Osman's Dream, more like a nightmare?

[Blaze86420]

I'v searched for a topic discussing this but i couldnt find one, it seems that in every campaign the turkish sultanate gets crushed by a combination of ERE and Armenian forces. And there also the occassional georgian invasions and the crusaders going through Anatolia.

Is this going to be addressed in version 1.5? Looks like its going to take more than the fourth crusade to weaken the Eastern Roman Empire.

[lordyu]

the sultanate only gain real territory and power through the weakness of ERE in times of bad leadership. they were severely disunited between the aggressive Turkmens and there ghazi supporters and to more city and farming oriented Turks and Christan Greek subjects. there were several time where nicea was the best ally.

[Emperor of The Great Unknown]

well why don't you help them give them money.

[Blaze86420]

I tried it. They still dont survive. Even if it did, it still wouldnt be right; the turkish sultanate didnt recieve any help historically and still managed.

[teh.frickin.pope]

The ERE has an unhistorical advantage in that their western flank is secure. They do not have to deal with Balkan or Bulgar uprisings/attacks, nor with the Normans that were barking at Greece's door, or even with the court intrigues that plagued them; thus they have it much better than their real-world counterparts.

[DrNikola2006]

When the game starts, the Byzantine Empire is basically at its strongest point in over three hundred years, while the Turks have just come out of a series of unfortunate collapses and calumnies. If you want to follow Osman's goal of establishing an Islamic successor to the Roman Empire and make it a reality, you'll need to play to your strengths of excellent horse archers and far better base relations with your neighbors than the expansionist ERE tends to get. For the most part, you will be on the defensive, but you do have one crucial advantage: It is easier for you to take command of the Anatolian rebels in Sinope and points east than it is for the Christian powers on the peninsula.

And don't be afraid to assassinate every roman general and family member who walks your way, if you can. You're not there to be nice. It's difficult to establish the Ottoman Empire, but it was difficult IRL, too! The greater the challenge, the greater the glory.

[clandestino]

Playing with Turkish sultanate is not harder than playing with any other faction, you just need to immediately make alliance with both Roman empire and Armenia and than take Dorylaeum, Amorium and Amasia before Romans, that way you will split Roman empire in two and stop them expanding to the east. Once you take surounding rebel provinces and build up at least two armies you should attack one of your allies-Byzantium or Armenia, especially if they are not allied to each other. Best thing would be to blitzkrieg Armenia cause it has less provinces and you can actually destroy it in 4 or 5 turns and you will raise a lot of cash by sacking Tarsus and Adana. As of tactical side, when playing with Turks, in first stage, you should rely exclusevly on cavalry ( horse archers ) cause early Turkish infantry is crap and total lack of spear units makes them easy pray for cavalry, so it's best not to use them att all, except for sieges.

[Bull]

I think the original poster means that the AI turkish sultanate gets crushed rather than him/her.

It's really a combination of factors mentioned above by pope, and that autocalc disadvantages horse archers (which basically puts them to melee).

[Blaze86420]

I think the original poster means that the AI turkish sultanate gets crushed rather than him/her.

It's really a combination of factors mentioned above by pope, and that autocalc disadvantages horse archers (which basically puts them to melee).

Yah thats what i meant. I can win easily if im playing . I hope maybe in version 2.0, the balkans might me added.

[DrNikola2006]

Interestingly, in the KoJ game I'm playing right now, the Abassid Caliphate (pushed west by Kwarezhm expansionism, itself pushed south by increasing mongol and rajput attacks) has conquered the Turks and gone on to establish Islamic rule over almost the whole of Anatolia, from Trebizond to Nicaea, apart from a thin strip along the south land which the Romans are using to conquer the Armenians. It's not always all good for the Romans as AI.

[neoptolemos]

The ERE has an unhistorical advantage in that their western flank is secure. They do not have to deal with Balkan or Bulgar uprisings/attacks, nor with the Normans that were barking at Greece's door, or even with the court intrigues that plagued them; thus they have it much better than their real-world counterparts.

I must agree with you,well said!
This actually shows that ERE army was powerful on the contrary with the leadership and civil wars that ruined it in RL

[GrandViZ]

I'v searched for a topic discussing this but i couldnt find one, it seems that in every campaign the turkish sultanate gets crushed by a combination of ERE and Armenian forces. And there also the occassional georgian invasions and the crusaders going through Anatolia.

Is this going to be addressed in version 1.5? Looks like its going to take more than the fourth crusade to weaken the Eastern Roman Empire.

We have taken measures for 1.5 to make the Turkish Sultanate more competitive, at least when played by the AI. Although this doesn't mean, that turkish success in Asia Minor is guaranteed, it should be observed more frequently.

[Emperor of The Great Unknown]

i don't think its a matter of making the turks strogner it's of making ERE weaker.

we should leave them with very little money because in real life manuel taking half of the penninsula cost him alot of money and the ERE was in debt by the end of his life. also upkeep cost for ERE soilder sshould be higher so that they don't spam armys.

[Bull]

i don't think its a matter of making the turks strogner it's of making ERE weaker.

we should leave them with very little money because in real life manuel taking half of the penninsula cost him alot of money and the ERE was in debt by the end of his life. also upkeep cost for ERE soilder sshould be higher so that they don't spam armys.

All wars cost money, it should not be more expensive for ERE to make war than other factions.

Upkeep of ERE units are not cheap as it is. The akoulouthoi with very poor stats cost 120, the skutatoi cost 200 yet has lower attack than other comparable spearmen, the medium swordsmen are 300 yet is arguably the worst medium swordsmen in the whole game. The redeeming features of the ERE army is their elites, which ALL cost 450 and doesn't come into play until very late into the game. Increasing the global upkeep of ERE units would be rather unfair to the ERE player.

I think a better way to simulate the internal strife and corruption which marred the ERE would be by scripting, such as the money script. May be the money script can exclude ERE so that they cannot afford to spam cheap spearmen which can trounce turkish horsearchers in autocalc?

[Achilla]

Turks need to stop spamming countless HA-heavy armies. I know horse archers are cool, especially if you are the player (to abusing extent, too), but AI needs to make armies compromised of durable infantry, dismounted archers/crossbowmen, heavy cavalry and all kind of horse skirmishers. You can't just expect the Turks to win flawed autocalc if they just produce armies compromised in more than half of the horse archers in beginning of the game.

[The Noble Lord]

That's the beauty in playing the Turkish Sultanate, it gets so hard that you just don't know what to
do any more and it pushes you to triple your efforts. In playing that campaign you do get the feeling
that AI gets so tough, almost impossible. But thats the good thing actually. I wish that other factions
were challenging and hard as the Turkish Sultanate is.

[Emperor of The Great Unknown]

well upkeep should be increased even more i know there expensive but ERE gets loads of money anyway and if your a human player ere should be difficult there at there decline right now where ere is is the best ere got in history. Plus all they recruited was mercenarys and european soilders. upkeeps should ruin the Eastern Roman Empire.

[GrandViZ]

Just as a reminder. BC 1.5 will feature a completely reworked recruitment and economy model, that is dramatically different from the original release version.

Here some key features:

Recruitment and upkeep costs for all factions are generated based on a common ruleset, that takes nearly all unit stats into account. Thus, BC 1.5's recruitment system will be far more realistic and balanced compared to previous versions.

As a result the recruitment and upkeep costs will reflect the combat efficiency of an army far better than before. You will also notice, that quality has its price!

Second, recruitment rules no longer punish factions that have a small unit roster. In BC 1.0 the faction with the biggest unit roster had automatically a higher manpower, because of the fact, that refresh rates for units were defined separately for each unit.

With BC 1.5 we will introduce a new system, that takes into account the number of units available to a faction at each building level, and sets the refresh rates accordingly. Thus, settlements of equal size will also provide equal manpower regardless of the number of units available.

[clandestino]

Speaking of Turkish sultanate I would like to see some spear units in their roster, I realise that they didn't use spearmen very much but I can't go with the fact that they haven't used any spearmen at all ( except militia units ).

I think the original poster means that the AI turkish sultanate gets crushed rather than him/her.

Cheers.

[DrNikola2006]

I actually came up with an idea to solve the ERE problem, because I was bored. Emergent factions! Bump up the chance for ERE armies and cities to rebel, and when they rebel, give them the old ERE Rebels tag from Barbarian Invasion! You could probably do the same with that other superpower of the east, the Kwarezhm empire, which (every time I've played a BC game) always conquers almost the entirety of Persia, then swats the Mongols like a pesky fly.