Did the Ottoman massacres and forced deportations of Greeks from 1914-1923 constitute Genocide?

[Nikos]

According to the IAGS (international association of Genocide scholars) it did.
http://www.greek-genocide.org/iags_resolution.html
Tens of Thousands of Greeks were killed by the Ottoman and Young Turk governments. I believe it did, the Ottoman Empire and Young Turks specifically targeted the Greeks and other minorities in the Empire to make Turkey pure, effectively ending over 3,000 years of Greek civilization in Asia Minor. So, was it a Genocide?

[PointOfViewGun]

Oh no...

Can't we focus on one genocide claim at a time?

[Nikos]

Oh no...

Come on, I will have no nationalist diatribes in this thread, they will be promptly reported as off topic. This thread is for responsible discussion and debate.

[Bovril]

Genocide is usually described as the attempt to eliminate (by which I mean kill) a whole ethnic group. I think the term ethnic cleansing would be less controversial.

[PointOfViewGun]

Genocide is usually described as the attempt to eliminate (by which I mean kill) a whole ethnic group. I think the term ethnic cleansing would be less controversial.

Unfortunately, people usually see "ethnic cleansing" as massacres too. There have been a serious of ethnic cleansing between Turkey and Greece in means of population swap if that's what you mean.

[Bovril]

Unfortunately, people usually see "ethnic cleansing" as massacres too. There have been a serious of ethnic cleansing between Turkey and Greece in means of population swap if that's what you mean.

That is essentially what I mean. I'm not sure there was a systematic policy of killing Greeks, so probably Genocide is a bit strong. But expulsion and unsystematic killing did take place and that is ethnic cleansing in my book.

But we are playing a semantic game here, and a more detailed account of what took place might obviate the need to use broad terms such as ethnic cleansing and genocide.

[PointOfViewGun]

That is essentially what I mean. I'm not sure there was a systematic policy of killing Greeks, so probably Genocide is a bit strong. But expulsion and unsystematic killing did take place and that is ethnic cleansing in my book.

But we are playing a semantic game here, and a more detailed account of what took place might obviate the need to use broad terms such as ethnic cleansing and genocide.

Precisely. Using the term "genocide" which has a very specific meaning with a very heavy and emotional background should only be used with precise knowledge and facts.

[neoptolemos]

Precisely. Using the term "genocide" which has a very specific meaning with a very heavy and emotional background should only be used with precise knowledge and facts.

The Ottomans had behaved to the Pontic Greeks with cruelty from the first time they conquered Pontus.
At first was the forced islamification of the Pontic population and oppression.

Still though after years of Ottoman rule the things were stable,but the acts of the Ottoman rulers of 1914-1923,massacres and deportations-many Pontic were killed,died on the go,left their homes and wealth back and the lucky ones fled to Russia-Georgia (where the were also deported by the Stalinic regime to the Siberia-Eastern Soviet states)

[Nikos]

That is essentially what I mean. I'm not sure there was a systematic policy of killing Greeks, so probably Genocide is a bit strong. But expulsion and unsystematic killing did take place and that is ethnic cleansing in my book.

But we are playing a semantic game here, and a more detailed account of what took place might obviate the need to use broad terms such as ethnic cleansing and genocide.

http://www.aihgs.com/pontus.htm
From the Australian institute of Holocaust and Genocide studies, has all of the information you could want.

[Bovril]

http://www.aihgs.com/pontus.htm
From the Australian institute of Holocaust and Genocide studies, has all of the information you could want.

Thanks for the link. Unfortuneately there is little discussion of sources. There are quotes from several diplomatic staff from the Central Powers, but their reliability is not discussed. There are long lists of contemporary Newspaper articles, but again reliability and even content is nnot discussed. I'm not saying its unreliable, just that it could be fuller.

[Gromovnik]

It was a genocide. One needs only to read the definition of genocide to realise it.

[awalanche]

It was a genocide. One needs only to read the definition of genocide to realise it.

I think the one who should read the definition of genocide is you

I think the first step of genocide is to organize something from central power.
Before the mentioned years Ottoman army has suffered heavily from two consecutive Balkan Wars.

And during this period there was the Galippoli war where app. 250.000 men died only on this battle

During this time period app 100.000 soldier which was nearly all the Eastern Army fighting against Russians were frozen at AllahuEkber Mountains

During this time period Ottoman army is fighting against British at Iraq

During this time period Ottoman army attacked Suez Canal with 40.000 soldiers twice.

You see that Ottoman army and all men were fighting at many fronts and could not launch such a campaign. We were trying some ourselves.

1918-1924 period was the independence movement of Turkish people against the treaty of Mondros and Serves. Population was drastically decreased and according to treaty of Mondros Ottoman army disbanded and all weapons and logistic issues were controlled by Allied forces.

There were just local resistance movements against occupiers. They were also local resistance against Greeks guerrillas at Black Sea region and there were causalities at both sides. Resistance against protection lands at Black Sea region.

You should understand Ottomans and other resistance groups could not organize such a campaign because we were fighting for our rights and lands.

I think second issue again related to central authority was an official will of that campaign. Look at Nazi German. Jewish genocide (holocaust) was the official aim of central authority. Could you show me such an Ottoman official order aiming genocide of Pontic Greeks or other Greeks in Anatolia.

You should not forget that while the occupation of Greek army at Aegean region and inner Anatolia, they killed many Turkish civilians and burned many villages. You can not deny this fact however this was not genocide because as far as I know there was no official order from Greek government. Also some Turks could live in İzmir but in fear and disappointment.

Something personal my grandfather's father used to be a resistance fighter (Kuvai-Milliye) against Greek army and wounded. We have his courage medal in our house

[Gromovnik]

I think the one who should read the definition of genocide is you

O.K. so I guess you've read the definition of genocide as defined by UN? Yes or no?

[awalanche]

O.K. so I guess you've read the definition of genocide as defined by UN? Yes or no?

Yes I read. Look at stage 4 of genocide organization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

I really do not like Wiki but I think they just copy paste the table

[Gromovnik]

Yes I read. Look at stage 4 of genocide organization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

I really do not like Wiki but I think they just copy paste the table

So, did you read it all?

[white-wolf]

When I was visiting Hagia-Sofia (church-mosque-museum) at Istanbul last year, I step on foot of a Croatian Christian.

I Apoligize for the suffering the Croation Christians had to bear. I am sorry for the Croatian Genocide.

We will immediatly declare that the muslim Turks are the scum of the world and genodical maniacs. We will beat themselves 100 times with whips. We will give Edirne province to Croatians because there were 10 Croatians at there before my stepping. We will give them 10 times of Turkey's annual budget. We will kick themselves and be slave to Croats.

/ Joke off

LOL, Get real people.

Note : Croats, please do not get offended.

[Gromovnik]

Yeah, genocide is so funny...

[Ahlerich]

does is really matter if a terrible act deserves the label genocide? if yes i suggest employing a jewish lawyer in this matter

[awalanche]

does is really matter if a terrible act deserves the label genocide? if yes i suggest employing a jewish lawyer in this matter

Yes it really matters. You should be serious and think carefully because genocide is the most inhumane act.

Yes there were massacres and horrible events but they were not genocide. Could you consider the acts of Greek army during occupation of Anatolia against Turks as a genocide. Many Turks were killed at that time period.

Look at my previous post it is no and the reasons are also in thread

[sephodwyrm]

Wasn't the whole of Greece part of the Ottoman Empire before her bloody independence war somewhere in the 19th century?

I've heard that there's no mosques in Greece because they managed to kill all Muslims in their country. How true is this claim? If it was, then I would call this reciprocal murder (aka feud).