Unit stats

[DeliCious.vP]

This is my take on the Unit stats + rep if im right if im wrong please insult me

http://www.supload.com/sound_confirm...=767501329.wma

http://www.supload.com/sound_confirm...t=84040899.wma UPDATE Latest one.

[Jean=A=Luc]

It's like listening to a depressed addict talking about his life, only instead of cocaine and amphetamins it's archers. The part at the end when you made that small pause and then said "maybe I'm just crazy" was priceless.

Even though it was funny and probably mostly true no rep, sorry. There's a way to be critical without being obnoxious, you just have to try.

[DeliCious.vP]

It's like listening to a depressed addict talking about his life, only instead of cocaine and amphetamins it's archers. The part at the end when you made that small pause and then said "maybe I'm just crazy" was priceless.

Even though it was funny and probably mostly true no rep, sorry. There's a way to be critical without being obnoxious, you just have to try.

im right thou and i dont mean to sound depressed thats just how i sound when i talk neutral. i mean it would sound weird if i was hobbit happy wouldent it. ty for imput jean luc thou

[MadTiest]

You praise the creator of stainless steel but you say the person who balanced TATW has no idea what he was doing. They are the same person/divine entity: King Kong. The only difference is that KK did not have enough time to properly test everything for TATW.

I haven't tested if archers are as overpowered as you claim, but if so, we'll most likely see a sub mod nerfing them soon.

[DeliCious.vP]

You praise the creator of stainless steel but you say the person who balanced TATW has no idea what he was doing. They are the same person/divine entity: King Kong. The only difference is that KK did not have enough time to properly test everything for TATW.

I haven't tested if archers are as overpowered as you claim, but if so, we'll most likely see a sub mod nerfing them soon.

If you only were right in anything u said pirate. KK did not balance the units The beta testers did KK cant do it all you have to share the load seen ? i just know when it comes to unit stats and balance i could do a much better job. Maybe not better then KK himself but better then the beta testers that did this. much better.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=254423 here you go pirate dont be so angry i back up what i say

[Jean=A=Luc]

KK did say this though:

all what I was saying is that Mith was a beta tester (which obviously didn't really test), in fact I had to do most battle map tests on my own and as you may assume I didn't have the time to test everything or the mod would have been delayed for months.

SS is in its 6th release now, I doubt SS1.0 was perfectly balanced plus, unlike SS, this is a total conversion. What I mean to say SS had vanilla/kingdoms to derive its balance from but the factions in TA:TW are completely new although built on the same principles.

It'll get better with time once the team works it out and tatw is very stable and smooth for its 1st release imo.

[Metallistic]

You were right about most of the things.I too think the mod is not balanced at all.I hope they fix that quick.

[Jean=A=Luc]

Yes, the basics are the same but the values are different and tatw needs to be balanced on its own and that's what KK didn't have time to properly do.

[DeliCious.vP]

he should not take time to fix this beta testers should and report back the unit stats is newbie made. i mean orc raiders with 7 dmg are their any weak units in this game? everything is just to high seen ?

[Toyotomi]

Heres an idea....

For the amount of time it probably took you to -

a) Possibly write that little speech down

b) Possibly download a third party program to record your voice and or get the default windows stuff setup properly with your soundcard and mic

c) Record yourself and then make an account and upload your voice recording

d) Post it here

You could have easily edited the archer stats yourself to your liking - I mean, theres probably a lot of things that one could complain about (if one were so inclined) in this FIRST VERSION RELEASE of an independantly produced modification, but this is pretty bad.

"When I see an archer with 12" = if you don't like it go edit it, how hard is that?

[DeliCious.vP]

Heres an idea....

For the amount of time it probably took you to -

a) Possibly write that little speech down

b) Possibly download a third party program to record your voice and or get the default windows stuff setup properly with your soundcard and mic

c) Record yourself and then make an account and upload your voice recording

d) Post it here

You could have easily edited the archer stats yourself to your liking - I mean, theres probably a lot of things that one could complain about (if one were so inclined) in this FIRST VERSION RELEASE of an independantly produced modification, but this is pretty bad.

"When I see an archer with 12" = if you don't like it go edit it, how hard is that?

i Find it amusing when people bark in talking like idiots and think they sound correct like you just did all thou you did not. And the A B C D steps is just ???????

The point is to make it all better all the time change is the formula,why do you get offended when people discuss improvements and changes? and i wanna make the mod better not only for me but for all isent the that point of sharing ? sure i could learn how to mod and do it all myself and 2020 id be done. and to edit all the archers stats ? come on whats wrong with you.

FIRST VERSION RELEASE big letters you wanna make a point with this statement? Imma make a A B C for you
A. Think about what your actually writting about
B. Read/listen through and try to understand what my ultimate goal/agenda is
C.STAY ON TOPIC


a) Possibly write that little speech down
HAHAHHAHAHA i recorded so i wouldent have to write it down.

Consider yourself schooled.

Mune
Dwarfs dont have cavalry. Most archers has stakes and the biggest issues is not fighting them its having them you get enough of them and your unstoppable. to brag of your superior skill and your attempts to undermine our intelligence with comments such as this assuming that everyone is an idiot accept you.
Im not sure what game you are talking about but it cant be TA:TW (Why do you say that) Well you make all thesse assumption "you have to have cavalry catapults balistas to counter the most basic unit.And none of the things you mentioned does even effectivly work, Which is why i made an audio about it.

Seeing that you make such great examples im gonna follow your gracious style and say OMG CANT COUNTER CAVALRY WITH ARCHERS Just make a square with stakes then see who wins your best cavalry vs the best archers lets see that play out. and a counter system is a very complicated thing if it was as simple as rock papper Scissors well then it would be rock papper Scissors.

Its worth mentioning that it should be more or less like you descripe it Mune but in TA TW its not. Ergo i wanna make it more real.

[Il Ducce]

i Find it amusing when people bark in talking like idiots and think they sound correct like you just did all thou you did not. And the A B C D steps is just ???????

The point is to make it all better all the time change is the formula,why do you get offended when people discuss improvements and changes? and i wanna make the mod better not only for me but for all isent the that point of sharing ? sure i could learn how to mod and do it all myself and 2020 id be done. and to edit all the archers stats ? come on whats wrong with you.

FIRST VERSION RELEASE big letters you wanna make a point with this statement? Imma make a A B C for you
A. Think about what your actually writting about
B. Read/listen through and try to understand what my ultimate goal/agenda is
C.STAY ON TOPIC


a) Possibly write that little speech down
HAHAHHAHAHA i recorded so i wouldent have to write it down.

Consider yourself schooled.

Dude, you get all uptight when you think people call you an idiot, and throughout this thread you have basically told everybody they were morons and didn't know anything. You haven't responded to people who told you reasonable things like "if you hate it so much, go in and change the stats yourself", and all day you have been posting threads belittling all the hard work the devs have put in to this free mod. Seriously guy, you are kind of a jerk.

To reiterate all the excellent points that have been raised: 1.)this is a first release, rebalancing will be necessary. 2.) this is a free mod. 3.) if it bothers you so much, change the stats yourself. I am sure someone would be willing to give you instructions.

Edit: upon closer inspection, I notice you have responded to the "changing stats yourself" suggestion, but apparently, you have chosen to let others do your work for you.

[Toyotomi]

Here you go then.

How to change archer values -

a) Look up the file (if installed to the default) C:\Programfiles\SEGA\Medieval II Total war\mods\Third_Age\data - and the file you're looking for is called "export_descr_unit.txt"

b) Open the file with either wordpad (some complain notepad can mess up the text files, but I have never had a problem using it) or notepad and as an example look for say hmmm how about Eldar Archers

c) You will come across this;

type Elf Archer3
dictionary Elf_Archer3 ; Eldar Archers
category infantry
class missile
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_missile
banner holy crusade
soldier Lithuanian_Archers, 60, 0, 1.2
officer highel_captain_early_flag
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy, can_withdraws, free_upkeep_unit, start_not_skirmishing
move_speed_mod 1.1
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 14, 2, arrow, 210, 35, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 9, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 4, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 5
stat_ground 1, -1, 2, 1
stat_mental 12, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 15
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 790, 320, 75, 75, 790, 4, 100
armour_ug_levels 3
armour_ug_models Elf_Archer_Noldor
ownership egypt
era 0 egypt
era 1 egypt
era 2 egypt
recruit_priority_offset 15

-----

The value in red is the attack value for the primary weapon, and as is the case with archers it represents their bow / ranged attack. Simply change that value and save the file (maybe make a backup first, always a good idea) and you're finished. As each elven faction only has a couple of ranged units it would not take very long to simply modify it yourself. Changing ALL archers in the game, well, that might take a few minutes longer but again, is very easily done in the above mentioned manner.

If you're interested in doing more, I'd suggest having a good look at the top or beginning of the file itself, as it basically has all the values listed and what each of them do. Or you can find a better tutorial somewhere on these forums.

Consider yourself schooled.

^^ couldn't help myself and I am a sarcastic bastard, oh well.

[Mithrandir]

he should not take time to fix this beta testers should and report back the unit stats is newbie made. i mean orc raiders with 7 dmg are their any weak units in this game? everything is just to high seen ?

I was one of the few who actually did extensive battle map balance testing. I don't know how many times I told KK that I wanted orcs to be weaker and Elves/Dwarves to be stronger. Granted, KK did nerf orcs a bit and he did increase elven stats. However, I wanted the difference to be even greater, but KK didn't. KK didn't want orc factions to be unplayable because of too weak units and he didn't want elves to be "overpowered monsters" (quote). Realizing that KK didn't want to change their stats further, I dropped it.

[DeliCious.vP]

I was one of the few who actually did extensive battle map balance testing. I don't know how many times I told KK that I wanted orcs to be weaker and Elves/Dwarves to be stronger. Granted, KK did nerf orcs a bit and he did increase elven stats. However, I wanted the difference to be even greater, but KK didn't. KK didn't want orc factions to be unplayable because of too weak units and he didn't want elves to be "overpowered monsters" (quote). Realizing that KK didn't want to change their stats further, I dropped it.

Then i would say he was pretty right u wanted to make elfs even stronger ? The ranged dmg is an issue for the quaillity of gaming. For the record fighting against archers was never tough for me but fighting with archers is super easy. every archer unit for every race should be nerfed Sure take the crapiest orc archer give him 3-4 attack and give the best archer unit 6-8 attack and add Effective against armor.

you call that a test KK ? your archers stood still and just shot and they still managed to get 48 horses ? thats not a success and second of what if you placed stakes? (assuming they can i dont remember) and the 1v1 factor is not a good balance engine is it i mean take starcraft 1 marine vs 1 zergling Zergling win. 12 marines vs 36 zerglings little micro Marines win.
Then again what do i know im not a hot shot mooder like you. and this is not starcraft.

And not all battles are fought 1v1 on a grassy plain.

[DeliCious.vP]

This is my Microed eldar. i tryed without micro got more or less the same result as you killed 70% of the riders just standing still WIth archers. and with micro i did this.

And sorry for doublepost.

and btw maybe this is why i find it to easy sry i will never complain about difficulty again. maybe im just that good ?

Uplaod swan knights vs orc bands both times i played orc bands. i tried playing with swan knights and got crushed vs theese supposed peasants of mordor. reason why i didnt bring a picture as myself playing swan knights is that i noticed that hte computer is a considerable better charger then iam.

Is this how it should be or? yes no ? orc band raping swan knights?

[BlackViper]

Honestly I don't understand what you want...
You want crappy archers because you win to easy. But when they are crappy you complain you win to easy because the archers of the enemy are to crappy. Also you want it to be difficult but when you have to make it difficult yourself it is ... Just don't make full stacks of archers mate it is as simple as that. I can easily win with a full stack of mumakil too!
They are OP they should be crappy! Then you switch faction and go complain they are to weak and you can win with a full stack of elven archers...
You see my point you can win with a full stack of mumakill aswell with a single loss now is that unfair too? No why should that be unfair... They are just better face the facts.

That you can win with something easily doesn't mean the balancing is bad it means your good or the AI did something stupid. And we all know the AI can't be much better so you should make it more difficult yourself.

[Mune]

Think of it this way; There is no one correct formula for unit balance using the M2TW engine. Try out a number of different mods and submods and you'll see what I mean.

I'll use an example from my experience; Stainless Steel. Installing SS 6.1 and no submods, one can argue that the balance is pretty good. Add in a submod like Byg 3 or RR/RC and things are dramatically changed, including unit stats. Is one balanced and the other not? One could argue that one may be more balanced than the other, but that would be debatable (hence, room for speculation on that argument). For a more specific example, I noticed that damage in general was lowered when installing SS 6.2 (with all the included submods). This makes for a different battle experience, and balance has changed a little between units, but both 6.1 and 6.2 are arguably well balanced.

When I saw some of the stats for this mod, it was obvious that the search for balance has once again been shaken up. The all-around uniqueness of this mods units and factions likely has something to do with it. I think the general desire was a return to the days of higher damaging attacks, where battles were won or lost in a quicker timeframe. I didn't see this general shift in unit stats as inherently unbalanced; I was certainly willing to give it a try before passing judgement. So far I have not been markedly disappointed with the balance of any particular unit(s), but I'll admit I still have plenty more factions to try out. Archers do indeed do more damage than they used to, but one has to look at all of the units as a whole to see what's really going on. If you only take a piece of the game and note it's differences from the original 'formula' your likely to get yourself worked up over not so big of a deal.

And of course, as everyone else has mentioned, this game is in version 1.0. Meaning it is the original, with only limited playtesting, created for free by generous mods who were constantly hounded for an ASAP release date. Expect balance to be at least slightly off at the very least, and take the time to reflect upon a comparison between the release of this mod and the release of ETW (if you have had a chance to play it). I can say that despite the little quirks and changes in the game (I for one enjoy having effective archers, and can see how they help to balance things like Trolls and Mumakil) I am vastly impressed by what has been given to me. If any of you see faults with the game that you would like to see corrected, either wait patiently for the patching process to come along or get to work yourself on creating a nice submod for the game with what you would call 'better balance'. I have no patience for whiners, particularly when this mod was provided to us for free amid thousands of cries of 'whens the release date?'

I did not read your post about unit balance because I don't need or want to.

[Ireneus]

Who needs line infantry?

Edit: This wasn't just a random 'brag picture.' I wanted to post this in this thread for semi-comical purposes as to how powerful the bow has become. Yeah, the elves should be able to inflict heavy casualties, being master bowmen... but I think this is a bit excessive, right?

I'll admit though that it was fun having elves running around every which way. Those poor Uruk-Hai were just too confused as to which way to go. =P

[DeliCious.vP]

Who needs line infantry?

Edit: This wasn't just a random 'brag picture.' I wanted to post this in this thread for semi-comical purposes as to how powerful the bow has become. Yeah, the elves should be able to inflict heavy casualties, being master bowmen... but I think this is a bit excessive, right?

I'll admit though that it was fun having elves running around every which way. Those poor Uruk-Hai were just too confused as to which way to go. =P

it was good proof of the OP of the elven bows.