Temporary Battle&Campaign Balance Project -Beta 0.6out

[saulot333]

This project's aim is to give player a reasonable alternative to the current battle and campaign balance system. Currently, an all-stars team of modders (Darth Vader, KK, PointBlank and Mithrandir) is working hard to create a perfect battle system: in the meantime, you could enjoy the results of my little pet project

WHAT IS DONE: Attack and Defence Stats
Mental Stats and Traits
Recruiting Prices
Upkeep Prices
Units attributes
Recruiting times
Archers ranges and accuracy rate
Unit pools
Building access and effects
Culture conversion buildings
Conversion recruitment requirements
Units speed
Preliminary descr_stat work

NOW WORKING ON: Playtesting

TO INSTALL: download the archive, extract it, then copy the folder "Data" inside your ThirdAge mod folder.

CONTENT DESCRIPTION:
This mod offers you a complete reworking of the stats of all units, rebels included. The main accomplishments of the mod are:
- balancing races according to Tolkien lore: elves, dwarves and elite Numenoreans units are now truly superior to other races forces;
- nerfing archery to acceptable levels: accuracy and penetration power reduced for all units. Now melee troops have a chance;
- trolls modificated: their stats have been reduced, but their mass and stamina have been increased. They are now very effective against light troops, while disciplined heavy lines could repel them;
- recruitment system reworked: the Good guys can field powerful units but Quantity has a Quality of its own. Evil players will get the numerical superiority they enjoy so much;
- conversion buildings have been modified in order to give each culture specific bonuses: Elves and Dwarves will have problems trying to regain terrain on Men, while Orcs will be able to convert occupied enemy regions to their evil ways soon enough.

And much more...

This is a work in progress: so onward all and contribute!

[trance]

I've been doing a similar thing, only been working on Gondor however (since it's the faction I'm playing currently, must admit I was disappointed with the Fountain Guard unit not even having 2 hps) Was thinking of doing the exact same thing as you've done else haha.

[pwf224]

This looks great. You're about 100% on track with what I was thinking. What I also want to see is weaker, but larger units for orc-types, while increasing the stats and decreasing unit sizes of good units. Don't worry about implementing that part though, I know this is only a temporary fix, not a full overhaul.

Good luck with this, I can't wait until you release your EDU

[Hambone]

I wouldnt say that everyone or even a majority believe that the game is unbalanced, I personally havent had any problems

[Candelarius]

I wouldnt say that everyone or even a majority believe that the game is unbalanced, I personally havent had any problems

Do a custom battle, one troll vs 20 Gondoran archers. It'll take half, if not all, of your arrows to kill one unit of trolls. This would be fine if the trolls cost about six times their value, but, as it is, trolls are incredibly, rediculously overpowered...I can't imagine how anyone could argue against this point.

[saulot333]

I am actually happy to hear that there are a lot of satisfied people out there. The developer team deserves all the praise it can get for this gem, I just hope to help the minority who feels the EDU could use a little extra care.
Now, I have decided to start a complete overhaul of the stats, based on the "race" system. Here it is the general guidelines I am using, tell me what you think:

Melee Attack

Snaga 1
Goblins 2
Orcs 3
M. Humans/ Uruk Hai 4
Numenoreans/ Dwarves 5
Elves 6
Eldars 7


Missile Attack

Snaga 2
Goblins/Orcs 3
M. Humans/ Uruk Hai 4
Numenoreans/ Dwarves 5
Elves 6
Eldars 7


Armor

Snaga’s skin 1
Goblins’ light 2
Orcs’ light 3
Mail 4
Half Plate/Orcs and Goblins’ Plate 5
Plate/Dwarven Armor 6
Eldar/Superior Dwarven Armor 7
Dragonslayers  8


Shields

Light Shield 3
Normal Shield 4
Heavy Shield 5
Eldar and Dragonslayers 6


Defence Skill

Snaga 1
Goblins 2
Orcs 3
M. Humans/ Uruk Hai 4
Numenoreans 5
Elves/Dwarves 6
Eldars 7

These are just "base" stats. Every unit got a set of modifiers reflecting their status, training and skills, of course

[LongPike]

I am actually happy to hear that there are a lot of satisfied people out there. The developer team deserves all the praise it can get for this gem, I just hope to help the minority who feels the EDU could use a little extra care.
Now, I have decided to start a complete overhaul of the stats, based on the "race" system. Here it is the general guidelines I am using, tell me what you think:

Melee Attack

Snaga 1
Goblins 2
Orcs 3
M. Humans/ Uruk Hai 4
Numenoreans/ Dwarves 5
Elves 6
Eldars 7


Missile Attack

Snaga 2
Goblins/Orcs 3
M. Humans/ Uruk Hai 4
Numenoreans/ Dwarves 5
Elves 6
Eldars 7


Armor

Snaga’s skin 1
Goblins’ light 2
Orcs’ light 3
Mail 4
Half Plate/Orcs and Goblins’ Plate 5
Plate/Dwarven Armor 6
Eldar/Superior Dwarven Armor 7
Dragonslayers  8


Shields

Light Shield 3
Normal Shield 4
Heavy Shield 5
Eldar and Dragonslayers 6


Defence Skill

Snaga 1
Goblins 2
Orcs 3
M. Humans/ Uruk Hai 4
Numenoreans 5
Elves/Dwarves 6
Eldars 7

These are just "base" stats. Every unit got a set of modifiers reflecting their status, training and skills, of course

PB has set up a mature system of how to balance different weapons/attack delays/troop quality/skeletons etc. I think one could take that as a base line and then just add in another set of attributes according to race. This would eliminate having to balance too many factors simultaniously.


Race bonuses could f.e. be

Human: Baseline
Elves +1 Missile Attack, +1 Melee and +1 Forest terrain bonus, very-hardy
Dwarfes +1 Melee, +1 Armour/Defence +1 HP but 20% smaller units, very-hardy

etc.

If you really want to start from scratch you're also going to have to consider how the different skeleton models influence the timing of attacks and hence battle results.

[pwf224]

I am actually happy to hear that there are a lot of satisfied people out there. The developer team deserves all the praise it can get for this gem, I just hope to help the minority who feels the EDU could use a little extra care.
Now, I have decided to start a complete overhaul of the stats, based on the "race" system. Here it is the general guidelines I am using, tell me what you think:

Melee Attack

Snaga 1
Goblins 2
Orcs 3
M. Humans/ Uruk Hai 4
Numenoreans/ Elves 5
Eldars 6
Dwarves 7


Missile Attack

Snaga 2
Goblins/Orcs/ Dwarves 3
M. Humans/ Uruk Hai 4
Numenoreans 5
Elves 6
Eldars 7


Armor

Snaga’s skin 1
Goblins’ light 2
Orcs’ light 3
Mail 4
Half Plate/Orcs and Goblins’ Plate 5
Plate/Dwarven Armor 6
Eldar/Superior Dwarven Armor 7
Dragonslayers  8


Shields

Light Shield 3
Normal Shield 4
Heavy Shield 5
Eldar and Dragonslayers 6


Defence Skill

Snaga 1
Goblins 2
Orcs 3
M. Humans/ Uruk Hai 4
Numenoreans 5
Elves/Dwarves 6
Eldars 7

These are just "base" stats. Every unit got a set of modifiers reflecting their status, training and skills, of course

I made a few changes in the post above to melee and missile base values. Dwarves should have low missile ability, but strong melee to counter this. I just moved them up and down according to what I think works. Take from it what you will


EDIT: KK just uploaded a new EDU with some minor changes that you might want to take a look at

[saulot333]

Here is it the EDU with the temporary fixes I have described in my first post plus some other little things, if you are interested.

[Tharros]

1. Why are Elves and Eldar better at melee than Dwarves?
2. Snaga and Goblins should be basically the same stats wise as they are both just small orcs. No biggie though.

Otherwise looks pretty good.

EDIT: What about unit costs? Have those been changed?

[HaveFallen]

I would like to try out please, these are save game compatible right?

[Tharros]

I would like to try out please, these are save game compatible right?

Yes it will be. Just back up your old EDU.

[saulot333]

Thank you Tharros for the interest showed.

1) Now, you must know that I am a Dwarves-fan and I have more than a little bias against Elves, so I am not putting the damn pointy-ears on top because of fanboyism. But I have to admit that, Tolkien lore-wise, Elves, especially Noldors, ARE a bit above everyone, dwarves included. You can see, however, that Dwarves come a close second, being on par with defence skills, armor, shields.

2) Snaga and goblins are almost the same thing, true, but snaga are goblin slaves, basically denutrited, demoralized, phisically abused goblins, and I think it should show.

I am going to start modding the EDU along the lines exposed, once it's "done" I will upload it for playtesting by some brave volounteer.

[Tharros]

I'd be happy to test you EDU out once you are done

I would edit it myself but I don't really have the time ATM.

[saulot333]

Ok, half done. Mordor, OotMM, Harad, Gondor, Isengard, Dwarves are finished. I think it could be useful explaining my balance system a bit better:

- the numbers I have put up for each race are the ones used for the "regular" troops. Good troops get a +1, elite a +2. Specialised, AOR units etc. get another +1;
- charge values depends on the attack ones, modified by the nature and weapons of the units, plus some other modifiers based upon lores ("wild" units tend to be better at charging);
- Bodyguards units are really strong: usually I would go for the "weak bodyguard" route, but I believe that heroes and their companions should be a powerful force in a LotR battlefield;
- things like morale and prices will be adjusted later, so if you have any suggestion, please do contribute.

That's all for now, hope to have an alpha sometime later today

[RomoR]

Sounds good, here's hoping to try out your Alpha today

[pwf224]

I think you should also take into account the weapon choice. Dwarven axes and hammers would be more powerful than elven swords in attack, but slower attack rate. Spears would be somewhere in the middle, while swords would be the weakest but fastest attack rate, plus, one handed spears and swords have the bonus of being able to have a shield.

PS- Do you think you'll be able to adjust unit sizes as well, giving orcs more horde-like units and non norcs smaller, better quality units?

[saulot333]

@ pwf224
Weapons customization: Absolutely. This is something that must be done, just not for the alpha. But it will be done.
Numbers: I am taking numbers into account already. However, right now I am trying to balance things as they are, meaning no number changes for now.

A piece of advice for everyone who is trying to mod his EDU: be on the look out for the ap trait! While testing my changes I found out that some units were a lot stronger than what their stats suggested. Studying the files I discovered that the ap attribute allocation is...well, almost random. EVERY units armed with blunt weapons, axes and halberds have it, it doesn't matter if we are talking about primitive clubs or ornated polearms. The entire Rohan roster have the ap attribute for their swords. And keep in mind that ap is an incredibly effective attribute.

[Podolskius]

Sorry Saulot, but what is the ap trait?

Great approach, otherwise!

[pwf224]

armour peircing. It helps for Rohan against Isengard for example, which might explain that.