Thoughts on the depiction of the Byzantine Empire in the Medieval: Total War games?

[BKB]

I hope this is the best place for this thread.

I'm doing a project on the depiction of Byzantium in the two Medieval: Total War games - to what extent its accurate, what kind of image of the Empire it portrays - and I'd like to get some general thoughts from other players. Anything in terms of military, names, geography, situation, politics, culture - even the faction colour. All thoughts/opinions are welcome, particularly these strands:

1) Those knowledgeable on the Byzantine Empire can perhaps say what they think is wrong with it - or right with it - and how accurate various elements are. Recommendations for improvements might also be an area of interest.

2) I'd particularly like to know first impressions from those who may never have even heard of the Byzantine Empire before playing the games. What struck you first about them? What sort of impression did you go away with purely from playing the game? Did that change over time? And so forth.

3) How do you think the depiction of Byzantium changed from Medieval to Medieval II, if at all? Did it get worse? Better?

Again, this is mostly based on your impressions just from playing the game, so even if you haven't read anything about Byzantium please feel free to chime in.

[Tiberios]

Answer to 3: Firstly, giving it the name Byzantine EMpire is wrong, as it is a term that was never used in the time the state existed. In that time it was known in the Eastern Christian and Muslim world as the Basileía tôn Rhōmaíōn (Litteraly: Empire of the Romans)in Greek and Rûm in arabic and Turkish (Rûm = Rome). In the Western world it was called the Greek Empire simply because the Pope did not wish to recognize the fact the the Greek speaking eastern part of the Roman Empire was the direct decendant of the Roman Empire.

Secondly, the depiction in both game is horrid. Especially in MTW2. The Eastern Roman Empire was far from the decaying, stagnating lump of a once proud empire. Only 40 years before the game starts the Empire was at a zenith. After the rule of Basil II and his predecessors, the Empire was the most dominat power in Europe. Roman culture and Ancient greek culture was furthered greatly during the entire span of the Empire, even after it declined in the 13th and 14 centuries. The rule of the Komnenos Dynasty was, despite their inablity to decisively oust the turks from Anatolia, a great period in the Eastern Roman Empire's history. During that time, Constantinople was reaffrimed as the most important city of Europe and the Empire was instrumental in securing the Eastern border of Europe against Islam and as a staging point for the Crusades.

All in all the depiction of the Empire in MTW2 is one of the most horridly historicly wrong accounts of any empire i have ever experienced.

[newromansc]

no, Byzantium reached their height under Justinian Kralle 18.

[Tiberios]

no, Byzantium reached their height under Justinian Kralle 18.

It maxium zenith yes. But under the rule of Basil II the Empire reached another zenith. At that time the empire had regained Cilicia, parts of Armenia, Macedonia and Bulgaria. It's armies were also better then they had been for some years. I belive this restoration, if you can call it that, began under Nikephoros Phocas and John Tzimices and peaked under Basil II.


Secondly, the term Byzantine was first used in 1557, when German historian Hieronymus Wolf in his work Corpus Historiæ By­zantinæ, which was a collection of Eastern Roman sources and texts.

[MaximiIian]

Answer to 3: Firstly, giving it the name Byzantine EMpire is wrong, as it is a term that was never used in the time the state existed.

Doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong; just that the Byzantines pretended to be Romans. But they were Byzantine and Greek.

[husker9.2]

Doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong; just that the Byzantines pretended to be Romans. But they were Byzantine and Greek.

They were the continuation of the Roman empire even after the western half fell. to use and example if Paris or Berlin were to be destroyed tomorrow (god forbid) and their capitals moved else were does that mean they are no longer German or French? The Romans moved their capital quite a bit does, It was Constantinople once and when the western half fell their capitol was Ravenna i think, does that mean hey are no longer roman?. Yes the eastern half was more greek but you have to remember Rome was heavily influenced by the greeks originally. The eastern Roman empire continue roman civilization. The term Byzantine Empire was most likely coined from western scholars who didn't recognize them as true successors because to them the Holy Roman Empire was the true successor.

The point is to get history right, they called them selves the empire of the romans. that's how it should be.

[frontier-auxilia]

Half arsed and usually gone by the outdated pretext that their military is old fashioned out of style and antique.

Plus they are all in purple. Mods on the other hand done a better job .

[Tiberios]

Half arsed and usually gone by the outdated pretext that their military is old fashioned out of style and antique.

Plus they are all in purple. Mods on the other hand done a better job .

Mods have done a amazing job.

[Arto]

They're in purple. Do I need to say more?

Also, their cavalry is too underpowered.

[Faramir D'Andunie]

We can thank some talented people on this forum who have worked hard to present us a great represantation.
But we should be honest, compared to what they looked like on the old Medieval total war, vanilla Med2 is an improvement.

Although to be honest this a case with every faction more or less. From the Romans of RTW with their wardogs and ninja arcani to hmm... the Byzantines in Med2.

Though I have to wonder, what is wrong with purple?

[Xerrop]

Though I have to wonder, what is wrong with purple?

Indeed, purple is the imperial colour of the Achaemenids and the Romans. Nothing wrong about it.

[Orko]

The reprsentation of them rather sucks. Heck, even their name is incorrect!

[Watchman]

Indeed, purple is the imperial colour of the Achaemenids and the Romans. Nothing wrong about it.

Except that purple dye was insanely expensive at the time and largely restricted to the monarchs.

[iksterminator]

Best place to look is Brocen Crescent mod, Eastern Romans are really deeply discussed there

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88822

Good luck!

[neoptolemos]

the "golden era" is considered the 1oth-11th cent though

[husker9.2]

The Vanilla games got NOTHING right (except the city names). every thing from their map of the region to how they skinned and named the units. for a good depiction and image of what the Romans looked like you should visit the CBUR forum and look at their mod if you haven't already.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=718

I would also suggest playing with their mod on SS it gives a very historically accurate picture on the units and of the buildings. The map on SS isn't the most historically accurate but if it's the visuals of the empire's soldiers and warfare you want, you definently should start there.

In regards to the historical boundaries of the Empire They never conquered north of the Danube, and were in a constant struggle in Asia minor against the turks. they rarely ever held an advantage in amounts of land in Asia minor thanks to the catastrophe at Manzikert, their navy helped them control the coasts which helped the Kommenean restoration.
Below the first image link is pre manzikert, the second is after, and Kommenean restoration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ma...re_1025-en.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Af..._Manzikert.PNG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Th...re,_c.1180.PNG

I don't mean or offensive or anything but the way the vanilla version of the game represented this great civilization was pretty bad, i'm sure people who are professionals when its comes to studying the medieval romans would agree as well.

And yes from the first game to the second the depiction got worse...alot worse. i'm thankful for the work the guys did on this game but they needed to do more research on this great civilization.

[Space Wolves]

There is nothing wrong with the color purple, hell, i'd dress my men pink if only to later boast that you guys got beat by guys wearing pink armor....and in this case, purple for the byzantines...

[Stavroforos]

Guys, don't start another Roman vs. Greek vs. Byzantine shitfest.

Anyway, my main concern with the depiction of the Byzantine Empire in Medieval II (I only have vague recollections of Medieval 1) is that basically the entire religious life of the Empire is ignored, and even a breif glimpse at Byzantine history will show you a people deeply concerned with religion.

[husker9.2]

poor BKB he must be overwhelmed by our responses lol

[Space Wolves]

He has no idea what kind of hell he just unleashed...