available during the time Constantinople fell?
3) what unit/s in bc where still available to the eastern roman empire prior to her fall?

sorry, if i have a lot of questions.

1: Athanatoi (immortals) were cataphract style unit but they did not exist in that form after 1071!
Pronoiarii (pronoiars) were closest to western knights rather than cataphracts!
2: Units in cataphract/clibanarii form did not exist after 1204 (in 1203 only 500 of them still existed and they retreated infront of 80 knights)!!!!
3: Pronoiars existed until 1430!We could say that some scutatoi still existed but none of the rest units existed to the last years of the Empire's life...Units like Tzakones is out of the BC map frame to be reqruited!
But...the cause of the non existance was not that those units were unworthy...Emperors were the primary cause of dispanding capable units because they were afraid that those units would take some other's side against them!!!!!!!!!
Civil wars,extended raids,constant invasions redused the financial wealth of the Empire...with the previus cause i mentioned it was a miracle that the Empire survived 250 years more...

[eliza08]

1: Athanatoi (immortals) were cataphract style unit but they did not exist in that form after 1071!
Pronoiarii (pronoiars) were closest to western knights rather than cataphracts!
2: Units in cataphract/clibanarii form did not exist after 1204 (in 1203 only 500 of them still existed and they retreated infront of 80 knights)!!!!
3: Pronoiars existed until 1430!We could say that some scutatoi still existed but none of the rest units existed to the last years of the Empire's life...Units like Tzakones is out of the BC map frame to be reqruited!
But...the cause of the non existance was not that those units were unworthy...Emperors were the primary cause of dispanding capable units because they were afraid that those units would take some other's side against them!!!!!!!!!
Civil wars,extended raids,constant invasions redused the financial wealth of the Empire...with the previus cause i mentioned it was a miracle that the Empire survived 250 years more...

Sir, which battle or campaign was that? Also, did the cataphracts really use javelins prior to actual contact with the enemy? The way they are depicted in bc.

Thank you very much for your valuable insights.

[AnthoniusII]

Sir, which battle or campaign was that? Also, did the cataphracts really use javelins prior to actual contact with the enemy? The way they are depicted in bc.

Thank you very much for your valuable insights.

Τhe batlle that the cataphracts(Scholarii/Ikanati)retreated before 80 knights was an incidence of the "siege" of Constantinople in 1203!
The retreated because their leader was a coward!!!
If we compare the armor or the weapons both sides had we will see that the "cataphracts" had 3 times more heavy armor,longer lances and a combination of long swords(longer than the western ones/Spathas)and maces!!!
Knights had almost exclusevly heavy/long chain mails,lances and long swords/axes!!!
But a unit without morale retreats with no reason at all!!!

As for the javelings...That depands in what era a unit roster focuses!
Things we should know:
1: All units in medeival Roman Empire(Byzantium)had two parts..
The offencive(Koursores)and the defencive(defensores)...
Ussually the offencive part of the unit had steppe(composite)bows but in some cases we have found writen reports for heavy units(mostly of 9th century)that used light javelings(the same time the infantry used heavy javelings (menaulion/martiubarbulus)...
The defencive(counter attack) part was the one that used lances...
All of the "cataphract"style warriors had a lot of weapons to use...
We read in "Taktika" of Emperor Leon VI The wise...
"And you must equipe your heavy cavalrymen with ravdia or corines that are made from wood and metal (ravdion/corine means club/mace),spathia and tzikourion (roman axe,modification of the old frankish axe the franjeska)..."
We can see in the text that a cavalry man had 3 close combat weapons!!!

If you need more info please visit our historical info thread in CBUR...
Relative historical info (it's about to update soon)

Guide of tactics of medeival Roman Armies.

[eliza08]

Τhe batlle that the cataphracts(Scholarii/Ikanati)retreated before 80 knights was an incidence of the "siege" of Constantinople in 1203!
The retreated because their leader was a coward!!!
If we compare the armor or the weapons both sides had we will see that the "cataphracts" had 3 times more heavy armor,longer lances and a combination of long swords(longer than the western ones/Spathas)and maces!!!
Knights had almost exclusevly heavy/long chain mails,lances and long swords/axes!!!
But a unit without morale retreats with no reason at all!!!

As for the javelings...That depands in what era a unit roster focuses!
Things we should know:
1: All units in medeival Roman Empire(Byzantium)had two parts..
The offencive(Koursores)and the defencive(defensores)...
Ussually the offencive part of the unit had steppe(composite)bows but in some cases we have found writen reports for heavy units(mostly of 9th century)that used light javelings(the same time the infantry used heavy javelings (menaulion/martiubarbulus)...
The defencive(counter attack) part was the one that used lances...
All of the "cataphract"style warriors had a lot of weapons to use...
We read in "Taktika" of Emperor Leon VI The wise...
"And you must equipe your heavy cavalrymen with ravdia or corines that are made from wood and metal (ravdion/corine means club/mace),spathia and tzikourion (roman axe,modification of the old frankish axe the franjeska)..."
We can see in the text that a cavalry man had 3 close combat weapons!!!

If you need more info please visit our historical info thread in CBUR...
Relative historical info (it's about to update soon)

Guide of tactics of medeival Roman Armies.

Thank you so much sir, and will read the link you have provided.

[frontier-auxilia]

Τhe batlle that the cataphracts(Scholarii/Ikanati)retreated before 80 knights was an incidence of the "siege" of Constantinople in 1203!
The retreated because their leader was a coward!!!
If we compare the armor or the weapons both sides had we will see that the "cataphracts" had 3 times more heavy armor,longer lances and a combination of long swords(longer than the western ones/Spathas)and maces!!!
Knights had almost exclusevly heavy/long chain mails,lances and long swords/axes!!!
But a unit without morale retreats with no reason at all!!!

.

The dimwitted emperor probably ordered a retreati. Theres no shame in it, those guys haz discipline

[Takverely]

simply the ERE bodyguard (16men) isnt a problem but when you have to face faction heir's or king's bodyguard (about 40 men)... victory is almost impossible..

[eliza08]

simply the ERE bodyguard (16men) isnt a problem but when you have to face faction heir's or king's bodyguard (about 40 men)... victory is almost impossible..

Thank you for the information

Where did the creators of the mod, base the "look" for their ERE units? Any pictures around the net I can check? Oh, and again they really look cool^

[Strelac]

Thank you for the information

Where did the creators of the mod, base the "look" for their ERE units? Any pictures around the net I can check? Oh, and again they really look cool^

Most of units appearance was derived from publishings such as Osprey, nevertheless, I aimed to add unique characteristics to each unit to differentiate the BC units from similar in other mods.

[eliza08]

Most of units appearance was derived from publishings such as Osprey, nevertheless, I aimed to add unique characteristics to each unit to differentiate the BC units from similar in other mods.

Thank you for the reply sir.

Would you change or add any of the units currently available in the future? I really love your work especially the Eastern Roman Army faction.

[AnthoniusII]

The BC ERE unit Roster(we in CBUR we call Medeival Roman)is not unhistorical!
It just refairs (most of it)in an other era...
BC unit roster could easily be a basis of the Byz Armies of 10th-11th centuries the one we in CBUR call "Nikephorean"!
You can see some simularities:
In the Komnenean Unit Roster of ours (Armies after 1080ad)there are no "pikemen"...
But in the Nikephorean one Kontaratoi are the "regular" infantry unit of the "provincial" units:
CBUR's Kontaratoi!


BC's ones!

[Ma'ahes]

simply the ERE bodyguard (16men) isnt a problem but when you have to face faction heir's or king's bodyguard (about 40 men)... victory is almost impossible..

Indeed. I had a 1300+ Abbasid levy army decide to attack my lone general. I lost two guys, they lost their entire army. Charge ftw!

[Strelac]

The "final years" or 'late period' are relative terms and describe the status of the empire as known to us today. In BC, we dint try to mimic the history as it had happen. Instead, it was important for us to capture the basis as they have historically exist at the time of beginning of the mod.
When player starts the campaign he/she is in what we refer to year 0. From that point on, he shapes the history any way he desires, and as such, I felt important to keep the early ERE units appearance as core, while some minor deviation apparent is some western looking unit, would be result of cultural interchange but not what we consider today past historical events.

[eliza08]

The "final years" or 'late period' are relative terms and describe the status of the empire as known to us today. In BC, we dint try to mimic the history as it had happen. Instead, it was important for us to capture the basis as they have historically exist at the time of beginning of the mod.
When player starts the campaign he/she is in what we refer to year 0. From that point on, he shapes the history any way he desires, and as such, I felt important to keep the early ERE units appearance as core, while some minor deviation apparent is some western looking unit, would be result of cultural interchange but not what we consider today past historical events.

I understand sir^

Both BC and CBUR units look very good, similar yet different. Certain BC ERE units have that "Asiatic" feel to them while some CBUR units have a more "Western" flair. A good example would be the comparison between the BC ERE Immortal and the CBUR Immortal, the BC version in my opinion has a "moorish" look, while the CBUR has a very "knightly" appearance. Very subjective observations that may differ from someone else's opinion.

The passion behind the projects (BC and CBUR) is clearly reflected in such astounding works.

[AnthoniusII]

I understand sir^

Both BC and CBUR units look very good, similar yet different. Certain BC ERE units have that "Asiatic" feel to them while some CBUR units have a more "Western" flair. A good example would be the comparison between the BC ERE Immortal and the CBUR Immortal, the BC version in my opinion has a "moorish" look, while the CBUR has a very "knightly" appearance. Very subjective observations that may differ from someone else's opinion.

The passion behind the projects (BC and CBUR) is clearly reflected in such astounding works.

My friend eliza the diferences you see in some specific units (general's bodygaurds) are relative to the evolution the Roman units had through time!
After 700ad Romans(you may call them byzantine but this is not the issue here) were influenced by the steppe warriors they came across in batllefields(helmets,lamellar quirasses,new horse equipments and later kite shields long before Normans even exist)!!!
I repeat the BC unit roster is more based in the Nikephorean armies rather than Komnenean or Palaiologian...That is not a big deal becuase the result is exelent and they had to take care to a lot of other issues as well!
Komnenus dynasty were west europe fans and they "imported" some western style equipment (mostly helmets) and they developted more their "native"equipment!
That is why our Athanatoi and BC's bgaurds look diferent...
If you would like to see some late Palaiologean units just immagine them with the helmets of our Athanatoi but with western partial plate armors,balcan square shields,turkish sabres etc!!!!

[eliza08]

My friend eliza the diferences you see in some specific units (general's bodygaurds) are relative to the evolution the Roman units had through time!
After 700ad Romans(you may call them byzantine but this is not the issue here) were influenced by the steppe warriors they came across in batllefields(helmets,lamellar quirasses,new horse equipments and later kite shields long before Normans even exist)!!!
I repeat the BC unit roster is more based in the Nikephorean armies rather than Komnenean or Palaiologian...That is not a big deal becuase the result is exelent and they had to take care to a lot of other issues as well!
Komnenus dynasty were west europe fans and they "imported" some western style equipment (mostly helmets) and they developted more their "native"equipment!
That is why our Athanatoi and BC's bgaurds look diferent...
If you would like to see some late Palaiologean units just immagine them with the helmets of our Athanatoi but with western partial plate armors,balcan square shields,turkish sabres etc!!!!

Your insights are really well thought off and informative=)

@Underlined

Will you undertake a mod for the late Palaiologean army? Please