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Thread: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

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  1. #1
    Nikos's Avatar VENGEANCE BURNS
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    Default Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0417083957.htm
    ScienceDaily (Apr. 18, 2009) — During the last 540 million years, the earth's oxygen levels have fluctuated wildly. Knowing that the dinosaurs appeared around the time when oxygen levels were at their lowest at 12%, Tomasz Owerkowicz, Ruth Elsey and James Hicks wondered how these monsters coped at such low oxygen levels. But without a ready supply of dinosaurs to test their ideas on, Owerkowicz and Hicks turned to a modern relative: the alligator."We knew testing the effects of different oxygen levels would work with alligators," Owerkowicz explains, 'because crocodilians have survived in their basic shape and form for 220 million years. They must be doing something right to have survived the oxygen fluctuations.' Choosing to start at the beginning of alligator development, the trio decided to try incubating alligator eggs at different oxygen levels, to find out how the youngsters grew and developed.
    Receiving newly laid alligator eggs from Elsey at the Rockefeller Wildlife Refuge, Owerkowicz divided the eggs into groups incubated at 12% (low) oxygen, 21% (normal) oxygen and 30% (high) oxygen, and waited to see what would happen. After almost 10 weeks of waiting, the eggs began hatching and Owerkowicz could see that there were no obvious differences between the alligators that developed in normal and high oxygen atmospheres.
    But he was in for a shock when the low oxygen level hatchlings began to emerge. The tiny alligators' bellies were enormously swollen. They had failed to absorb all of the egg yolk food supply, leaving them with huge yolk-distended bellies. In some cases the bellies were so big that the animals' legs could not reach the ground, and the alligators had to sit around until they had burned off the yolk and could begin moving.
    Owerkowicz suspects that there was not enough oxygen for the developing embryos to consume the yolk. The low oxygen level youngsters' organs were much smaller too, all except the heart, which was relatively large, presumably to maximize use of the youngsters' limited oxygen supplies. Owerkowicz admits that he had thought that the low oxygen newborns' lungs would also be enlarged, to compensate for the poor oxygen supply, but they were not, probably because the incubating youngsters do not use their lungs and instead obtain their oxygen through blood vessels in the egg's membrane.
    Next Owerkowicz was curious to see how the alligators performed after 3 months in their respective atmospheres. Checking the reptiles' breathing and metabolic rates, it was clear that the animals in the high oxygen atmosphere were breathing much less than the normal and low oxygen animals, probably because animals in the 30% oxygen atmosphere breathe in more oxygen per lungful, translating into a significant energy saving, which the reptiles could invest in growth. And when Owerkowicz checked the size of the 3 month old low oxygen youngsters' lungs, he could see that they had caught up with his expectations and were larger than those of the normal oxygen alligators. The alligators' lungs were enlarged to compensate for the low oxygen supply, allowing the alligators to increase their metabolic rates, but not as much as the normal or high oxygen alligators.
    Owerkowicz admits that although his results can't tell us what life was like for his alligators' prehistoric predecessors, it is clear that "their growth and metabolic patterns would have been significantly different," he says.
    Interesting experiment, fascinating how the growth and developmental patterns changed with less oxygen.
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    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    "And when Owerkowicz checked the size of the 3 month old low oxygen youngsters' lungs, he could see that they had caught up with his expectations and were larger than those of the normal oxygen alligators. The alligators' lungs were enlarged to compensate for the low oxygen supply, allowing the alligators to increase their metabolic rates, but not as much as the normal or high oxygen alligators."
    It's funny how the body adapts.


  3. #3

    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    That was fascinating Nikos. But i did not understand the developmental 'bloating' part. Why exactly did that happen? Could u explain it perhaps on a more molecular bio perspective ?

    Prince
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    Quote Originally Posted by IndianPrince View Post
    That was fascinating Nikos. But i did not understand the developmental 'bloating' part. Why exactly did that happen? Could u explain it perhaps on a more molecular bio perspective ?

    Prince
    I think the yolk was still contained in them internally.
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    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    So they couldn't digest it or what ? The low oxygen levels slowed down their digestive systems ? It seems probable

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    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    Quote Originally Posted by IndianPrince View Post
    So they couldn't digest it or what ? The low oxygen levels slowed down their digestive systems ? It seems probable

    Prince
    The low oxygen levels slowed down the development of their digestive organs, while speeding up the development of the heart to maximize the little amount of oxygen available. The Yolk was still contained inside them as Phier stated, it just took longer for the Alligator's digestive and other organs to develop. Fascinating, if this was the case with babies of Dinosauria it seems almost certain they would have had to have some parental care.
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    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    The low oxygen levels slowed down the development of their digestive organs, while speeding up the development of the heart to maximize the little amount of oxygen available. The Yolk was still contained inside them as Phier stated, it just took longer for the Alligator's digestive and other organs to develop. Fascinating, if this was the case with babies of Dinosauria it seems almost certain they would have had to have some parental care.
    I doubt it was an issue for them. Once thing I recall reading about dinosaur physiology is that its cardiovascular system was superior to mammals. Don't forget we still had mammals running around at this time too, at least the mammal like reptiles.

    Really I think the experiments are interesting but tell us nothing about dinosaurs, or even early crocodiles.
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    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    I doubt it was an issue for them. Once thing I recall reading about dinosaur physiology is that its cardiovascular system was superior to mammals. Don't forget we still had mammals running around at this time too, at least the mammal like reptiles.

    Really I think the experiments are interesting but tell us nothing about dinosaurs, or even early crocodiles.
    While it doesn't tell us anything concrete, it does tell us what may have been the case or at least it shows how cardiovascular systems would have been much different back then then they are now.
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    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    While it doesn't tell us anything concrete, it does tell us what may have been the case or at least it shows how cardiovascular systems would have been much different back then then they are now.
    Well I think it just doesn't make sense, that at lower oxygen concentrations dinosaurs would have been born helpless. One thing that was not tested, and really could not be tested on a small scale, is the chance of natural survival of the crocodiles they grew in low oxygen. Just because they could survive and adapt to the situation in captivity does not make it viable in reality.

    I have no problem with the idea that dinosaurs would be born with a larger heart, or larger lungs, or various other adaptions. I don't recall it exactly, but not long ago they had a complete young dinosaur fossil found in Italy where they were able to see internal organs, one thing they noted was a very large diaphragm and liver which assisted in its breathing. I'm too lazy to google it right now to look up the details but these adaptions are what many claim to have given the dinosaur is an edge over the mammal like reptiles,which prior to the rise of the dinosaurs dominated the Earth.

    Really based on wo know about dinosaur physiology, I think there is very little to learn by looking at any current reptiles. It would be very interesting to see the same experiment then again, with birds.
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    CtrlAltDe1337's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    I've heard it speculated that the dinosaurs died off because the oxygen got thinner and they had a hard time breathing, thus making them develop slower and stuff, plus easier to kill as youngsters.


  11. #11

    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    Well im sure bird respiratory physiology would be drastically different primarily due to the evolution of flight. Would this not be the case ?

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    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    Quote Originally Posted by IndianPrince View Post
    Well im sure bird respiratory physiology would be drastically different primarily due to the evolution of flight. Would this not be the case ?

    Prince
    indeed prince.

    Although flightless birds have a different system.
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    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    Quote Originally Posted by IndianPrince View Post
    Well im sure bird respiratory physiology would be drastically different primarily due to the evolution of flight. Would this not be the case ?

    Prince
    Yes, but we do have some that might be worth looking at, which I'm not sure ever flew in their past, but haven't at least since before the breakup of Pangaea.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Of course there are some smaller varieties that would be easier to study but what fun is that

    Odds are we wouldn't learn much, but we might.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

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    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Yes, but we do have some that might be worth looking at, which I'm not sure ever flew in their past, but haven't at least since before the breakup of Pangaea.



    Of course there are some smaller varieties that would be easier to study but what fun is that

    Odds are we wouldn't learn much, but we might.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    All of the examples share common aspects. The species of Aves shares the limb structure of the species of Dinosauria put the species of Crocodilia shares other structures with the species of Dinosauria like the neck vertabrae and tail.
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    NONOPUST's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    Interesting stuff

    I wonder what would happen with humans in these environments. Same adaptations no doubt? That is, if a human can fully survive low oxygen for a period of time *shrugs*

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    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    Quote Originally Posted by NONOPUST View Post
    Interesting stuff

    I wonder what would happen with humans in these environments. Same adaptations no doubt? That is, if a human can fully survive low oxygen for a period of time *shrugs*
    If we test that on human fetuses the pro-life people will get pissed... I say do it anyway.


  17. #17

    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post

    All of the examples share common aspects. The species of Aves shares the limb structure of the species of Dinosauria put the species of Crocodilia shares other structures with the species of Dinosauria like the neck vertabrae and tail.
    Based on predator prey ratios, I'm of the firm opinion that dinosaurs were at least partially warm blooded, this is why I think we would learn more from birds then crocodilians.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post

    All of the examples share common aspects. The species of Aves shares the limb structure of the species of Dinosauria put the species of Crocodilia shares other structures with the species of Dinosauria like the neck vertabrae and tail.
    Based on predator prey ratios, I'm of the firm opinion that dinosaurs were at least partially warm blooded, this is why I think we would learn more from birds then crocodilians when it comes to physiology.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

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    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Based on predator prey ratios, I'm of the firm opinion that dinosaurs were at least partially warm blooded, this is why I think we would learn more from birds then crocodilians when it comes to physiology.
    Oh they were most probably warm blooded, but I don't know if that would have any real impact within an egg. I will ask my professor tomorrow.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Alligators Hint At What Life May Have Been Like For Dinosaurs

    Ratites have a seperate lineage from flightless birds ? I was under the impression, that they would've shared the same genetic ancestor, but that due to the extinction of predatory dinosaurs they occupied that niche temporarily with their bulky flightless bodies.

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