my adventure with DLV 6.1

[Hannibalus]

My adventure with DLV 6.1.
After I played my first MTW2 mod (it was Ultimate AI) I had the impression it's a very stable mod (never crashed) however it is a little bit simple. I tried shortly some other mods but all of them have some bugs. Let's see now the most sofisticated mod, with the most innovative ideas. That seems to be definitely DLV.
Congratulation for so much invested work and so many new ideas.

Unfortunatelly I didn't liked all ideas.
Let me tell you my adventure as mongol leader.
I read the game description 2 days ago for 2 hours and they are some very good ideas. Even the army supply appeard at that time (until I didn't played) as a good enhancement.
I started the game. Very nice graphic.
As I enter the campain menu I would like to see what factions it has.
Not so easy at all. The name doesn't tell me very much. I'm speaking 6 languages and I am a hobbyy historian but I cannot understand all faction names. As I click the different faction symbols to see what faction it is may be I see it on the map after the 3. symbol Crash To Desktop.
Start again and look the others but after 3-4 clicks on different symbols every time crash to desktop.
Finally after restarting about 10 tymes I know what factions they are.
Mongols are playable. Interrresting. So let's see it.

I start with the mongols on the edge of the map with 2 crepy settlements, 6 units and 2 generals. No diplomat, no spy.
No units can be recruited.
After 16 rounds of building I can finally with the mongols recruit my first horse archer what other factions can from the beginning on.
HURRA
In the mean time I am informed about all important events around the world:
what princess is ready to get married, who dies, what is discovered in the science, what is doing the pope. In 1180 I already know that exists America on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean but I don't know where ist the closest settlement in my neighbourhood even after 20 rounds.
I just finished the roads so let build a couple of watchtowers to see what's around.
Hoppa.
I cannot build any more horse archers because I have only 59% of pagans.
Ortodox religion is spreading.
Ok. I build a shaman church and a shaman priest.
after 28 rounds from the beginning I can build HA again.
I built a spy and send him also.
The nobels are so exalted of my leading calities that they give me 30.000 gold.
In the mean time my top general and king with 10 stars got sick. The building of the watchtowers was very exhausting for him. What's the problem ?
Aha. Army supply is going out.
(I definitely didn't activated that feature by the options.)
Quickly back to the settlement. I arrived in time and next turm my king is going already better but after next turn he still die by 40 years.
After 30 rounds I finally discover that their is a crepy settlement in my area but still very far where are living some russians or cazac rebels.
Next turn my new king will get the message that offends the nobility but they are still so satisfied with his leadership that he receive a huge amount of gold as gift. 30.000 gold.
Next turn they are also satisfied with me and give me 20.000 gold but I receive a message that I lost government point.
I remenber that I definitly deactivated this stupid thing by the options so why it is nerving me with it ?
But their is another problem. I cannot build any more horse archers after the 36 round. May be I didn't crowned my king. The capital is very far but it is more easy to move the capital to him. Capital changed to the city where is the king.
A new general is growing up. In the 40 round I am already very reach but I cannot build any more horse archers.
At least they never need to eat or any supply train. It seams that only generals die of hunger.
How to conquer the world with 10 HA and why to conquer if I already have so much money, over 50.000 gold. Better I drink it.
I give up.

Some conclusions:
1. I don't think it is realistic to put an American map with a single native nation.
Anyway in 1180 America was still not discovered.
2. Why do the mongols need to receive messages with the photo and availability of the french or danish princess when they even doesn't know who is in their neighbourhood ?
3. Is it not realistic that an ortodox priest can bloc the mongol faction from producing units. That would be a very cheap way to stop them from invading europe.
4. It is not realistic that generals die without a virtual army supply (only in the trait) and other units happy live without any food.
Of course if the game would give an adequate solution by implementing supply wagons (visible) and needed by any army unit it would be a realistic enhancement.
But this way as it is now can only nerve and destroy game satisfaction.
This has nothing with reality.
If not implemented that they eat and they make sex in the game doesn't mean that they don't do but not accentuated this aspect of reality.
5. Mongols seems to be a very crippled faction. That was the price that they are made playable. Better they should emerge and should be not playable but they should be very very dangerous.
6. Half of the map, inclusive where actually the mongols start, America and the Atlantic Ocean is not really necessary for the first era.

I hope my input doesn't make angry anybody and will contribute to make this mod better. With so many ideas(the must new ideas) it could be in the future the best mod in the Total War serie.

[Jonni_g_n]

It can be a pain with the supply traits, but in the long run it adds to much to the game to get rid of it, it would be too easy now to blitz the entire of Europe with a mercenary army. The supply traits add some depth.

I agree that the Americas could be taken out in place of something else, however they do add some to the late game if you last that long.

[Taiji]

Hello Hannibalus, it's unfortunate you picked Mongols for your first campaign - I'd recommend playing another faction, the Mongols are a crap faction for a new player but great for the AI.

More specifically I'd recommend to download and install my BB and start a new campaign as Byzantium, I've just imported excellent new skins and models from CBUR for them, they're fun to play

BTW that's great feedback, thankyou for making the effort!

[Mithtirrall]

Well, i agree with what Taiji said, i played a lot of campaigns by now,
with Norway, wich i think has no easy start, i conquerd the british islands an half of europe and i just stoped because a new version of DLV was out,
with Mongols i had a huge empire spreding over the whole eastern stepps but finaly was brought down by civil war, same with Kiev.
But i dont bicker with that, i think its pritty crap i din't manage to get my people calm, but i love the feature!!

ceers

[helmersen]

Is it possible to have civil war!?

[Taiji]

Is it possible to have civil war!?

I wish, we have 31 factions which is more than max. We'd need an extra faction slot per faction capable of civil war, so if m2tw allowed 62 factions we'd be able to do it.

[Kjertesvein]

Ohh yes, in several levels. You can prevent it, if you know how.

I only reached the part right before my empire splits. I payed of some nobles, trew some in jail and sendt some nobles out to hunt pirats in a 10 foot cog.

EDIT: Taiji, look at Dominion of the sword. They made it.

[Hannibalus]

Taiji
thanks
I will try it.
--------
Now I have done some skirmish battles with SS and with DLV.
DLV seems to have more inteligent Battle AI as SS.
However it seems to me that missile units are extremly weak especially missile cavalery in comparance to their real value what they had on open field.
If you make the option battles time limit 1 hour you will not succed to shut all arrows. I like long lasting battles but 1 hour should be enough.
With pause activation you will have anyway much more.
Many real battles didn't took 1 hour and most of them took just a half of day and here you have a different time skale.
A real campain what took in reality years or 10 years here you need to end at least in 1-2 month.
I would make archers and horse archers with 50-100% higher fire rate.

[Kjertesvein]

If you like to read descriptions on each faction, the read here instead...

[Ahlerich]

My adventure with DLV 6.1.
After I played my first MTW2 mod (it was Ultimate AI) I had the impression it's a very stable mod (never crashed) however it is a little bit simple. I tried shortly some other mods but all of them have some bugs. Let's see now the most sofisticated mod, with the most innovative ideas. That seems to be definitely DLV.
Congratulation for so much invested work and so many new ideas.

Unfortunatelly I didn't liked all ideas.
Let me tell you my adventure as mongol leader.
I read the game description 2 days ago for 2 hours and they are some very good ideas. Even the army supply appeard at that time (until I didn't played) as a good enhancement.
I started the game. Very nice graphic.
As I enter the campain menu I would like to see what factions it has.
Not so easy at all. The name doesn't tell me very much. I'm speaking 6 languages and I am a hobbyy historian but I cannot understand all faction names. As I click the different faction symbols to see what faction it is may be I see it on the map after the 3. symbol Crash To Desktop.
Start again and look the others but after 3-4 clicks on different symbols every time crash to desktop.
Finally after restarting about 10 tymes I know what factions they are.
Mongols are playable. Interrresting. So let's see it.

I start with the mongols on the edge of the map with 2 crepy settlements, 6 units and 2 generals. No diplomat, no spy.
No units can be recruited.
After 16 rounds of building I can finally with the mongols recruit my first horse archer what other factions can from the beginning on.
HURRA
In the mean time I am informed about all important events around the world:
what princess is ready to get married, who dies, what is discovered in the science, what is doing the pope. In 1180 I already know that exists America on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean but I don't know where ist the closest settlement in my neighbourhood even after 20 rounds.
I just finished the roads so let build a couple of watchtowers to see what's around.
Hoppa.
I cannot build any more horse archers because I have only 59% of pagans.
Ortodox religion is spreading.
Ok. I build a shaman church and a shaman priest.
after 28 rounds from the beginning I can build HA again.
I built a spy and send him also.
The nobels are so exalted of my leading calities that they give me 30.000 gold.
In the mean time my top general and king with 10 stars got sick. The building of the watchtowers was very exhausting for him. What's the problem ?
Aha. Army supply is going out.
(I definitely didn't activated that feature by the options.)
Quickly back to the settlement. I arrived in time and next turm my king is going already better but after next turn he still die by 40 years.
After 30 rounds I finally discover that their is a crepy settlement in my area but still very far where are living some russians or cazac rebels.
Next turn my new king will get the message that offends the nobility but they are still so satisfied with his leadership that he receive a huge amount of gold as gift. 30.000 gold.
Next turn they are also satisfied with me and give me 20.000 gold but I receive a message that I lost government point.
I remenber that I definitly deactivated this stupid thing by the options so why it is nerving me with it ?
But their is another problem. I cannot build any more horse archers after the 36 round. May be I didn't crowned my king. The capital is very far but it is more easy to move the capital to him. Capital changed to the city where is the king.
A new general is growing up. In the 40 round I am already very reach but I cannot build any more horse archers.
At least they never need to eat or any supply train. It seams that only generals die of hunger.
How to conquer the world with 10 HA and why to conquer if I already have so much money, over 50.000 gold. Better I drink it.
I give up.

Some conclusions:
1. I don't think it is realistic to put an American map with a single native nation.
Anyway in 1180 America was still not discovered.
2. Why do the mongols need to receive messages with the photo and availability of the french or danish princess when they even doesn't know who is in their neighbourhood ?
3. Is it not realistic that an ortodox priest can bloc the mongol faction from producing units. That would be a very cheap way to stop them from invading europe.
4. It is not realistic that generals die without a virtual army supply (only in the trait) and other units happy live without any food.
Of course if the game would give an adequate solution by implementing supply wagons (visible) and needed by any army unit it would be a realistic enhancement.
But this way as it is now can only nerve and destroy game satisfaction.
This has nothing with reality.
If not implemented that they eat and they make sex in the game doesn't mean that they don't do but not accentuated this aspect of reality.
5. Mongols seems to be a very crippled faction. That was the price that they are made playable. Better they should emerge and should be not playable but they should be very very dangerous.
6. Half of the map, inclusive where actually the mongols start, America and the Atlantic Ocean is not really necessary for the first era.

I hope my input doesn't make angry anybody and will contribute to make this mod better. With so many ideas(the must new ideas) it could be in the future the best mod in the Total War serie.

well written constructive criticizm

the crashes at the faction screen come from the amount of factios i believe and its not possible to fix.

moving the capital to crown your king doesnt work. you always have to crown at the city thats the capital at the start of the game. it could be changed but repman doesnt want to change it because people would take advantage of it. personally i dont like it the way it is. offend the nobility i dont like as well in this and other mods. its just not nicely represented. if the unloyal generals would just become a rebel army i d like it more. having a disobidient unit that just cant be moved anymore annoys me. a general couldnt get away with it either. sire i dont follow your orders anymore usually doesnt even work in kindergarden. on second thought it might work in a walldorf school - antiauthoritarian and all

the core of the mod is the best around in my opinion - at least gameplay wise, but some things are fun killers coz they are too restrictive. this is my opinion. there are some (or many) people that like it exactly the way it is. at least thats what i hope. sometimes it seems that only a minority likes it the way it is.

many people wanted america gone from the campaign map but repman doesnt so it has to be respected i guess. it was a big dispute that cut the fans into to camps though.


ergo:

some things make it hard but once you learn about all conditions it will increase the fun for you in the long run.
some things will just annoy the hell out of you and you will never appreciate them. at least thats how i feel about it.

i assume thats the reason why there seem to bee way fewer fans of dlv then stainless steel even though dlv has more too offer.

it has more to offer but also features that make you suffer

schönen abend

[Hannibalus]

well written constructive criticizm

thanks Ahlerich
thanks for the explications also

the core of the mod is the best around in my opinion - at least gameplay wise, but some things are fun killers coz they are too restrictive. this is my opinion. there are some (or many) people that like it exactly the way it is. at least thats what i hope. sometimes it seems that only a minority likes it the way it is.

shurely you have right
DLV has the most deep from all mods, I don't put in question that.
There are mods where the map is full with provinces and factions but the game lacks a certain deepness. However may be they can point with other things.
It is POSITIVE by DLV:
-1. there is a spread in the map, no. of units, unit details, no. of provinces, no. of factions
-2. their is a high deepness in the game: a lot of new features not present in vanilla
-3. their is a flexibility in the game: you have a lot of options by start
-4. the game is very stabil when you started ( I didn't had crash from inside of the game)
However it is also something NEGATIVE:
-5. by so many options, so much deepness and spread it is somehow uncoordinated
May be it would be better to have a little bit less but between them to have more coordination. The different features, factions and options should better fit to each other.
examples:
- a. if I selected no GOV points then it should come no screens that I lost this points
- b. if I am in 1080 I should not see the map of America (I will come back to this point)
- c. if armies without general doesn't die of hunger than should the general also not die
I think generals must even die last in such a situation because at the firs he will not give food to the cheapest units, than to the professionals and elite will die last.
- d. I think it is very strange if I play the mongols that they cannot build HA in the beginning and other factions can. Doesn't give me very realistic feeling.
Solutions:
- point a. probable a bug - but as more options they are as more difficult the testing
I like it to have options but only if they work well.
- point c - the same deepness but like in EB1.2 (generals do not die on foraign territory but the troops are loosing moral step by step)
- Map (b., d.): If the mongols cannot be solved to be played reasonable by humans than should be blocked for AI. Better less playable factions but they should work well. And the mongols can also start as emerging faction and the map can be cut. This way cannot come some factions to the idea to send an orthodox priest to their starting position and block them from the beginning on.
America - here is the problem that players are greedy. They want in the same game to have everything. Then everything will be unrealistic.
The game should be more restricted in reasonable time scale and space and not like in civilization 10.000 years of history from the stone age until futuristic technologies. That cannot be realistic.

I think there should be two different games(mods) for better realism.
A. a mod which cover the mongol and timuruid attack (1080-1405)
here no american map is needed
here may be with 4 seasons (1w 3s)
B. a mod which begin after the death of Timur Lenk and covers the discovery and partial colonization of America (1405 - 1650)
here more detailed american map is needed with more native factions
here the time will go faster so their should be may be 6 seasons (2w + 4s) for better realism

it has more to offer but also features that make you suffer

The problem is not if you suffer but if you suffer without any reasonable sense.
People like problems and likes solving them but they don't like to work without real reason.
I wouldn't say anything if the army without general will rout or rebell in the same time or earlier when the general dying from hunger.

[Ahlerich]

-horse archers from start for the mongold make sense, light ones of course
-having starving troops i believe isnt possible to implement so the only option is to make the general starving. fails the realism check but still improves the gameplay as you cant wander around with your units forever. however for the eastern part of the map, wide steppe/few towns this is a real problem.
-america...lol. its really weird why some support it and why repman really insits on leaving it in. maybe he is cooking something up to improve this feature. there is a sub mod though called "dlv europa" which removed the american part. some reported issues though with non english tw games and therefore i didnt dare trying it out. nothing is a bigger turn off then CTDs

mal als randbemerkung: kommt mir so for als gibts hier nen pahr extreme fans die jegliche kritik zurückweisen. hab selber schon versucht nen pahr veränderungen vorzuschlagen. leider wurd das alles als mit argumenten nach dem motto "dann ist das spiel zu einfach für mich" abgetan
Deutschritterorden ist auch eine partei die kaum gespielt werden kann was absolut offensichtlich ist und alle die ne TO kampagne überlebt haben haben das nur aufgrund von exploits wie händler nach america schiffen oder schnellen blitzkriegen gegen skandinavien hinbekommen. in meiner meinung viel zu restriktiv und auch unrealistisch. im moment ist der herr der ringe mod hype da darum posten hier wohl grad kaum leute aber für die zukunft würd ich mir auch offenere ohren für konstruktive kritik wünschen. dlv ist der beste mod für m2tw abgesehen fon third age total war das aber momentan nur beta charakter hat. leider gibt es features in dlv die absolut nervig sind. manche kann ich selber abstellen aber viele nicht und leider ist die community oftmals ignorant.

[Hannibalus]

shure
you have right

das ist leider bei jedem Mod so
- wo gut überlegt wird gibt es zu wenig Dampf und wo zu viel Dampf ist wird falsch gelenkt und wenn es einmal schon eine Richtung gewählt wurde es ist schwierig den Gleis zu wechseln
EB ist auch ein sehr guter mod aber dort gibt's auch ein paar Konzeptfehler

[Ahlerich]

shure
you have right

das ist leider bei jedem Mod so
- wo gut überlegt wird gibt es zu wenig Dampf und wo zu viel Dampf ist wird falsch gelenkt und wenn es einmal schon eine Richtung gewählt wurde es ist schwierig den Gleis zu wechseln
EB ist auch ein sehr guter mod aber dort gibt's auch ein paar Konzeptfehler

haha gutes zitat

[Kjertesvein]

Some of these issues can be solved, if you bother.

A.) If you don't play with GOV.points, then there is no need to check them or care for them. No matter, you can report this in the thread: Feedback for 6.1 -Repman asked specificly for info that got to do with the scripts(events, merchant bank, investment, government points, etc).

B.) I agree that Americas should be invisible/blacked out.

C.)

• Having starving troops...hmm... it's impossible for captians to aquire titles/retinue.
• Routing armys....hmm... would be kinda cool if armys would automaticly rebel when the General die. Like the German crusade, lol. But is it done before in M2TW?
• It would be cool if huge armies, without generals, would desert(like crusader armys).

D.) I see theMongol thing, and I belive you could ask Taiji to put it in the Battle Ballance, his mini-mod work normally goes straight into DLV. Remember to give feedback and rep. or he will get quite cranky.

[Hannibalus]

thanks Blackleaf-Wille
A and B would have sense
D mongols are so badly solved that some minor changes would bring nothing when played by humans (it should be blocked to AI or mus be horde)
- receiving so much money as mongols for nothing is absolute unrealistic because they was very poor before began to expand
C. dying generals of hunger are very bad solved in DLV( and in SS is also something similar)
Solutions:
-1. a general which staying in enemy teritory could have step by step decreased moral for his troops like in EB 1.2
2. make armies without general rout or rebell after the same amount of turns as a general die (but not only the units where the general died, also where was no general from the beginning)
That must be moddable somehow.
In vanillas Kingdom Americas Expansion playing the Appache faction I remarked that armies without general rout very often what doesnt occur in other Vanilla mods by the same game core. so it must be regulated by the modfolder.